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Starting a new thread as requested. Link to prior thread is in my signature below.

W back from vacation, got me a gift, which was nice. Overall amicable, sharing pictures and stories of her trip. Asked to take the kids today since they are off from school, and I said OK.

Nothing really to post today as it is business as usual.

Here's text from the original post on my old thread along with a brief summary of my situation for reference:

Long story short, I'm Catholic and at the time of marriage, my wife was an atheist. This was not a deal breaker to me as she is a wonderful woman and mother who would do anything for anyone. I figured once our kids got involved in growing up Catholic (she agreed we would raise them Catholic, otherwise it would have been a deal breaker) she would feel somehow she was missing out on something and it might get her to come around. It didn't help that I was pretty strong in my beliefs and every time the subject came up she'd get frustrated when I would refute her arguments against existence of God (we're both scientifically educated through college, so I'd use a lot of fact based debate and "reasonable doubt" points). So I just let it go to see what happened over the years.

Well, she found God, through the OM she works with. He heard of her atheism and wanted to find out why (he's Christian), and took it on himself to see if he could convince her otherwise. Complication - he is in a miserable marriage with kids and has been for years. They commiserated about each others marriage problems and - voila - fell into an EA.

Now her confusion - she found God through OM, so OM must have been sent to her from God, and meant for her to be with him. He makes her happier than she has ever been, etc. etc. just like all other EAs. She thinks God brought myself and her together to produce our wonderful kids and now He's going to provide her with her own happiness.

Our marriage was Christmas card perfect on the outside, but like many LBHs the underlying unhappiness she was feeling was not apparent due to my being oblivious and explaining her behaviors away on other things - depression, aging, being a mom. I am a "Clint Eastwood" type, always feeling I needed to be strong, like most men, and was not a big sharer of feelings although they have always been strong for her. Everyone, even her mother, sees me as a super dad and husband for all I do, but emotionally, I've been lacking. I've made great strides in this area, but like many hear, "It's too late."

A Brief History of [Pigskin's] Time:

--W suffers from depression but thinks it is "situational", on meds and counseling

--W wanted separation from the date of bomb drop to "figure out what I want"

--Pigskin resists separation out of fear EA will escalate

--Made usual newbie mistakes during first few weeks

--Attended Retrouvaille and all post sessions but W was still deep in EA

--Attempted DB tactics but still too much Mr. Nice Guy

--Finally took DB/detaching seriously after all else failed

--Delivered ultimatum that EA stops or W moves out

--W loses job where OM works

--W moves out, says OM contact has ended but has no hope for R

And now you are caught up...

Keep up the good work.

How friendly was she when she came back?

Not hugging friendly but kind of like normal healthy interaction; no storm clouds with her today. Which is nice.

W was in a very good mood yesterday when dropping kids back off from her day with them.

I was on the couch reading and she sat down next to me to tell me about what our daughter did as she tucked her in (demonstrating by putting my face in her hands in an "awww sweetie" type way).

She lingered a bit while getting ready to go, finally saying "alrighty then" to signal her exit. I said goodbye and thanked her again for the gift she got me from her trip and turned back to my book. She walked over and kissed me on the top of the head and then left.

While seemingly minor stuff, this is actually unusual in my W's current state. Unsolicited physical contact and kisses. I don't react to it at all. I'm not rude, I just treat it as if it was coming from someone I'm not interested in, kind of "changing the subject" in a non verbal way.

I'll take small positive steps when I can get them...

Those are definitely positive, so keep doing what you're doing. See when you pulled back, she started coming towards you.

There may be a pattern here.

W stopped by the house to pick up a couple of things and we chatted about random stuff. Again she came inches close to me a couple of times and held my face in her hands demonstrating how she gets my son to pay attention to her in a nice way without her having to yell.

It felt uncomfortable; almost inappropriate, like if a pretty woman at the office got a little too far in your personal space. You like it, but it's uncomfortable.

I may not be projecting as good an image as I thought, as she asked "How are you doing?". I replied "Fine. How are you doing?" She said she was good, and was asking about me because I seemed a little grumpy and my son said I was grumpy when she talked to him on the phone. I reiterated "I've actually been great!" and left it at that.

Now I've been actually quite happy and content, and have been cheerful and smiling when she was around so I'm not sure where she came up with this. My son is always trying to play off of the other parent when one hands down a punishment (it never works as we ALWAYS back each other up) so maybe it seems to him that I've been grumpy but I've actually been trying to enforce a little discipline around the house.

In any case, the storm clouds do not seem to be hovering over my wife at the moment. She's been pleasant, even looks pretty happy, whereas other times she walks in the house looking like someone asked her to demonstrate what a b**ch would look like...

