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Well, two weeks in a row now my wife has taken the kids to an event where the OM was. This time it was with a work friend who invited them to watch his hobby group. This occurred right after I attended an event on the same day with her and the kids, after which she thanked me for coming.

No question she knew the OM would be there. I'm not going to be naive about that. She is blatantly breaking an agreement we had where the kids would not be exposed to him. Just like a teenager who understands the rules and says "I don't care, I'm going to do it anyway." She is going to make any excuse to see the OM, even if the kids are with her.

This just shows she is doing nothing to limit exposure to him. I don't care about her actions when she is alone; I have no control over that. It just means we are nowhere near reconciliation since she won't break away from seeing him. I just think it is BS she involves the kids as well.

From all I've read, backed up by things Puppy has written as well, withdrawal "clocks" reset to zero with every exposure. Her circle of friends is going to keep her there, since they are all work friends of the OM as well.

I let last week go without saying anything. I have said that since we are separated, I don't have any leverage to play right now. I don't plan on confronting her about this most recent violation but I will keep it in my back pocket for when she makes a request of me (such as changing our arrangement with days we have the kids). I will tell her agreements require trust on both sides, and she has shown that she cannot honor any agreement.

We're coming up on the one year mark of her EA, with no real signs of it burning itself out. I get encouraged when I read things that say affairs tend to run their course within 6 months to a year, but I think that is just giving me false hope in this case.

Prayer and my own personal strength are all I have right now. My gut still tells me to hang in there, but sometimes I worry that my perseverance and refusal to give up may cloud my perception of reality, and may prolong this situation.

I keep thinking of the Stockdale paradox that coach always talks about. To me that means that I cannot expect any progress, I just have to remember that I will prevail in the end. Setting timetables and expectations runs against that thinking, and I don't think I am doing that. It is just very, very frustrating. I guess I should look at this latest development as par for the course, and to expect more of the same.

I think ultimatums are bad ideas unless you are farther down the road than you are. I mean if you were truly ready to file for d or else, then I'd say okay. but your "agreement" seems more like you imposing your will on her. I'm NOT defending her, okay? But you speak of agreements and I think of mutually beneficial terms that both consent to without duress. Not what you seem to be describing. I mean if She truly consented would you have this problem? Also what do the kids actually know? Are you highlighting and calling attnetion to something they might have missed otherwise? Are you making it worse, at lest for them? I'm throwing this all out for you to consider...

I guess the OM doesn't impress me much as a threat to you, nor do her actions seem to be the actions of a woman who doesn't care about the future with you, but she strikes me as if she feels she's not truly crossing her own line, and therefore to her, you are overreacting...I'm guessing. But she made positive comments to you so perhaps she's measuring things so what are you accomplishing by whining and getting mad so often? I'm betting OM acts fun and pleasant (or crazy and paranoid so it's better to contrast with his negatives and not show her any, correct? I mean-recall the goal here...) I definitely do feel you give this stuff way too much focus. Sorry but that's how I see it.

Look, She was in an area where OM was, AND where there were "witnesses" who'd tell you if something wildly inappropriate happened, right? A part of me has the urge to say "so what?" What if, until if and when that happens, you just drop this?

Your approach is NOT working. That's clear. To me, it also makes you look bad, imo. So leave this alone and be the best man you can be and make the choice clear to her. I wonder if you muddy the waters with your temper about this...

j-

Thanks for the reply 25. My next post will journal a conversation we had today which will address some of the points you made.

Long story short, I tend to assume the worst from my W just because that is what the last year has conditioned me to do. Being lied to, deceived and having agreements broken completely changed my approach to "giving her the benefit of the doubt".

As I posted before, I'm working on this, as I am almost always wrong when I assume the worst.

I know nothing wildly inappropriate happened in the times my kids were exposed to the OM. More later.

Journaling:

Cutting to the chase: My W and I agreed to go on a date.

I'm not reading too much into this, and I plan on taking it waaaaay slow.

So how in the hell did this come about? Much like the way sausage is made; not pretty but the end product is pretty good.

W stopped over to drop off the weekend laundry from the kids' visit. She took the opportunity during some small talk at the kitchen table to segue into discussing her desire to change the kids' visitation schedule.

I listened to her proposal, she asked me to consider it, and take some time to think about it if I needed to. I told her simply "no". I like the current schedule that we both agreed to, and secondly I have no incentive to agree to an alteration or even compromise proposed by her since she has not honored any of our prior agreements. At which point I brought up the most recent violation of the past two weeks exposure of the kids to the OM.

There was a lot of talk after that, so I will do my best to summarize some key points and words said:

-- W viewed my going "dark" (not her words but she was addressing those tactics) as me completely rejecting her reaching out to me.

