We are still sleeping in the same bed. There is just no physical contact except a touch every 3 or so days. It does not feel like a marriage, it feels like a living arrangement.
I do not want to do these 180's, I can just tell she does not want any physical contact so i don't touch her and i do not say i love you because I get the half hearted "Love you too" back.
The other day i did ask her if I still had a chance with her and she said, "Of course you do (i know, pursuig, right?). It just seems to me that if she wants to work things out like she has said she does, she would make some effort at reconciliation instead of keeping the distance between us.
Thanks for the directness. I don't want to complain and pout. It just seems that one minute I am strong, the next I am angry and the next I am hurt and depressed. I hate the roller coaster of emotions.
I don't think there is anyone else, I just can't understand how she can be so totally detached from me and it does not seem to bother her a bit. It feels that I mean nothing to her.
In your first post, you said that your W told you "three years ago" that she was unhappy b/c you weren't listening to her. You never said if you changed any of that. If you'll read Michele's article on the symptoms of a WAW, you'll see that they begin their journey the same way.....they are unhappy b/c they try to tell their H and he won't listen......I mean REALLY LISTEN to her and he won't (are you paying attention here) "he" won't put any effort into the MR or making changes. NOW...after she has her feelings shut down....you are having a pity party b/c she won't respond to you and doesn't want physical touching. You are complaining b/c she won't put effort into the M. Where were you when SHE wanted YOU to put effort into the R? She pushed down her feelings all those years you wouldn't listen and talk her seriously, now it has caught up.
As a former WAW, I can tell you that the more you mope around and act like a love sick pup, the more you are disgusting her. Do not tell her you love her b/c she knows you are trying to get her to say it back.......AND YOU ARE!! I know you are and so does she. Do not ask her if you still stand a chance and other high school stuff like that. It is a huge turn-off to a WAW.
I have been straight with you and I'm going to now, but you aren't going to like it. I think she is involved with OM. She may not be in a PA yet, but I bet she's having an EA. Although, she may have turned it to a PA about 6 weeks ago if that is when she completely stopped with all physical contact. I think you need to find out for sure if she's in an A.....and you won't find out by asking her. A WAW is not going to just come out and tell you she's in an A when you simply "ask" her. Maybe she's never lied before....but she will now.
You see, it's different with a WAW when she first gets into an A b/c she isn't sure how things will go with her and the OM, so she's kind of fense walking trying to decide what to do....or see what OM does.
I would check her cell phone to see her TM and who she's been calling. Check her emails. You may have to get some type of keyboard softwear to see what's going on. OTOH, if you don't want to know for sure, then that's your decision. But, either way, you've got to get a grip and know that you may be in this for quite a while.....if she doesn't decide to walk out. But if you pursue her, she will walk. Stop doing what you know is wrong. I get so upset with LBH's who say they did such & such and then say (I know...it was wrong)!!! Why do they do it if they know it was wrong to start with? Don't say you are weak. If you are, then STOP BEING WEAK!! WAW's hate men who are weak. You will either get strong and show some toughness--or you will lose her. Plain and simple. Your choice.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
One more thing I meant to talk about. Have you read the book, "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Smalley? You need to. It is very obvious that your LL is physical touch, but her's probably isn't. As long as she's a WAW, you can probably forget about her wanting you to touch her. If anything, she will more than likely cringe at the thought of it. I am just being honest and telling you how a lot of WAW's feel. I know this hits below the belt with most men and they think they can't live in a M without sex....but if you love her enough to do the work, then you "can" wait it out. I wanted you to know that you must stop expecting her to suddenly change her mind and start showing you physical touching b/c until she feels that her needs are being met, she isn't going to fill your needs. She has felt her needs were denied for several years and you didn't care to make sure her needs were met.....and now she may have found OM who would meet those needs. She did without--trying to to give you time to come around in the M , so now you will have to do without trying to give her time. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Also, on the marriage builders web site is information about "Her Needs/His Needs" and there is a book by that title that you should read. I think you need to know what your W's LL is and what her emotional needs are. Until you do, I don't think things are going to improve a lot.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I see your points Sandi. Thanks for the direct. How do I check text messages. She deletes them off her phone as I have looked in the past. She has adamantly denied A in the past and treats me like I am evil for even asking.
The main reason she said I did not listen to her was because my parents had been living with us and my dad died. My mom was very depressed but my wife wanted her to move out into an apartment they had rented earlier. My mom was too depressed to leave but my wife wanted her to move out. My mom kept telling me she was leaving but then never did. Because I did not get her out soon enough, my wife said I put my mom in front of her. I was living with the promise I had made to my dad to take care of my mom. I thought it would be best for my mom if she was the one who decided to leave instead of being asked to leave.
There are other mistakes I have made in regards to how I handled my W's changes in the past few years so i know I have contributed but I have never ever treated her like she is treating me. No matter what challenges we have been through, I have been close to her.
I do not believe I deserve to be dropped like an old shoe like she has dropped me but, you are right, I cannot change her feelings, except by following the advice I have been given.
Her language used to be touch as she was always wanting to touch me, hold her hand, etc.. Now it is like you said, she appears to cringe at that thought.
Even recently she told me how she resented me for something that happened over 15 years ago and then complained about how sometimes I like to talk when we ML. It was like the floodgates opened about everything she did not like about me.
The other day i had a rough day at work and i talked with my boss who went through an ugly divorce with similar things happening in his life (combined with alcoholism). He told me that she will never find anyone with the integrity and kindness, etc.. that I have. Biased I am sure.
