There is a lot of distance between saying "Change or leave the house" and begging, pleading, whining.
You say your advice is not "become a prick." Ok, I'll say that it is certainly up to ones interpretation.
By the same token, I am not, nor have I ever, advocated begging, pleading, whining.
And for the record? I'm not sure why your response to my posts always have to include some accusation about my current or past marriage. If you'd like to make an ad hominem attack on me, let's restrict it to just me, instead of attempting to interpret anything about my past or present, especially since you know nothing of me.
The fact is that there is a prevailing, veritable WAVE of posting going on, particularly in newcomers it seems, where just about every person I've read is being advised to become this "strong, confident, self-sufficient" person - which is a wonderful thing, don't get me wrong - by laying down the law with their spouse.
While I agree that there are certainly times and circumstances that warrant such an aggressive approach, this advice seems to ignore the fact that, regardless of the state of the marriage, there is nothing that a spouse can do to compel another spouse to vacate the premises.
Furthermore, going about this approach in the wrong way, which is WAY more than easy to do in the fragile state that most newcomers find themselves in, can do lasting damage by sending the message that the LBS wants nothing to do with the good for nothing WAS.
And while some may applaud that idea, and I'm sure others will twist this around and point out the great need in standing up for yourself, I generally proceed from the assumption that most people are here because they would like to hope they might be able to SAVE a marriage, not blow one up in a matter of weeks.
Because, whether you'd like to believe it or not, while very few of our actions can do anything positive when the WAS is in the throes of the fantasy, there are plenty of things we can do that will convince them that there is absolutely no turning back. Most I am convinced do NOT want to send that message. Especially not so early.
In the end, I agree with much of your advice, but don't agree with the black and white way it is presented. And I don't think it's a positive approach to badger a new person with said advice, and then speak poorly of someone who doesn't immediately heed said advice.
There's room for both.
I don't profess to have all the answers. But I think there's a need for a measured and yet strong approach. It's not necessary to be all or nothing.
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
I would agree with Robx's last post to Mike...take a break...
As to reasoning with a WAW/WAH...there is no reasoning with the unreasonable...BUT...you don't have to be unreasonable yourself...
I agree a strong man is attractive...I also believe there is a fine line between a strong man and unreasonable man...
Mike has a lot of promise...his wife isn't appearing hateful...she is talking to him...
I believe she is reaching out to him in hopes he will make changes...her last ditch effort...she is not going to give up what is making her feel good for the first time in possibly years because he says "I will change"...she wants to see those changes...
OM is married...that will present some complications...it is real easy to say I am going to leave my wife for you and another for him to do it...most likely she will find out he is a jerk before that happens...right now he is telling her what she wants to hear...he is making her feel like a woman, desired, cherished, valued, and worth his time...something that she wasn't getting from her H, until she disclosed her dirty little secret (which I believe was a call for help)...
I believe OM's wife probably has no idea how bad her marriage is...I confronted my H's OW...that pretty much caused the downgrade of their relationship...I don't advocate it but it worked for me...
I think Mike needs to affirm himself as a man by being one...not bullying her...showing her he can change, that is for real, and that he isn't just talking the talk he is walking the walk...given time I think she would take notice (especially when things don't work out with OM, which lets be honest, rarely does it work out)
I was here when Bill arrived...he knows the mistakes that can be made as he made some of them...I believe, like many of us...we learm from our mistakes and try to help others...as I posted on my own page...
A smart person learns from their own mistakes... A wise person learns from the mistakes of others
I am in the camp of those who believe that going in all gangbusters on this WAW is not the way to go...patience is needed, understanding on how she got to feel how she does, the role Mike played in it (not saying she has a right because of it...but it is what it is...you can't change how a person feels after years of rejection), while not encouraging, condoning, or otherwise supporting the EA...you have to walk lightly...show by example...listen and respond...and above all patience patience patience...
There are three sides to every story...we are hearing Mikes...I feel if we heard Wife's there might be lots of advice on what to do about Mike and more sympathy for Wife...and then there is the truth of it all...that is where they will find the answers...and only they can do that...time, time, time...it took 16 years to get here...it isn't going to turn around in a week, month, or even a year...but there is definitely more hope then I have seen with others (Bill included)...I do believe there is hope...IF IT IS HANDLED CORRECTLY
No the "man up" advice did propel me a little bit....
I mis-read it.
I got wrapped into my emotions of my wife having an affair and quickly progressed that to - "even if we do remain together, will I ever be able to trust her?"
I played out the scenario before allowing time and understanding to enter the equation. Like I said people, its what I do and its the biggest issue I need to overcome.
Patience indeed.
Today was a good day - spent the morning staying positive and then spent the next 5 hours wallowing in mental negativity. The good thing is I am 350 miles south from my wife and not in the same house with her.
As a relatively new DB'er, I think the emotional roller coaster the LBS is on the first few months after an EA or PA is discovered or a WAS announces their intention to S or D really prevents us from implementing what works. Our natural response is to pursue, cling and accommodate, which is a total turn off to the WAS but it is normal human nature to do this.
Only when the LBS realizes that the R they had is over anyway (and why would you want to go back to a R that was on the road to failure?) and can step back and listen to what experienced DB'ers are telling us, will there be any chance of saving the M. That's hard to do at first and even when you begin to get it you search for the right balance of acting like a WAS yourself and come off as totally not caring or still caring too much and not going far enough to claim your own independence and confidence to become attractive again.
As for what works, this http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love...ples-counseling affirms to me what Robx, Sandi2, and other veterans are saying in that the WAS and LBS have to "flip their script" so that the LBS is not in the weak, submissive position. It's not just certain vets on this forum that recommend this approach.