Pigskin,

Couple questions for discussion about faith and your sitch...I apologize for the length of this but it's really interesting that your w's taken this "approach"...First--on R's, have you read "The Five Love Languages"? I suggest that one b/c the mind reading won't happen so much and if it does, it'll be way more accurate.
As for the underlying issues that are raised by all this--b/c we do hear a lot about WAS's finding their NEW soul mates...

Have you read the book, "Blue Like Jazz"? I ask b/c it deals with a lot of religious beliefs and questions and how they work in our society and it's a series of short essays, well written and often funny. I do not agree with all that he says, fyi, but he discusses how people can misuse religion to suit themselves. And the flaws in doing it. I'm paraphrasing, but
the author explores how when a person quotes scripture a lot in an argument, it's to "win the argument" (ego!) rather than to show God's love, or the power of redemption.

I'm Catholic (or try to be) as well and cannot tell you how many Protestant friends have taken it upon themselves to "convert" me or cure me, b/c they don't think I'm saved, etc. They quote a lot of scripture to me, usually with raised voices, and it seems often to be an ego driven discussion that always makes me feel defensive and has persuaded me of nothing but how lousy/ego driven friend they are. It doesn't seem to be coming from a place of love.

In fact, come to think of it, I don't think I've ever witnessed any person being converted or moved, by someone "arguing" and using the bible. It's not as if we'd suddenly slap our foreheads and say "Now that you have shown me the errors of my ways and how sinful I am, I am now a believer!! THANK YOU!"

Instead why can't they just be glad I find comfort in my faith, and leave it alone? Also, I have never tried to convert them. And I think there's an anti-Catholic bigotry (under rated imo) and ignorance, as I rarely find their objections to be theologically reasonable. I mean, I do have some issues with the Church, (but they are not deal breakers obviously) but ironcially, the objections these believers raise, are often not even accurate...but I digress

My h is not Catholic (he's Orthodox-close) and it wasn't a deal breaker.
I have to say the one belief system I could not have married into, (other than one that advocates killing me for being an infidel) would have been atheism. I mean, I don't get it. Pigskin, I don't mean to nag you about it, okay?

It would have made me very uncomfortable in part b/c (aside from M being a sacrament), just as a Christian, I think God is part of M & marriage is such a spiritual connection, I'd wonder if my spouse could ever feel as deeply about me or us, if he weren't a believer in God.

The utter purposeless of life through the eyes of an atheist, would have been so depressing to me. The lack of a moral compass that I recognize, would have been disconcerting as well. Yes - I know there are morally sound atheists--but for me, knowing the basis of their ethics is foundational, as is their ability to see when they are rationalizing...
I do worry that non-believers are able to rationalize more since they don't have an "absolute" frame of reference on anything.

And they are not used to their faith/convictions/beliefs being challenged and explored, and perhaps then more firmly held, or changed. IMHO...

Also I wonder about your w's new found faith. How strong is it really? Does she attend Mass, or some type of service regularly? Has she read any C.S. Lewis? Have you?

I'd mention to your w, IF THE SITCH/CONVO ARISES... that there are people in this world who claim their religion justifies murder; so just b/c someone is a "believer" doesn't guarantee morality in their choices. Just makes the self serving nature of their rationalizations a tad harder to debate.

I bet there's a special place after we die, for those who use God to explain their selfishness, and worse..I disagree with those who say "God/religion has been used to justify the murder of millions..." b/c it isn't God or religion that kills, it's hate.

Similarly, it isn't God who wants your w to be with OM...

Yet if you read CS Lewis's "Screwtape Letters" you'll see how likely it is that your w would be in this very sitch. Yes this is predictable! And not hopeless... In that book, an "apprentice devil" is assigned a human soul to try and take to "their side", and he gets his lessons from his uncle, a "master" devil of sorts. (The book is actually witty & an easy read for CS Lewis, who is considered a great theologian AND children's author--"Chronicles of Narnia", etc)....but it makes great points without being too dense).

In the book the uncle devil advises the apprentice to make sure to exploit any doubts or questions the human has about faith/God, and to hone in on any hypocrisies in other humans as evidence that there must NOT be "a God" b/c if there were, there'd be NO questions.....or doubts....or sin....--leaving out the whole free will thing. AND temptation is hugely emphasized...have you read it?

I strongly urge you to consider that book, as well as "Mere Christianity" also by CS Lewis but with an intellectual's approach if that's where she's most comfortable with these topics. Rabbi Kushner wrote "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" and that was moving and sheds light on a lot of the issues that come up, for all of us really.

I do see hope in your sitch but only read the beginning month (several pages of posts) and then the summary and the past week.