I think I have met my wife's needs more than you would think (maybe I am dreaming). When she told me I was holding her back it was because I did not want her to ride a motorcycle because they are dangerous,....things like that. I know I have not been a perfect husband but we had always had great communication. She used to even tell me that.
It was like, all of a sudden, I was not good enough.
I have spoken inappropriately to her in the last few years because of her sudden changes in beliefs, ideas, etc.. I know what has led to some of those changes and I am trying to be understanding. I cannot understand an affair because that is a total violation of trust. She has always told me that if I was ever involved in an A, she would be done with me, no chances and she said she could never ever do such a thing.
So, an A or a WAW. I don't know. I do know that I will quit being a sick pup. Either way she may not want me back but at least i will not be perceived as being weak, a whiny baby, etc..
Mu counselor has met with both of us before and honestly wonders how long I am going to put up with this situation. Honestly, I love her and will not be the one to break up the family. I will not do that to my kids, even if I have to go without affection the rest of my life (at least that is what i think but look at me, I can't even survive a few weeks very well).
Sorry to babble but I thought I needed to share some more information.
I just started reading "Love Must Be Tough" and it reaffirms all of the suggestions on this site.
Good for you! You sound stronger already! As for how to find the TM on her phone.....I don't know that there is a way after they are deleted, but I'm not up on all this technology. I think I can contact a couple of people here on the board that know what to suggest to you about a keylogger for your computer. There are other things they can offer advice about finding out if she is having an A. It's just something you need to know, and I doubt she would tell you if she were....unless she was sure she was completely done with the M. In most cases, the WAW hangs on until she has enough money to afford a move or she has received a promise of M from OM--or something. Seldom will she move out without some kind of "leg" to stand on.
Decoy, you really touched me with your story b/c my H and I lived with my MIL from the time we said our wedding vows untill a few months before our first child was born. His dad had passed away right before our wedding. He felt like it was his duty to see after his mother and she took every advantage she could. I used to even think that if I could just hold on until she had passed away that maybe we would stand a fighting chance (terrible to say, but that is how desparate I was)--but she lived till nearly 90! Ugh, by then I had finally reached a place that I just didn't care any more b/c I couldn't change him. However, I always felt like he was a "mama's boy".....and no wife wants to be M to a mama's boy (just keep that under you hat in case you need to think about it sometime, okay?).....and I'm not saying you "are" one--b/c you were in a tough spot and it would have been hard for me to tell one of my parents to leave my house, too. But, I do know that it is a bad way to start a M and it is a seed of bad relations and sets a rough road that is very hard to overcome. I never got over the feeling that he put her before me. It is a horrible feeling and it will make the W act terrible b/c of her lack of security. Anyway, I know what kind of problems that can bring between a man & W in a MR. I don't think parents realize what they are asking of a young adult child when they want them to promise to take care of the survivor. Guess it is only normal to do that. I can see what a burden it was for you....and also my young H. I was so immature that I could only dream of us being alone together....which we never were. I only wanted to have the privilege of being a bride and didn't think I was asking too much....but now I realize that I hurt myself b/c I'm sure my H thought I was being unfair to his mother. I don't know how long ago that was with you & your W, but there is a possibility that she still resents what happened. Women will try to push down resentments over a peroiod of time, but then it comes to a boiling point and then it's as if you can do nothing right....(as you experienced). In fact, for some women it is hard to separate some issues and they all begin to blend together. That may be why she's blaming you for things 15 years ago.
Not only do the emotions build up but the behavior also. I am sure she is treating you worse b/c I think whatever is going on with her...she has a lot of guilt also. Guilt makes a person act even worse. Whenever I was feeling guilty over my EA, you would have thought I would have been nicer to my H, but I was worse. He came home early one night and almost caught me on the compter with OM. I kn ew if he saw me all dolled up that he would wonder why, so I would not look at him and I acted as if I was mad at him. So...go figure.
The thing that I'm trying to figure out is why your W left her church. Did you say she left....or changed her belief? Do you know what happened that caused her to do that? You don't have to tell what it is, but if you don't know....then I think it is somehow connected with what is going on with her now. Maybe that was the beginning, but I think it plays a part in this.
Well, I'm going to try to see if I can run down a buddy here on the board and see about telling you some things to do toward busting an A.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi, I appreciate the effort you take in trying to help me and others. if there is an A, I honestly believe it would be an EA. Can you explain some more to me that that entails? You mentioned you had one. What is it really? What caused you to "go back" to your husband? I am sorry if you have already shared this but as you know, I am new here.
I tend to agree with Sandi -- your wife would appear to be involved in SOME sort of R with OM. The sudden lack of any touch is a pretty telltale sign, as is the deleting of her TMs on her phone.
I would doubt she's deleting them one at a time, after sending/receiving them. There's most likely a certain time(s) of day when she's deleting them in bulk. Does she keep her phone with her at all times? Does she keep it locked?
You could install a keylogger on her computer, but the cellphone is probably where the communication is taking place. Who gets her cellphone bill, you or her? Any way you can see who she is calling? If she's making calls to OM from her phone, a voice-activated recorder, hidden underneath the front seat of her car, would do the trick in short order.
However, don't do ANY of these things if you don't think you can handle it, emotionally. Seeing/hearing raw evidence of an affair is NOT for the faint of heart, and the images will stay with you for a long time. I personally chose to find out, because I would rather know the truth of what I was going on, and then deal with it accordingly.
Everything else Sandi said is spot-on. You've GOT to cut out the weak, pursuing, mopey behavior, as it's a sure turn-off to her. I know it's hard, but if you want to fight for your mrriage, this is a multi-month process, and you're going to have to strap 'em on.