Mike...you wife is having an EA...that is equally damaging yet, not quite as bad (in my opinion) in that there is a lot more hope for recovery...the images of your wife actually in bed doing the "deed" with another man can be hard images to erase...but both are emotionally paralyzing to a relationship...
Patience right now is your BEST FRIEND...work on it, breath it, practice it, sleep it, walk it, eat it...got it?
I can tell you that my H was using his "man up" on me before he walked...and I was NOT liking it...and I can tell you that when we decided to reconcile had he kept that attitude I would have not been open to him coming back...because at one point he said he would come home but things were going to be "xyz" and I chaffed at that big time.
Also, remember how patient your wife was you all these years...I think you owe her that same patience to see you changes and for her to respond on them (no I am not saying she has 16 years to figure this out...but I think you get the idea)...it took nearly 3 years for my H and I to get it right...along with 2 divorce filings...
The fact that you are not expressing your wife in fits of anger...the fact that she confessed what was up to you without you catching her...these are in your favor...I truly believe she is trying to send you a message but until she feels safe in the answer (actions)she doesn't want to give up what is making her feel good now (the EA)...BUT if you don't provide the answers (actions) that she needs then she gave you warning that she will move to the next level(PA)...I truly believe she told you this to get a reaction from you...
So, keep working yourself...keep advancing in your work (actions) to make yourself the man YOU want to be...in doing so she will eventually notice...if my H could go 6 mon with zero contact and yet over the phone notice my changes...your wife living in your home with you will notice even the smallest thing...but just make sure these are things you can live with or it will be like a diet...you do good, get where you want, then go back to your old eating habits...that won't work here...you need to make the changes real, part of your life, what you want to be for yourself...and ultimately for your family!
I see a whole lot of hope here as long as you don't push her out the door and into another man's arms...
As for trust again...that is something we all struggle with when we have been lied to, deceived, and cheated on...I was really unsure of this most of all...I knew I could forgive my H...but I really was worried that I couldn't trust him again...but it comes...you get the vibes back that you need and you "just know"...you had love and trust before...you can have it again...
Now remember...breathe...patience...breathe...patience...breathe...patience...
The approach Rob describes is correct for a WAS situation in my opinion....don't misunderstand Bworl or myself. As Im has implied is that implementing this approach after 45 days is to fast. Think about it like a water leak in your house.....you don't call a roofer as soon as you notice the leak. First you walk around and make sure that the kids didn't flood a toilet. That is what a newcomer needs to first (and why I think bringing up this advice here is unproductive) and then once they checked themselves move on to more aggressive techniques.
I believe OM's wife probably has no idea how bad her marriage is...I confronted my H's OW...that pretty much caused the downgrade of their relationship...I don't advocate it but it worked for me... Lin
Actually, it works in MOST situations. Affairs thrive on secrecy; expose it to the light of day, and it usually withers rather quickly.
Also, I've seen where men, particularly, don't want to risk divorce and the career/financial/lifestyle implications of such a family breakup. Exposure works better with the OP is another married man, esp. one with kids.
The approach Rob describes is correct for a WAS situation in my opinion....don't misunderstand Bworl or myself. As Im has implied is that implementing this approach after 45 days is to fast. Think about it like a water leak in your house.....you don't call a roofer as soon as you notice the leak. First you walk around and make sure that the kids didn't flood a toilet. That is what a newcomer needs to first (and why I think bringing up this advice here is unproductive) and then once they checked themselves move on to more aggressive techniques.
I couldn't disagree more strongly.
For every month that an affair is allowed to continue, there is a deepening emotional bond between the affair partners, and a greater chance of it going physical. The longer it continues, the greater the emotional damage to the families affected, including the devastation to the betrayed spouse's self-esteem and even emotional health.
More financial drain on the families, as people in affairs tend to squander marital assets, and then there's legal fees as S and L get actively considered.
More risk of STDs and worse.
I'm not a big fan of the "Little Bo-Peep" approach -- you know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them" and all. Reasonable people can (and do) disagree about exposure, but most agree that if you ARE going to do it, then the time to do it is EARLY ON, not later, when the affair is more entrenched.
People are ADDICTED to affairs, and we underestimate just how strong that addiction is (just Google "PEAs brain love lust" and do some reading on it). It's what made an otherwise sane, intelligent female astronaut drive from TX to FL wearing an adult diaper, rather than stopping for bathroom breaks, so she could get there quicker to avenge her man. The sooner you separate the addict from the source of their addiction, the sooner the two affected families can begin to work on repairing the damage that's been done.
Puppy...Oh, I believe in exposing the affair...I just don't know if contact with the OP is the best way to do it...I know many here say it is best to work on your own side...or to bust it by informing the other spouse...the information I had was OW's number and a friend of OW's number...not knowing who was who I called both...her friend's H was very upset and said his W would be livid with her for using them to watch the kids (they didn't know H was a married man)...and then I got her on the phone and we talked for a long time...of course H warned that "some day" I could call and to deny anything happened...of course they had already been physical...she did lie...but she also cried...told me she felt so guilty...later H said the R pretty much fizzled after that because she didn't like feeling guilty about it all...I had made my point that I had no clue what was going on with H and if the marriage was so bad I desserved at least a chance work things out before we called it quits...that being said, it still takes time to get over someone...she moved on faster then H and soon found another guy, not married...
So I am not advocating which contact to take...I know what worked for me but for some that just drives them into the OP's arms because there is nothing left to lose.
