Taking in what everyone has said.....if you'll remember way back, Puppy, I had a very hard time seeing the "loving" side of busting an affair. Still struggle with it at times, but I'm doing better. I remember I even used the statement that I could not fall back into bed with a man who had exposed me to the world. But I don't want to get off into that right now....and we've cussed and discussed it all before.
It took me reading your old thread to see from your side of the fense. As a former WAW, it is still vivld in my mind how self-righteous my H acted when he discussed my sins. It had a huge affect in pushing my rebellious feelings about our M to the farthest side of the church pew! (BTW, I was much like your W--where I left my parent's home and went straight into M with my H.)
The R between H & W is complicated to explain b/c as you know, I've tried to tell LBH's that to a degree, they have to treat their WW somewhat like a father would treat a rebellious daughter. The W has to respect her H before she can love him. And, come to think of it, her father was the first man who she ever loved.....so it gets very deep. (I think everyone knows I'm certainly not implying that women want to have a type of incest R when I compare the H-W to the F-D.)
I do agree that it is a fine line in the MR when boundaries have to be set--and made sure that they are respected. To say it very old fashionly.....the man has to wear the pants! Sometimes, he has to take the pants away from his W to put them on....and he may have a fight on his hands when he does....but in the end, she'll admire him. The same principle comes into play when parenting. Go figure! The deep part also is that it doesn't work when the roles are reversed! When the roles are in proper order of things, the W will not only respect her H for wearing the pants, but she will be sexually attracted to him. But, if the roles are reversed and she wears the pants, she will despise him and he will not be attracted to her. (Room for more discussion at a later time.)
So, where was I? Oh...self-righteousness! Well, now that you've brought it up....lol (just kidding). This is not pointing fingers at you Puppy, or any one person....but I have been amazed at how "saintly" some LBH's sound when they first come to the board. That old WAW mentality starts to surface real fast when I read that stuff, b/c I have my first time to see a woman leave a perfect man.
Even though we women need to see our H's being a strong, confident man, we certainly know the difference in those traits and from that of self-righeousness. When I was reading what you said about the Lord, it came to my mind that I don't recall Him ever making a sinner feel "shame". He gave them forgiveness and love, but I just don't remember anything about Him casting shame upon anyone.
Well, I hope I didn't lose anyone along the way as I was rambling in my thoughts. Puppy, you touched my heart, sweetie, and I want to see your M work so much!! I can't think of any other couple who has as many people pulling for them as Mr. & Mrs. Puppy! My love & payers to your family.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
why don't you explain to us men here, in a language that we men can understand, what it is that has fired up Puppy's wife?
She stopped seeing him as a strict, judgmental husband, and started seeing him as a signle, available male.
I think she lost the fun, romantic, playfulness with her "husband" and began to think of him in the area of one who would discipline her if she didn't walk a straight line. However, once he called the shots of wanting to be free to date other women.....then suddenly everything changed to Mrs. Puppy. He stopped being the strict husband figure and was cast into the light of being available "bachelor".
How many dates did it take for her jealousy to peek and for her to realize she didn't want Pup to get away? Gucci is correct in his evaluation about all of this, and I knew he was....simply b/c of how the human nature is.....but I would not encourage it in the past b/c of the the Christian perspective--and didn't want to mislead a newcomer in anything I might be "advising", but hey.....I won't throw stones when I've seen Pup do everything he could and it did not budge her! I really think this was his LRT before filing for D.
You see, to me...dating does not automatically mean having sex. But to a lot of people, it is just assumed that a date is "sex" and that is why I have not encouraged newcomers to do this. They are confused enough when they get here! It never ceases to amaze me how some folks can misunderstand what I mean! But, anyway, since I've read about Mrs. Pup's great turn-around, I have taken a few chances in suggesting going out on friendly or casual dates. After all, isn't our theme song "Do What Works"? I don't think that a newcomer needs to get "involved" in another serious R. But, Puppy certainly isn't a newcomer and when it is 'now or never'.....go for it.
I think I just heard a few bodies hit the floor in a dead faint!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Gucci is correct in his evaluation about all of this, and I knew he was....simply b/c of how the human nature is.....but I would not encourage it in the past b/c of the the Christian perspective--and didn't want to mislead a newcomer in anything I might be "advising", but hey.....I won't throw stones when I've seen Pup do everything he could and it did not budge her!
Sandi, thanks heaps for your post.
Human nature is a thing! To ignore its immutable laws lands us in all kinds of trouble. The Russians tried communism for 70 years but that didn't do so well, as brilliant as it sounded, because it kept bumping into human nature.
Funny, that.
Gucci cops a lot of flak here but I admire the courage of his convictions and frankly he is right.
When my wife left me on 28th January 2008 I was naturally crushed but because I was so ashamed of my actions which occasioned the breakup, I didn't go after her. I simply did my best to move on and to start dating other women. She did not like that one bit! I have never begged her to love me, I even wished her well on her way.
My wife, just like Puppy's, AFWAW's, Phoenixdeux's, Steve McQueen's and others always respond favourably when we man up and stop fawning, ingratiating and supplicating over them. I have yet to see a LBH who supplicated his WAW back to the marriage.