What lead to her moving out? And Are you still doing the Retrovaille program? That's a big sign to me. And We found that truly helpful. When we let it slide, IT SHOWS...the most hope I've had for our M since the whole cycle began several years ago, was after that program. We once had a very good strong M and a great connection. Because of that, and other's faith in our M, we worked harder than some couples who maybe never felt quite that way even long ago. But when we attended Retrovaille I just wanted some tools to complete the "piecing" part and to let go of the past. It did that and much more. For us. But we do have to work the program ongoing. B/C one weekend only got us back on track and in touch with what we once had; we glimpsed the couple we once were and thought "OMG, we might be able to get IT back..." but for us, it only stays with us as long as we do the program. It didn't cure us, it's more like a "treatment" we have to keep taking. Make sense?

j-

Thanks for your comments 25yearsmlc.

My wife took the "God led me here" approach with regard to her EA early on, when she was brand new to Christianity. I don't think she believes that now; she has admitted that what she was/maybe still is doing was a sin and was wrong. But she is big into believing that God forgives even the most terrible sinner, and feels that if she ended our marriage and took up with the OM, she would be forgiven for it.

I'll try to address the questions from your post:

First--on R's, have you read "The Five Love Languages", "Blue Like Jazz"
I bought Love Languages for my wife - interestingly before she dropped the bomb she asked me if I could guess what her love language was (this is where I got the idea she was interested in the book and got it for her post-bomb. Don't know if she's read it yet - she mysteriously bookmarked right after the page that talks about the "in love" feeling being fleeting and that it will not last. I guess that made her want to stop reading since it probably wasn't what she wanted to hear. I have not read the book yet but intend to.

Haven't read "Blue Like Jazz" but my wife has, recently, I think. Sounds familiar.

And I think there's an anti-Catholic bigotry (under rated imo) and ignorance, as I rarely find their objections to be theologically reasonable. I mean, I do have some issues with the Church, (but they are not deal breakers obviously) but ironcially, the objections these believers raise, are often not even accurate...but I digress
You are absolutely right. No question about it, and I feel the same way about the church. My wife is very anti-Catholic for herself, but still agreed that our kids would be raised Catholic.

The utter purposeless of life through the eyes of an atheist, would have been so depressing to me.
I agree. I don't know how people cope with the inevitable tradgedies of life without a strong faith. I am happy my W has found faith now, as she has said it has done wonders for her in dealing with her current stresses.

Also I wonder about your w's new found faith. How strong is it really? Does she attend Mass, or some type of service regularly? Has she read any C.S. Lewis? Have you?
She attends service at a non-denominational Christian church each week. I don't know how strong her faith is, she is very serious about it though, and getting very involved with her church. However when we used to have relationship talks she would say that she is so new to the Bible and Christianity that she doesn't really know how to model her life on it. She knows it doesn't approve of divorce and infidelity but she has no hope for our relationship in her heart, so this causes inner conflict between what she knows to be right and what she feels.

I don't know if she has read any C.S. Lewis. I have not, but I will look into your recommendations.

I'd mention to your w, IF THE SITCH/CONVO ARISES... that there are people in this world who claim their religion justifies murder; so just b/c someone is a "believer" doesn't guarantee morality in their choices. Just makes the self serving nature of their rationalizations a tad harder to debate.
Going along with what I noted at the top of this post, I don't think she is sticking to this thinking anymore. I think the more she has studied Christianity and the Bible, the less she thinks her situation was created by God. But her heart is still not with me, so what she knows is the "right thing" by God's standards is not what is in her heart. So she questions it.

What lead to her moving out? And Are you still doing the Retrovaille program?
Her refusal to drop the EA led to me telling her she needed to go if she was not going to cease all contact. Ironically she agreed to cease AFTER getting an apartment as a condition of me moving to it on the weekends so she could be home with the kids. But she violated the no contact boundary so I broke off the deal.

We completed the Retrouvaille weekend, all post sessions, and were good about doing the dialoguing exercises throughout. We no longer do anything regarding it now. She never stopped the EA the entire time, so Retro did not have the impact it would have otherwise. We both still feel that it did do a tremendous job in fixing the way we communicate. So that alone made it worthwhile. But she kept thinking at some point a bolt of lightning would appear and snap her out of the feelings in her heart. It never did, obviously, so she felt that the majority of Retro was an empty exercise for her.

If she ever stated to me she wanted to drop all OM related things and work on us (which she has never stated, ever) I would likely suggest that we start doing dialogues again.

Journaling:

Visited some out of town friends yesterday and went out and had a great time. Stayed overnight.

Prior to me getting home, W stopped by the house for some reason, then left me a voicemail asking me about our plans with the kids for Sunday. Lighthearted in tone, but I found interesting that in it she said "You're not here so I don't know if you are out of town or SHACKING UP WITH SOME GIRL so let me know if we are still on for tomorrow."

I have avoided talking to her and just texted a reply. Even if it was a joke, her having that thought in the back of her mind may actually serve me well. We'll see. I don't intend to address the comment at all, and hope she doesn't ask anything about where I was yesterday. I'll probably just say "Out" and quickly change the subject.