If a spouse takes the time to look under every rock, informs their spouse about their concerns, initiates marriage counseling, communicates, makes a pros and cons list and treats their spouse with respect as they make their decision being honest, then you don't have a 'walk away spouse'. If the spouse is approaches it maturely, takes accountability for their contribution for the erosion of the marriage and is aware of all the consequences, their spouse part of the process and after doing the 'work' realize that divorce is the outcome, then it becomes consensual.
When the departure is abrupt, the spouse is involved in an affair and/or places all the blame on their spouse then it's a one sided decision and not respectful of their partner.
Are the spouses who leave 'bad' people? No, but their actions are irresponsible. And those left in the lurch are not perfect either. Our saving grace in being at this site is that we work on growth, awareness, culpability, honesty in our actions and communication skills which were probably lacking with our spouse.
My former spouse decided within two months of 'dating' a woman during the marriage that he was miserable and was 'done'. He promptly moved in with her (secretly) and eventually married her less than four months after the divorce was final. He lives by her rules. Do I respect the manner in which he made his choices? Absolutely not. Do I accept that I was in a one sided relationship rather than a marriage between two loving partners? Finally.
It's hard to let go of the fantasy to accept the reality and face the fears of being divorced. No one is flawless. It's how we get up from this shocking experience that defines who were are.. in the now, the present, not the past.
Tough question. In my case, I will never tell my girls that my W is a bad person. I try to boost her in their eyes by talking about my faults. The other day my D10 was giving me some advice and I wasn't really listening. Then I thought about it and said to her, you are right. That is good advice. That was one of daddy's problems with mommy. She'd try to tell me something but I've always been too smart for my own good and I wouldn't listen.
Of course, as my daughters grow and wonder why they couldn't do this or go there because of the limitations of D they will ask their own questions and come up with their own answers.
If my W follows through, files for D and sees it to conclusion I'm not sure how -- right now -- I'll ever be able to forgive her. I understand now why we are separated. Through a marriage class I've seen the mistakes I made that contributed to the wall she was building right before my blind eyes.
But she knows I realize these things and I apologized for them during a series of letters in the class this summer.
Still, she continues on seeing if the grass is greener with no consideration of counseling or anything that could lead us back to reconciliation.
So in that definition, not giving me a second chance after 13 years of imperfect by dedicated marriage, she is a bad person.
But what about me? I haven't learned how to respect her choice and forgive? That makes me a bad person too?
Me: 47, Ds 17-13, D final 6-11 http://tinyurl.com/yk4e2tz http://tiny.cc/thread2 http://tinyurl.com/ydtphqu http://tinyurl.com/thread4 http://tinyurl.com/3sm78k6 http://tinyurl.com/thread6
Wow Gyps you need an outlet for that prose girlfriend! I agree with you wholeheartedly. Especially your conclusion: "It's how we get up from this shocking experience that defines who were are.. in the now, the present, not the past."
The only part of your post that I do not agree with 100% is: "Are the spouses who leave 'bad' people? No, but their actions are irresponsible." I guess we can debate the bad versus irresponsible or bad versus weak etc. Bottom line, I accept that I may not be perfect (although I have NGF fooled for the time being / and I still get e-mails corroborating that from of all people the XW) but nobody will convince me that cheating on your spouse, repeatedly lying to their face and breaking up a family (usually with small children involved) is the act of a good person. Good people are not selfish, good people are respectful. Good people act like what you described in your opening paragraph.
CTH, I have never bad mouthed XW to anyone who knows or knew her. Especially not our daughter...like you, I boost her but not at my expense. I am not familiar with your sitch but I have a hunch that it is no different than most. Have you forgiven and accepted her choices? I have no clue....however, without any other information, I would rather have you as a friend (even if you don't listen) than a woman who looks (probably has been looking since before the bomb) for greener pastures and who I suspect has probably found it (in her mind anyway).
Do the actions make the person? I suppose, John, I agree with you, we could debate this all day.
People are generally fallible. Yes, we all make mistakes. No, we are not perfect. But when a person deliberately sets out to have an affair and destroy a marriage, does that make them a bad person? Probably. Now, this does not mean they are a bad person forever. I mean, although the cases are rare, humans have this wonderful thing called change. We can adapt. However, the more I read, the more I find that humans are generally afraid of change.
