Allen, I knew this about you. I knew that you wouldn't respond to it. That is why I did. Honestly Saffie probably already regrets it. Cause I know she is actually nice.
I know your MO. Your smart...
Thanks June.
I will admit I have typed out some choice remarks on the odd post in this thread, but I found the maturity to cancel rather than hit submit... it was a tough choice at times given the commentary I was reading at the time.
Oh good lord. YOU'RE COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT, LOTUS! This is HARDLY a random group! This is a group of people who have actually gone thru these various, godawful experiences in their lives, and this is what they're reporting!
If you have a problem with it, take it up with Harley. You're shooting the messengers. As for me, I think I'll head down the road apiece and help a newbie. Much less shrill over there.
Puppy
The absence of logic when assessing a post can lead to some terrible misinterpretations clearly.
I am finding this thread to be showing similar characteristics to infidelity :
1. A lot of heated viewpoints 2. A lot of mud-slinging 3. Lack of care in reading/listening before reply 4. Misrepresentations of what was originally said 5. Backpeddling when "caught" 6. Partisan posting 7. The need to step OUT of the thread merely to protect oneself and the other posters 8. And a hungry compusion to return to see what stage the drama has descended to after a short time away...
I should have stayed away from this thread... its dangerous to a person's health.
In the words of Rodney King.... "can't we all just get along"....
*snicker*
M38, H37 S3, S7 Together 15 yrs Married 8 yrs Bomb July 2008 Inhouse separation "I hate you" "We are over" (too many times to count) Reconciled Sept 2009 (still worth it)
How ironic that I have this music from Wicked playing in the background:
""...Think of celebrated heads of state or specially great communicators did they have brains or knowledge? Don't make me laugh!
They were popular! Please - It's all about popular! It's not about aptitude It's all the way you're viewed So it's very shrewd to be very very popular like me!
The main point Harley was making was not to dismiss the pain of rape or other violent crime... his intention in the context of the lecture was to put infidelity into the right perspective... to put it in a group with violent crimes emphasizes his point - its not beautiful, or romantic, or fun... infidelity inflicts a great deal of PAIN on people.
THAT was where he goes with that introductory remark later on in the lecture.
His point is to characterize it as emotional violence... similar to belittling someone in public or bullying someone into feeling so worthless they consider suicide as an escape.
I get this Allen. I think most of us do. I am just surprised at where in the list of attrocities he placed infidelity.
As someone who did try to commit suicide due to my H's infidelity, I still think I would rank someone sexually abusing my child as more stressful. It would have a different reaction in me as I would want to be there for my child....not end my life......but I think the pain may be even greater.I think I would still feel worthless as I wouldn't have protected my child. I just think the way it is put is slightly dramatic - especially considering those who have been through infidelity know how much it hurts when you still care for your S.
My sister however showed complete indifference when her H cheated - so I guess we all react differently.
I am interested though to know if Harley's comments come from women only OR a mixture of men and women.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
I don't get on the boards much anymore as our marriage is progressing nicely, so when I took a look at this thread and saw the compliment from Puppy, I just had to respond.....thanks Pup.
For those of you who never read my sitch....I was a regular on the Infidelity board a couple years ago. I've since moved on to Piecing and yes, our marriage was saved.
I'll only speak to my situation and what I've read (Harley, Glass) and what Steven Harley said to me during our counciling sessions.
In my situation, my W was terribly addicted to OM (and yes, I believe most A's are an addiction). Even after she knew that OM had moved on to another woman and made it fairly evident to her that he had moved on, she still was convinced that when our youngest son graduated from H.S. (two years from then) that OM would be waiting for her. OM began distancing himself when I exposed to his W, but my W was convinced that when they divorced, which process had begun after I let her know what was going on (OM had 4 A's during their marriage that she knew about and a couple more she suspected) that she could divorce me and they'd live happily ever after.
Once I knew OM had moved on, I began trying to outshine him. Didn't work. W perceived me as a wuss. She's told me that since we reconciled. She told me that she didn't have any respect for me because I was letting her treat me that way. So after 4 months of trying to outshine OM and me finding evidence that W was continuing to try to get together with OM, even after she told me it was over, I finally grew a set, made an appointment with a lawyer and told my grown children why I was going to divorce their mother.