I wish all women thought like you, and I'm sure a lot of women wish that their men knew an extra thing or two. You all respond to the same thing (alpha male behaviour) whether you like it or not. You can't help it! But Sandi, you accept, acknowledge and celebrate that fact rather than pretend it isn't so.
Hey Puppy, I am really happy for you and your wife and I think you have effected some amazing changes to your marriage. Congratulations also on being an expectant grandfather!
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
(1) Though certain patterns may tend to break along male/female lines, this does not mean that this will always be the case (nor should it). Genitals don't dictate a "proper" or "natural" role in a M. People vary in the kind of role they want to play in a romantic R. It is important not to let generalities turn into "shoulds." (Though, personally, I too go for a strong swarthy manly man, lol, this does not mean that I would be defective if I preferred a less alpha-male type. Basically, my point is that sex doesn't dictate the proper distribution of gender characteristics in romantic Rs.)
(2) I too have never seen "fawning, ingratiating and supplicating" work either. But this goes for LBHs and LBWs. A needy, spineless, doormat without any clear sense of self who lacks boundaries simply isn't an attractive partner, man or woman.
(3) If anything, dating "works" for women even better than men (but that is just in general, lol).
(4) When dating to try to save your M, a person uses the datee. Not nice.
(5) I think the two biggest reasons that dating works are that (a) It moves the LBS out of "fawning, ingratiating and supplicating" mode and (b) it creates some real space in the R by taking the pressure off the WAS. Both of these things may be accomplished without dating others, but dating helps the LBS pull it off because they are then looking outside the M (but not necessarily from within) for certain kinds of validation, etc, rather than continuing to try to get their needs met by WAS. Thus, a big part of the effectiveness of dating is that it serves as a therapeutic crutch for the LBS that helps the LBS truly detach from the WAS. But, there is the problem of (4).
Oldtimer has such a way of stating exactly what I am thinking. I agree with her, and am so glad that all points of views and ways of looking at things are out there.
Had a GREAT time with W and the boys during our weekend getaway this weekend. Friday night after checking into the resort, we went to Chili's for some late dinner (and 2-for-1 beer for me and margaritas for the fetching Mrs. Puppy!), and by the time we were done everyone was in a great mood and being silly. We took the boys back to our villa, and me and my W went for a walk by the pool and around the grounds, as it was a beautiful night. Played some ping-pong by the pool, then walked and sat on a park bench by a fountain and made-out like teenagers.
We didn't stay out long. We were hoping the boys would be tired and go to sleep quickly when we got back, as we were both feeling pretty amorous, but they seemed to get their second wind, so we just laid down on our nice king-sized bed and teased and joked while the boys were in the living room. Our door was ajar, and we were making out, and W didn't seem to mind, and this was huge because that was always a big issue with her: "WHAT IF THE KIDS SEE US????" I mean, we were only kissing anyway, but this was big, and it got even bigger as after we all went "lights out" to go to sleep, we ML oh-so-quietly in our bed while the boys were still awake in the other room.
It was really nice.
Saturday we just had a fun day playing ping-pong with the boys by the pool, and going out for some lunch, and hanging out at the villa. We drove the 90 minutes to the Yankees-Rays game (picked the wrong game to go to, as the Yanks had all their scrubs in, having already clinched, and lost. Then yesterday, they erupt for a bunch of runs, including A-Rod getting SEVEN RBIs in ONE INNING with a grand slam and a 3-run HR .... arggg!). I had a HORRIBLE sinus attack all the way there on the drive and at the game, and had to excuse myself from our PHENOMENAL seats a half-dozen times to go get more tissues, and my sneezing and nose-blowing was damned near causing a scene. I felt miserable, and I didn't want to spoil the family's good time, so I just took some walks along the stadium concourse and we otherwise had a nice time. Drove back to the resort and crashed on the Benadryl I needed to take.
Yesterday I took the boys golfing, as it was included in our weekend package, and I asked the fetching Mrs. Puppy if she'd like to ride along with us. I'd asked several times before, and she'd always declined, but the boys seemed happy when she decided to go with us this time, and it was nice. Had lunch at the turn, finished our round, and then drove back home, a little hot and sunburned but otherwise happy. S16 kicked my ass, as usual, but the course was fantastic and I played pretty well.
As a bonus, my Jags kicked the AZZES of the hated Tennessee Titans, led by Satan himself Jeff Fisher. Can't wait to see the tape-delay of the blowout.
My wife had her engagement ring and wedding ring on all weekend. So she's gone from not wearing one, saying she "didn't want to get people's hopes up," to wearing her white-gold band, to wearing her original yellow gold band and engagement ring, which she had always said "didn't match my other jewelry" the past couple of years.
We ate dinner together at her house, I hung around for awhile and watched the football game, we snuggled on the couch for a bit, and then I took the dog and went back to my house as I didn't want to overstay the "don't-be-too-available" thing.
I mean, we were only kissing anyway, but this was big, and it got even bigger as after we all went "lights out" to go to sleep, we ML oh-so-quietly in our bed while the boys were still awake in the other room.
