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HHH,

Just have a minute here and skimmed your thread. Couple thoughts off the top of my head:

BF and I are 35 and no kids. I know it seems discouraging that others have kids to tie them together but it isn't necessary. We're not even married so there was no reason for BF to come back except owning the house together. But he did.

I know it can be confusing knowing what to do when advice seems to be contradictory. I had DB coaching sessions which were helpful in assessing the sitch but ultimately was terrible advice for me.

My recommendation on where to start: who is the person your H fell in love with? Were you more deferential then or were you always independent and strong? It seems many of us lose our sense of self when in a LTR. When I started talking to old friends and thinking about who I used to be I realized that I missed that person and started working on getting back to that.

I wouldn't talk to your H's friend just yet. First you need to figure out who you are and what you can do to be the best HHH possible.

Dear PearlHarbr,
Thank you so much for your kind response and taking the time to read my sitch. I am thrilled for you that your BF came back. Anything you did to encourage this or purely him on his own? Some of the DB seems contradictory in a way...when I 'let go' and focus on myself, I am happier, but I want to do all I can to save this.

Good question about who i was before. It's a little contradictory in a way, i've always been independent and strong, and a 'go-getter' if you will, and i think my husband admired my experience and background (traveled all over, like to explore city, go out to different places, where he was more homebody in a way). At the same time when we met I had a pretty serious health issue, so I was also quite vulnerable in a way and he 'took care of me'. I think he liked being that provider role, but at the same time admired my independence. Fast forward years later, i think he got sick of some of my health issues (nothing serious now, more maintenance and occasionally anxiety) and also saw me as controlling in some ways.

Oddly, going to business school at a very prestigious school, he then became exposed to a 'whole nother world'...new people traveling all the time, lots of parties and opportunities, and in some ways became more the man i liked (and more like me in terms of my background), but went overboard w the ego (lots of attention, you're the best and brightest, etc) and i think it went to his head a bit. Couple that by some of our issues at home (growing lack of intimacy, fighting over family matters, me wanting him to 'step up' in certain ways, he thinking i was hurting his confidence, etc) and he just decided he didn't want to deal anymore.

It's been over 8 months now and with his new apartment he seems like he's so psychologically distanced. He's also been quite nasty lately and comes over now asking me for $$! (when i've shelled out thousands for his tuition and our rent). when i call him on it he tells me i am selfish and that i brought this on myself b/c i was not a 'team-player'. It makes me sick b/c now that he has the big job, pedigree (whiile i supported him this whole time) he wants out. We always said i'd work through bus-school, then when he graduated i'd scale back and we'd start a family. So much for those dreams!

A big issue for me too is do I stay in Massachusetts or move back to CA where my fam/friends are. I'm in our old apt and he's gotten a new one downtown. I want to stay here - partially b/c i didnt think i could handle moving yet - but also b/c i wanted to see if there was hope for this, if he'd go to Retro sessions etc, but he says, 'are you just going to stay here waiting on me?' If this doesn't work out i think i will move b/c i don't have as much of a support system here...not sure what message staying here sends to him.

I've been feeling a bit better while he's out of the country for August, focusing on myself and work and friends and reminding myself of the good in me. But I am heartbroken without him. These issues are also so solveable I truly believe, and I think in some ways learned that yes, i did take him for granted and I have used this time to become a better person. But we see each other so rarely it's hard to show him. I've cried a few times when we've seen each other. Before he left he said he'd want to initiate D when he got back, but I want to try Retro first. He hasn't flat out said no so I hold out a bit of hope.

I think someone talking to him might help make him reconsider, he does listen to his friends, but again i'm a little nervous about that and would rather have him just agree to Retro. His same friend said when we were having troubles "how long are you going to be unhappy in your marriage?" and that weekend he decided he wanted to separate, so i know he listens to his friends. I think have some hope or encouragement would help, but i guess I can't ask others to give that to him. But I do love him still very much. I am trying to be the best I can be, but would give anything to have another chance w him.

I'd like him to go to Retro so we can at least communicate better and try the post sessions - if he is willing - and if not by EOY (that is kind of my timeline) I move on. Most of my friends think i should just move on... sometimes I feel like I am living off of false hope and should switch gears, but my heart is still very much in love w him and i want to honor my vows.

I will try my best to get my 'old self back' (I feel this most in CA when i visit old friends, so I've been going out there a lot lately, which i can w my job). I still want kids and a family so am getting nervous about starting over too. Just so many emotions.

Thank you for checking in. I welcome your advice or more on your sitch.