My telling the kids was what woke her up. W came to me a day after I told the kids and said she would try to make our marriage work and that she'd give it until our son graduated from H.S. I told her that if I found any contact between her and OM, I would file immediately.
That was the beginning of NC. And it still took her over a year before I began to see real changes in her. I read a week or so ago where Sandi (Hi Sandi!) told another man posting here that it took her well over a year to get over her OM. And I can attest to it taking that long with my W. It still took another 6 months after I began seeing those changes in my W before she finally broke down and told me she didn't know what the F she was thinking, that she loves me and had always loved me. That was 7 months ago. There's still little bumps in the road and I wouldn't say we're completely recovered, but we're pretty darn close.
So...do I think that what I've seen described as the "little bo peep" method can work? Yes, but in my humble opinion, by the time that method works, the LBS has had more than they can take and has moved on. There's just too much disrespect that goes on for a person to take it for long.
In Harley's method, you try to outshine the OP for a period of time. For women it's recommended you try for no more than 6 weeks, for men 6 months. Exposure to the spouse, your kids and anyone else that can have influence on the wayward is to be done during this first time period. And if the spouse involved in the A hasn't ended it by that time, you separate and go completely dark and let the A run it's course. When the A ends (which it most likely will), the thought is that you'll still have enough feelings for your spouse that you'll be open to giving your marriage a try.
Personally, I don't see a lot of conflict in MWD's advice and Harley's advise on these points. On the exposure, yes, but the gist of it isn't a whole lot different. MWD recommends LRT and Harley recommends separation and going completely dark on your spouse. The LRT is basically the same thing.
Wow, that was more than I intended to write. I just know for me and in the literature I've read and in my sessions with S. Harley, if you let the A run it's course without some stong stands against it, even if your spouse comes back and wants to try, you'll probably be too far gone to want to try yourself.
And yes, I believe there's a gender difference too. I read somewhere, and I know Puppy likes to say it, for a woman to love a man, there has to be respect and most women won't respect a man who's letting her treat him like chit (my W included).
And I'll say one last thing that I'm sure will generate a chit storm of responses....In all the time I've read on this board and the MB board, the people that protest the strong stances the most are the people who have had or are having an A themselves. I've seen them repeatedly say that if their spouse had given them enough time, they would have returned to the marriage. I'm sure that can work, but most of what I've read (and my own experience) leads me to believe that by the time that happens, you just don't have the energy or inclination to give your marriage a shot.
I'll close with, everyone who comes here wants the same thing. Marriages to be saved. Everyone is free to accept or reject the advise given to them. And of course, everyone's opinion is colored by their own experiences. So I guess I would say, I agree with Lotus that you have to weigh everything that you're advised to do by people on these message boards and make the best decision for YOU. Heck, even someone like me who agrees with the "Ghandi" method disagrees wtih some of the advise that other proponents of the method suggest.
H4U.
Hope4us
Me - 49, W 49 S22 & S18 Dday 9/4/07 W claims NC 4/7/08 8/29/09 - Divorce Busted. Lots to work through, but we're going to make it.
I get this Allen. I think most of us do. I am just surprised at where in the list of attrocities he placed infidelity.
I am interested though to know if Harley's comments come from women only OR a mixture of men and women.
No, you aren't getting it, your comments make it clear you are thinking without listening first.
He is GROUPING offensive crimes.. he is NOT putting them in any specific ORDER OF OFFENCE...
The object is to put infidelity into a VIOLENT CRIME CATEGORY and OUT of the Harlequin Romance category so to speak.
Everyone is getting way to fixated on which one is MORE offensive.. they are ALL OFFENSIVE...
The problem is you have to EXPERIENCE infidelity to fully understand how offensive it is... unlike these other crimes.
Jumping on something that isn't even there (a ranking of which is most painful) is not relevant to his lecture, nor is it something he was intending at all...
I have said enough about this point... anyone can actively misread anything anyone has typed and turn it into mudslinging... I am not wasting my time defending this point of his further... any additional misinterpretations to it from this point are a tragedy.. but I have people I can be helping and I do not have time for this.
It's great to hear your update and to hear a schedule of how to handle all of the recommendations. It makes a lot of sense. Particularly when it is backed up with a successful experience!
