And to others following: never underestimate the power of dismounting from the moral high horse and giving your partner genuine space and freedom to figure out what he/she wants...
Wanting to cook and keep her house clean is a great sign. When I am happy, that is a natural activity that comes through me, but when I don't give a cr@p....then it shows in my lack of homemaking skills. She seems to be treating this like a "new relationship" and that is wonderful b/c you don't want that other one back. I think the fact you are not rushing back too quickly is wise of you b/c if you did, her sexual response would die, so you want to try to keep that evaluated for a while. I realize that a woman has to own her response (from what the oldtimers here on the board use to tell me) but the man can do whatever he is able to help keep her in that mood. You sure found what button to push that made her come to life. It's kind of sad that that is the way we humans are wired, but it's true never-the-less.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I think several months ago we chatted a bit about your moralizing tone at times toward W. That is what I was thinking about. With your separation and decision to open the door to dating, you really for the first time gave W space to figure out what she wanted, free from the guilting/shaming vibe of the previous situation.
Now, no doubt the idea of you dating stirred up some jealousy on her part, which can certainly do wonders. But I think that as much, if not more, of the change has to do with her finally being in an uncoerced context in which she can finally see what SHE WANTS herself rather than feeling pressed to conform to the role of "the good wife" who dun wrong and who "has to do" as told by her husband who seems to hold the moral trump cards.
Like I said, the tricky part will be for her to re-enter a committed monogomous R without her feeling that internal stifling pressure to conform, even if you yourself continue not to supplement the pressure with external guilting/shaming.
I disagree. I think it has less to do with Pup not "guilting" his W but respecting himself. Pup stood his ground, he didn't yield any moral ground once he set his boundaries. He granted her the freedom to walk, but he stayed true to himself. Fortunately, his W saw the respect and the attraction of that, and began to value Pup again. (By contrast, I submit that some WAW's are too blind to recognize desirable values in a mate.)
Setting moral boundaries does not make one unattractive -- quite the contrary. And to characterize Pup as having gone too far and put himself "on the moral high horse" is hyperbole.
I'm not sure that we are disagreeing. I wholeheartedly agree that giving his W freedom while putting boundaries in place was a great thing to do and was critical in W's recent changes.
Indeed, that was precisely my point. Puppy's approach and behavior to the whole separation definitely shifted things. And, importantly, part of the shift was to move him out of the role of moral enforcer. It seems to me important that people recognize that giving a WAS real space, without playing the role of moral enforcer, while certainly setting and maintaining clear boundaries is a very useful strategy, and one implemented by Puppy quite well recently.
As for whether or not Puppy has ridden the moral high horse in the past, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Puppy and I have discussed when he has come off as morally superior to his W, and he has even agreed that his W has perceived him this way in the past. If you read from the beginning of his story to the present, then you might agree with him on that point, or not.
With respect to boundaries in general, I'm a huge fan of setting boundaries. I encouraged Puppy in the very early stages of this whole thing ages ago to do so, and I have encouraged many others to as well. I am no fan of the misreading of DB that requires self-humilialition and doormatting.
Anyway, I wrote this more than anything else to clarify further what I meant for others reading along.
I'm not sure why my posts consistently inflame you so much. Often it seems to me that you look for posts from me to piss you off, lol, without reading them carefully. Maybe you do. Probably you don't. Perhaps you are still pissed off about something I wrote to you. If so, whatever I wrote is probably worth a second look. Often it is the posts that cause the strongest feelings that bear the closest scrutiny in terms of their usefulness in self-exploration. Maybe there is simply something in my style that puts you off or makes it hard for you to see my intended meaning. But, whatever is going on, it is really OK. We are two strangers on an internet discussion board. We don't have to agree. It is fine with me if you think everything I write is boneheaded, lol. What seems clear is that we probably aren't two strangers who can really engage in productive dialog at this point in time. Thus I generally choose to bow out of conversations with you. Please don't take my general lack of reply to your posts to me as an insult or feel ignored. I have no poor opinion of you. If you are on these boards, you are probably a very strong, very loving, very loyal person with intelligence and initiative. We simply mismatch in an online forum. Take care.
This is one of those "as long as that's how they PERCEIVE it, you have a problem" situations. Because I still think I was only living up to my own standards, ethics and morals, but it was coming across to my wife as "holier-than-thou," so it was a very real obstacle in our reconciliation, whether I was "right" or not.
I think the key is to use strong boundaries, aggressive exposure and "the moral high-horse" (to use your term) at the BEGINNING, to aggressively bust up the affair, but then you're going to have to dramatically change tactics and style in order to give more space, once the FWAS has demonstrated -- thru some period of time of no-contact and transparency -- that they can be trusted again. It is at this point where I think you need to be especially forgiving, loving, empathetic, and give space.
I think it took me awhile to figure out that it was okay to let my guard down, and to assume this latter style, but once I did, it clearly helped.
Yes, OT, you frequently piss me off, just as I surely occasionally piss off others here. But that's because you challenge me, and I respect that.
Likewise, except you don't often piss me off, lol, though I might disagree with some of your tactics.
Aggressive exposure to me just seems unproductive in the short and long term to me. But no doubt even if that is generally true, it isn't true in all cases. And, setting strong boundaries to treat oneself properly when it comes to an A is the most important thing.