Kindly,
hhh

Hi hhh

I too am new to all this and still reeling from the shock and hurt and all the other emotions that run rampant and at this point cannot offer advice except to say, hang in there. I am thinking of you and everyone else. I have met so many wonderful people in a very short time, all who are helping me and listening to me.

Thanks for your message and your support. The only other thing I might add, in response to PearlHarbr's comment

"I wouldn't talk to your H's friend just yet. First you need to figure out who you are and what you can do to be the best HHH possible"

is that i feel like i've already done everything I can. I feel like i've tried to make myself a better person and get back in touch with the old 'hhh' - working on myself, my confidence, etc (even H told me before he left he had seem some changes, but felt it was too late), figuring out who I am and what i want. For awhile I was the one that was wafting more in my relationship (which H got sick of my doubting if 'he was the one'). Now that he's been gone i've reflected and he's absolutely the one i want to be with. i've told him this ad naseaum, he feels he cannot trust that i wont have doubts again and that he's just moved on himself anyway, that it's not just me but also he now who wants different things. It's like our timing has been off over the years, with one at times being more committed and the other less so (but never any infidelity during M, just one off being more into the M and then less so).

So I feel like talking to his friend or family member might be last resort, to try to see if they can encourage him to give it another chance. I've had issues w his family (we're different backgrounds and they think i judge them, not true, but they are sensitive about this) so don't think they would support me. A mutual male friend (that's more his friend of course) i thought might be more helpful. But i dont want to seem desperate..it could be a turnoff but could also help... want to see if there is anything I can do to save this marriage, beyond just taking care of myself and GAL.

I welcome any advice.
Kindly,
hhh

Hi hhh, I'm not sure that talking to friends of his would be the best idea.

It's hard to predict how they would react, what they would say to H, and how H would react. And as objective as you may try to be, these friends will probably make some sort of value judgements.

In my sitch then (if you remember), I was very tempted to approach some of W's friends for help, but I'm glad I did not. She eventually did tell them herself ( a watered down version), and the impression I got was that they were sympathetic but were also firm on her. She was already on the way back by then, and it reinforced some positive things. But if _I_ had approached them ... I just don't know.

I did tell one of that group (friends of 20 year from high school - and I chose the one she was least close to) a partial picture, but that was when I was desperately trying to arrange a getaway surprise for her with her friends. It was a very uncomfortable situation.

If you have the time or inclination, go back and read my story. It isn't as long as some others because luckily it was only 5-6 months between bomb dropping and deciding to try to work things out.

Believe me, I went through the entire range of emotions: desperately wanting him back, knowing our problems weren't unsolvable, anger at his affair, anger at myself, dropping the rope, deciding to live life without him and move out of state, uncertain that I wanted him back once I decided to move on.

I think so many people don't want to believe that GAL and working on yourself is important but I can't stress how important it is. The old adage is true, "If you love something, set it free. If it doesn't come back to you it was never really yours."

When I rediscovered myself and worked on making myself happy is when BF took notice and started reevaluating his situation.

What do you mean when you say you've already done everything you can? Simply not true. But let's go over what you have done first. What were your H's complaints about you and/or the R before he left? What don't you like about yourself or how do you think you could improve yourself? What have you done to address these issues?

Sounds to me like you're still living your life based on him: waiting to see what he does will determine what you do. You need to detach. [Caveat: I was not successful AT ALL with loving detachment. I simply reached a point when I realized that I was done and that was that. I mentally moved on so I started to physically move on with making plans to relocate to CA.]

Someone (can't remember who) recently posted this link to an excellent article on loving detachment. I'm still using it and trying to develop more every day. You cannot control what your H does. Let me repeat that: you cannot control what your H does. You can only control your own thoughts and actions. Stop dwelling on going to Retrouvaille or counseling or any other "save the M" activities. It's simply not going to happen right now. Focus on preparing yourself for your next R and making it the best one possible because you are the best HHH possible. Who that next R is with has yet to be determined. Could be H or could be someone else.

Thanks Pearl. I read your story in Dec/Jan and then a bit of June, but don't know that I caught it all - but think i got the jist. How did you work on your relationship from out of state? Did you actually move to CA or just planning to? It sounds like your BF came back of his own accord when you GAL. I feel like i've been doing that for past few mos and hasn't made a difference. But you're right, I haven't REALLY been doing that since the last few times we saw each other I kept talking about the R.

To answer your question about his complaints. He felt like I didn't appreciate him enough, took him for granted, put down his family and his physical appearance (i did say things past in moments of anger yes, but so did he). He felt I thought I was better than him. Those were the big complaints, plus lacking in intimacy department. Then goes to bus-school and partying all the time, I'm not as much of a partier and into yoga and 'new age' stuff - as he calls it - and thinks we are not compatible b/c of that too. That is B.S. - he was always supportive of me before in that regard.