I have never badmouthed stbx to my children, although he is not their father. As a matter of fact, I don't even really talk about him except for here and to a few select people in RL. I still love him, but I don't trust him.
That being said, I agree with John. People who are tempted by the fruit of another...good ones...will figure out what is lacking in their lives to tempt them and try to fix it instead of jumping into the fruit salad head on. When that vow was made, the spouse vowed to let no man or woman step into the marriage.
Yes, the action is bad. I think the person who commits the action is bad. Doesn't mean that at some point they can't try to make amends, and that is where, for me at least, the turning point is.
Im still standin better than I ever did looking like a true survivor feeling like a little kid Im still standin after all this time and Im picking up the pieces of my life without you on my mind..
Bad is such a sweeping generalization that it denies the good.
I made mistakes in my marriage because I was unhappy. Did that make me bad? I hurt myself in the process. Did that make me good, bad, ignorant, stupid? Was wanting to keep my family first above all else make me good? Was my unwitting loss of self, settling and giving up to wait for my then husband to finally be willing to talk good.. bad.. avoidance, failure?
Were the spouses we vowed to spend the rest of our lives with wrong from the very beginning? Did we inadvertently marry a person that was wrong for us? Did they? Dramatic actions stem from suppressed emotions. They popped like a zit.
After he left my former spouse stated that he would divorce me again in a minute, that he never should have married me, that he took a leap of faith against his misgivings to marry me. Huh?
All I can conclude is that he wasn't happy, was insecure, ultimately selfish and arrogant. Yet he was the best thing that happened to me at one point. And through our mutual failure as a couple our relationship became one sided because he felt he was compromising and I was too scared, intimidated to risk what was most important to me... a positive, equal relationship with him.
Between good and bad, black and white, there's lots of gray. And in the end by the method of his departure, his lack of involvement with our children, his actions toward me, he's not someone I want to be associated with.
My problem is forgiving myself for what this is and has done to my children. Just as parents are to young to die, children are never too old to suffer the ramifications of divorce. It's all how we pick up the pieces. As long as we blame our departing spouses, call them derogatory names then we're stuck in the muck. Acceptance that we are all flawed, forgiveness for ourselves, sending the former spouses blessings (which helps relieve anger and bitterness on our parts).. through these we move on.
All we have is the present. The ability to model what is appropriate behavior to our kids and ourselves. To put on our big people panties or thongs (in John's case) and go forward.
Yes it takes time to heal. And it's a choice to face what you may not like about yourself. It's better to get angry over the crap and then let it go. And it forces us to see what is truly important and what not to take for granted.. the love we feel for our children, our family, our friends.
Through great trauma comes the opportunity for great growth.
Wow, I never thought I would get this type of reaction by writing that WASs are bad. I am no longer in the muck....far from it, i have moved on....i have forgiven (not forgotten).....i realize that i have my share of the responsibilities (30% max).....am i heeled? who knows? what i do know is that i do not take anyone or anything for granted.
Hey Kerry, I am sure you can find a ton of folks that think that the people you name above are not or were not BAD! Maybe i should have said that WASs are flawed, but then agian who isn't. Ok, maybe Kalni is right they are just weak.....
Mother Teresa? LMAO, but nothing surprises me anymore.
Okay maybe you are all right, not bad, just confused? sadistic? cruel? I don't know...maybe I am just bitter....(nahhhhhh)
Im still standin better than I ever did looking like a true survivor feeling like a little kid Im still standin after all this time and Im picking up the pieces of my life without you on my mind..
1) D8 may have H1N1...anyways she does have the symptoms...but so far nothing anywhere close to alarming. Thank God for my mom...the best care giver north of the border!
2) My dad turned 79....man am i getting old!
3) NGF hung out with us on friday and Saturday and part of Sunday. What is it with you women and cuddling??? XW did not care for it much (I do not have extensive scientific data to base myself on but...) NGF is exagerated!!!
4) D8 is still with me (because i have a better support system the xw does) and XW will be visiting tommorow....hmmm....should be fun....maybe i will just get out of the apt. and leave them alone.
5) Zenyatta ran a beautiful race in the breeders Cup Classic against the BOYZZZ!!!!! GIRL POWER! Unfortunatelly, I had the second place horse Gio Ponti to win.....oh well......