-- W says even though I have not asked her about it, she has cut off contact with OM with the exception of a phone call in December and a lunch last week. The lunch was her giving up on me after her "reaching out" showed I had no interest. She touched a lot on emails she sent when she was on vacation (which I documented in earlier posts) that I did not respond to.

She also mentioned that she had no idea the OM would be at the two events over the last 2 weeks. She said that one of the people from Saturday's event said the OM hadn't been there in months.

-- She stated "I have always loved you and my love has never changed."

-- In referring to the early days following the bomb, she said through tears "You should have fought for me".

-- She was angry that I "did nothing" to show her I loved her or cared for her during the time she said she agreed to cut off her EA and moved to her apartment. I told her that when she violated the NC boundary after agreeing to it, I just assumed she was back in her full blown EA. I said I am not going to pursue you or buy you gifts or write you letters when you have given your heart to another man. I have way too much self respect for that. Besides, you said you needed to get away from both of us to figure yourself out. I was giving you the space you asked for.

-- She mentioned our kids said things this weekend like "Why do you and Daddy hate each other? I want you to come back home and be married to Daddy again."

-- I told her she did not see acts of pursuit (not the term I used but DBers know what I mean) from me because at no time did she indicate she wanted to try reconciliation. She said "Why do you think I reached out to you when I was on vacation?" I told her I was confused by that since a couple of weeks earlier she told me she has no hope for us as a couple. She said she felt "deflated" when she reached out and got no response, and now is no longer interested.

-- I told her I have always been open to reconciliation if she was open to it as well, under one condition: all OM contact ceases. She said emphatically "I DID that! What more did you want me to do?" I told her she never showed any indication of wanting to reconcile. Then she went back to the emails sent from vacation.

She's a very confused woman dealing with depression and some hard emotion, that's for sure. I empathized and validated her a lot. She made some vague statements that referenced the future as if we would still be together. Sometimes she was just all over the place.

Saying she considered her vacation emails "reaching out" and in so many words my lack of response shot her down and killed that interest seemed like a manipulative tactic and I wasn't going for it.

Toward the end, I stated matter-of-factly "I have always been open to trying to reconcile under the condition of zero OM contact. If you are open to trying, we can start by going out sometime. Are you open to that?"

She replied "yes".

She took offense when I reiterated a zero contact reminder as she was leaving, and I probably harped on it too much. She was mad and rather childishly said (through tears) "OK, I'm not interested in going out now. For just that reason."

She feels she has done a good job of not contacting the OM. Given this she does not want to live under a police state where if she is out somewhere and the OM happens to show up, she's screwed. "I don't want to live that way."

I told her I don't consider that inappropriate contact and would never treat her that way. You know what is inappropriate and what isn't. She nodded her head at this.

So I guess I beat that dead horse once too much. She seemed sincere in her statements about NC. I just assumed that she was business as usual in the EA.

I apologized and we hugged, so we got past that. Now I am going to plan a date of some sort.

Unreal turn of events. Yesterday I was a million miles from any hope of reconciliation. Today my wife accepted a date.

I gained a lot of strength from one of the hymns at church yesterday. I will post the lyrics if I can find them.

Like I said, I will take this really slow. But I am going to take some time and thank God for this small step forward. He really can reach even the hardest of hearts.

Well it sounds good, but just take it very slow and with a grain of salt.

I suggest something very small at first, like getting a cup of coffee or a quick lunch. See how that goes, then do something a little more engaging.

If you make it to going out with her a third time, then do something that will excite her emotions. Like go to a comedy club or an amusement park. Something that will give her that adrenaline high.

Then soften your heart and open your heart, and see what happens. No more about what she is willing to do or show. Just all about what you will do and risk and show, okay? How about that??
I'm glad you are having a date. Don't blow it with ANY conditions or threats or bringing up the past, which I fear you are not able to do. Seriously, I feel a backslide is surrounding you b/c every time you see her, you dump more on her. More shame, more "violations" and more of the past "violations"...how can she imagine a happy m to you going forward? That's the real challenge you have b/c you don't seem to be doing it in your heart so how can she imagine it? You need to visualize it as a happy m, which requires you to let go of the past...for good. that means you can't bring it up again when she makes her next mistake. The past slate is clean and you start over. Do you get this?

If you can't let whatever the heck this "EA" was go, then it's pointless to waste her time or yours dragging out the m, and holding the sword of Damacles over her head the rest of her life which is what she says she fears!! AND Btw, I BELIEVE HER....Drop this and move on...or learn to let go and forgive...you decide.
j-

Thank you for the comments 25. I agree with what you say with regard to how she needs to be treated AS LONG AS THE EA IS OVER. You have to understand the history of my situation to get where I was coming from yesterday.