So a 180 would be to be very complimentary of him, boost his ego, etc etc. But that is also contradictory to LRT of totally dropping the rope and leaving him alone. So what to do? So am I past 180 stage and need to fully go dark?

He still has stuff at our place and we will have some interactions end of this month when he return. I do not want a D. I want to give this another go given the lessons I have learned (similarities in our sitches in fact that i feel like i took him for granted too, maybe was selfish at times). I have learned to be more accepting of others, realize that words can hurt, when to give in and not have your way, be more patient, kind and accepting. I have tried to make myself a better person. I would never put him down again. I would be more of a team-player (he didn't think i thought of us as a team, that was a big thing too). But it's too late to 180-it and be 'team-player' at this stage, obviously?

So I guess I just move on; i can't wait for him to come around, i know. But I don't want to move across the entire country if we're not done... but at the same time i don't want to push for a D. My job allows me to travel wherever pretty much, so i've been leaving MA as much as I can and going home to SF, visiting friends in NY, and just staying really active and busy.

I guess I just need to focus on making myself a better person, regardless of the outcome. But doesn't H deserve to give us another chance given lessons I have learned? I don't want to harp on Retrov. w him but felt it was our only hope.

I'll try to lovingly detach. I've felt so low at times, and i know others can relate, regret about the past, anxiety about future, such loneliness. Your emotions back in Dec are exactly what I have been feeling. Sometimes I feel like I'm just going to fall apart.

Thanks for your kindness and inspiration.
-hhh

Nope, never moved back to SF, just planned to. [Went several times and am planning my next trip for Halloween!] But didn't have any face to face contact for two months. During that time I just focused on GAL and working on me. Perhaps others have a different take on this and it may not be strictly DBing, but here's how it worked for me:

Tried to do 180s while separated in the same house. Didn't work because a)BF did not want to work on the R, b)I couldn't manage to "lovingly" detach so I came across as totally cold and uncaring and c)my self-esteem was taking a beating while I was ignoring the affair.

When I finally kicked him out and detached I was fully focused on me. What I realize now is that unless and until BF/WAS wants to work on the R then it's pretty futile to try things to get them to do that. Back to you can only control yourself. So GAL is key. If the WAS sees you are happy and fulfilled in your own life they can no longer blame you for their unhappiness. Then it's up to them to decide whether or not they want to work on the R. Once they have decided or at least indicated they are willing to think about it, that is the time to show you have changed because they are open to seeing the changes. Make sense?

When BF did start coming around I used the gucci loafer method even though I thought I was through. Meaning I let BF think I was dating and that definitely got his attention. Opinions vary on the dating other people method but all I can say is that every story I've read about people using it ends up working.

Are you at the point of trying LRT? Only you can decide. How much and what kind of communication do you currently have? For me going dark was beneficial. It really helped me get my emotions under control and figure out what I wanted.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that needs to stop. It's not up to you to choose what your H wants or deserves.

Yes, you need to focus on making yourself a better person regardless of the outcome. If your H chooses to move forward without you then it's his loss. Do you honestly want to spend the rest of your life with someone who is with you out of a sense of obligation? Or do you want to be with someone who chooses to be with you?

You can and will come out of this a better, stronger person. I know (honest!) it doesn't feel like that. But it's less painful to walk straight through the fire than keep skirting the edges--it's just as hot but goes quicker.

So let's start focusing on hhh. What are your GAL activities other than travel? Are you trying new things? Getting back into hobbies you let slide? Spiffing yourself up through diet/exercise/clothes/grooming?

Sorry if this is all over the place. I spent the last two days in the sun and it has zapped my energy. But I know for me the weekends were the worst time so I'm just trying to get some response for you.

Dear Pearl,
Thanks so much for your message and clarifying things for me. There are still aspects of the techniques I struggle with. When you were able to detach, did you fully come to accept that your relationship was over? I wonder if I 'pretended' it was not happening I'd be able to detach (but that doesn't feel authentic to me b/c I still love him and would give anything to be together). Also, how did you handle his correspondence/outreach to you where you were in LRT/going dark? And does going dark mean you have NO communication, even if they reach out to you?

For ex, my H emailed me 2 days ago (I was actually quite surprised) from his travels in Asia to check in and see how I was doing and how my mom was (she had major surgery few weeks ago) and giving me an update on his travels. I'm not reading into this, but he didn't have to email me. I haven't responded yet, but thought a friendly reply in a few days couldn't hurt..and make it light and happy and that i've been busy. I know it's opposite of DR techniques but telling him i've been happy and busy in some ways makes me feel like he's more apt to push away, b/c he'll think i'm fine without him (i think he still has some guilt over the whole thing, i wants to know i'll be OK).