I am taking the "tough love" approach now because of what has happened previously in our situation. Believe me, I tried giving my wife all the love she said she was lacking, only to have her cake eat for months. I am not trying to punish her at all. I want to show her how much love I have for her, but I'm not going to do that with a woman who is keeping another man on the side.

If you read through my prior thread, you will get a better understanding of how we arrived here.

All I'm trying to do is what has worked with regards to DBing. Reconciliation cannot take place without trust and while an affair is ongoing. I'm not punishing her or retaliating. I'm just telling her I am willing to build a beautiful relationship and correct every error of the past as long as she is open to it. She will show she is open by dropping every link to the OM. That's all. That is not unreasonable, and I think the sources on this site that everyone regards as "pros" in this area (Puppy, Robx, coach, and the rest) would agree.

I totally respect your opinion and I'm not blowing you off at all. I just think you haven't seen the whole story here.

My wife has backtracked before. I just don't want to be played for a patsy again. The only time I have seen any progress is when I refuse to allow any cake eating.

Well what a difference a day makes.

W asked to come over to chat tonight. Said after a long period of thought about yesterday's conversation, she had a revelation of self awareness in that she is coming to grips with and becoming comfortable with moving on. Said what could be signs from God, such as a song she heard on the radio shortly after her "A-HA" moment, as well as immediate relief from stress related abdominal pain, even her horoscope, pointed to Him being in agreement. She said she knows she could be wrong about those, but it seemed strange that there would be such coincidences.

Basically told me she doesn't know what is really missing in our relationship to be able to put it into words, she just knows that "it" is not there. She knows "it" when she sees "it" and knows that "it" is "out there". I guess in other men.

She said if she came back she could see this happening to her again with someone else.

It was a long talk, mainly me saying that I completely understood where she stood and that I was clear on her feelings, and that I really had not seen anything different in that area since this all started.

I just asked her what she thought the definition of faith was, and asked if she trusted God. She said she has faith but doesn't know if she trusts Him yet. I was just trying to get her to consider that doing what God prescribes with regards to marriage would require both faith and trust in Him. If she didn't trust Him to take care of her if she came back to me, then I get where she could see that getting out was really all that would make sense to her.

I told her that I have faith and trust in God, and that I truly believe that no matter how far gone she seems now, that somehow, some way, at some point God is going to surprise her. And at that point she will see things differently. I said I don't like what it is putting me through, but that God requires me to be patient and that is what I'm doing.

She understood. I think she felt a little frustrated in that she seems to want to get a cooperative move on in getting a divorce. I told her I think that would be a mistake, but that she is free to make that decision.

We've had this conversation before; most of her points seemed just like the ones she made when dropping the bomb almost a year ago. It was just strange to see her flip flop from saying "You should have fought for me" just yesterday, and today saying she is now completely at peace with going against God's law and what everyone else is telling her.

I expected to hear what I heard tonight, and I think I gave her some things to really think about. She initiated a hug before leaving, crying and saying "I'm sorry". I just told her don't be, you can't help what you feel.

She said she'd give up anything to feel differently with the exception of our kids. I just told her to be open to surprises and not to close off her heart.

So I guess I'm back to where I was 2 days ago. Yippee. I still trust God, despite this setback, but man its so tough. And I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt.

This is the same quote that Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart used to define "pornography." Stewart wrote in his short concurrence that "hard-core pornography" was hard to define, but that "I know it when I see it."

Maybe that's what she was talking about when she said "it."

"I just told her don't be, you can't help what you feel."

Uh yes she can. It's called free will. It's called choice. If she CHOOSES to stay in the relationship and acts on it, the feelings will follow.

With all this talk of God, have you thought of going to Retrouvaille?

Okay I think the biggest problem with your conversation with her was that you were validating some of the wrong things. After everything she was rambling on about, just say, "I see why you might have felt that way."

Never say, "I understand your feelings" because truth is you don't. All you want to do is agree that she views her perspective a certain way. Then stick to your guns and say "I believe..."

Your W sounds like she's going through a major midlife crisis and is using God to okay her childish behavior. Well last time I checked, your W was an adult. With adult responsibilities. God isn't going to show her the way because she doesn't want to be found. She's fine being confused right now. So let her be. Think of her as the Prodigal Son. If she wants to come back home, she knows where to find you.

All the stuff about how she was "reaching out" to you over her vacation, then turning around and saying that she doesn't know if she can trust God yet. Give me a break.

God is just God. You take Him or leave Him. He doesn't have to prove anything. It's up to us to prove that we are worthy of Him. So I wouldn't get into the God issue anymore with your W. Get her away from thinking about divine intervention and more about how she is going to fix the mortal mess that she made.