Another idea that confuses me: I read somewhere (i think this was a MWD quote) that "hopelessness is the cancer in marriage." i.e. that when you give up hope there is not much motivation to fix things. I know when H and I initially had troubles, a few of my girlfriends said "don't give up just yet, try this, try that.." and it inspired me and actually we got better for awhile...my attitude and behavior changes and it reflected in our R. That's why I wanted to talk to one of his friends, b/c I felt if they could give him hope/encouragement, he might not be so apt to walk away. But the consensus seems to be that this is not that good of an idea.

I am going to be in the town where his family lives one night next wk, and I almost want to reach out to his mom, or ask him via email if he'd be ok if i met up with her for coffee or something, but i do feel nervous about this. Perhaps I should just let him reach out to me as he sees fit, respond in kind, and leave it at that. If anyone was to talk to him, I think a friend might be safer since his family and i have been a bit rocky over the years.

In terms of myself, beyond traveling, I've been doing a lot of running and yoga and have reached out to friends I have not seen in ages..I try to keep myself pretty busy socially, and those days I put in the extra effort to look good or treat myself in some way (massage, clothing, etc) I feel better.

In terms of moving, yes if we were 100% done I would probably start getting things in motion to move to CA. But I'm just not there yet..it's hard for me to pick up my entire life when it's not over till it's over. I get away from Boston as much as I can, but felt like giving it a couple extra months to see where things pan out (when i'm not pursuing him, and to see if we could start up a friendship or anything). So it's hard to totally figure out what is the right call in this limbo-state.

It's hard not to obsess and I doing the right thing or not. Your experience has been helpful to clarify a few things for me, along with LR and going dark - any further ideas on how you handled - or anyone chime in - would be so helpful. How to totally detach when you still love someone? To what extent does one move on when still married? It's almost like I don't want to move on until I am forced to..but I don't want to rush things. My hope is that out of business school and constant partying he may calm down a bit and let real life, with a job and responsibilities settle in. Who knows?

Some of the 180 stuff is also confusing to me. He thought i was selfish in my marriage so i've been more giving during our separation, letting him use my car and then he started coming and going as he pleased in our home, being kinda ungrateful and asking me for money. I could have given in but sometimes I held me ground, and then he'd call me names. At this point, do you think it's futile to try 180 and I should more detach/go dark. Any clarification on how to handle his outreach/communication to me would also be helpful.

Thanks!
hhh

Just a reminder, I did not strictly adhere to DB techniques so your sitch may be completely different.

Let me go back and clarify my sitch. I was not successful at loving detachment. When I let go it was because I was done with the R and moving forward with my own life. I had a moment of clarity when I realized I was not willing to ignore BF's cheating. I had to regain my self respect and immediately packed him a bag and kicked him out that night. After that I continued my GAL activities and started making plans to split the possessions and move out of state.

During this time I did go dark. I think there was no communication for almost a month except for financial matters. Then when he started wanting to come over I said sure, but made arrangements to be gone when he was here.

So back to you.

That is textbook DBing and a good plan. Just keep it short and don't provide a lot of details, keep him wondering what you're up to that's making you so happy.

You need to reframe your thinking. Stop thinking about ways to get him to change. I may sound like a broken record but it bears repeating: this is the time to focus on you. You can only control yourself. The goal is to be a woman only a fool would leave. That way you will enter your next R as the best possible person whether it is with your H or someone else.

Bingo.

Your GAL activities sound good. Have you tried anything new? Done something to stretch outside your comfort zone? We've talked about what H's complaints were about you, now what are the things you'd like to change about yourself?

I totally understand this. Can you try to start casually looking for jobs or places to live? Sometimes it's just fun to shop for real estate.

Again, this was the hardest part for me. When I started here I found some others who were struggling with detachment so we had our own thread to exchange ideas and support each other. Did you read that article I gave you? It really is excellent. This is the key: "Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing or controlling."

I do understand how confusing it all is. Since I initiate the conversation 98% of the time (I'm very chatty!) I stopped. BF said I was being very cold and distant. Sigh. So the 180s I think you have to choose and execute thoughtfully. I read on someone's thread that you should not do anything now that you aren't prepared to do forever. Also, make the changes that you think make you a better person. If you think you were selfish (you know that's a problem of mine) then be more giving but don't be a pushover. It's imperative that you maintain your self respect throughout all of this.

Remember that the last resort technique is just that--the last resort. You shouldn't try it until you're ready because any waffling will severely set you back. If you've done the 180s and haven't seen any results then I would go ahead with going dark.

Enough of a novel for you?