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As many people do at first glance, you've missed the entire point of both the book and the website.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a "nice guy" UNLESS doing so consistently leads your to being unhappy with either your professional or personal life. If giving of yourself, serving the needs of others, being always tolerant and forgiving invariably leads to your feeling either taken advantage of, taken for granted, or even victimized by those around you, then perhaps it is time for a change. They aren't going to change --> YOU have to do it...or else you will *never* be happy in life.

From your very first post here, TEGH, you've made it clear that you are a typical "Nice Guy" who feels victimized by the women in your life. You even make it a point to detail every new offense toward you in your journals of the "Discarded Husband" --> where the title itself reveals that you view yourself as a victim.

Glover DOES NOT advocate that men should be "not nice": domineering, controlling, bullying, angry, jerkish, or what have you. That isn't what "No More Mr. Nice Guy" means.

What Glover does advocate is for habitual Nice Guys to start tapping in to their own masculine energy and strength, and begin forging their OWN happiness out of life --> not dependent upon others. Rather than serving others so that they will, in turn, make *you* happy (the Nice Guy approach), you learn to take your own life by the horns, forge your own happiness out of it, and THEN share that happiness through service to others. Do you see the difference?

In doing this work, you also make yourself a much more sexually attractive man --> hence why we discuss NMMNG here on this board. It ties *directly* into what turns a women on in her man. As such, Nice Guys often have chronically sex-starved marriages, particularly after the honeymoon-phase and the first chidren arrive. Often, all their women can say is, "I just don't find you sexually attractive anymore." And the more angry, sullen, withdrawn, and disconnected the man becomes, the worse the problem gets. The root problem is that women are generally attracted to strong, confident, assertive, independent masculinity -- traits that Nice Guys have trouble bringing out in themselves. However, you *can* turn this around and re-awaken your masculine self.

And not become a jerk in the process.

Which is what those who don't understand the process always seem to assume. Glover really should have chosen a different book title.

-- B.

Before I give you my full response, I have a reading assignment for you:

Hysterectomy and Low Libido

There is nothing particular about this site other than its the first one that pops up under Google when you type in "hysterectomy" and "low libido." I could have picked the next dozen sites that pop up and you'd get similar readings.

As of this afternoon there 190 comments, the most I could find on any of Tracee Cornforth's blog topics. And as you read through them all (or if you don't), I want you to consider the following question: "How would your view that treatment for the Nice Guy Syndrome be applicable in any of these comments?" How would being "more masculine" and happy with that masculinity cure any of these situations that reasonably approximate the conditions I've now described over and over and over again?

You see, I can identify with almost any of the comments/situations described in the link. Can you?

The message you should come away with is this: I'm not the one missing the point

Talk to you after your reading assignment.

Captain

Here's what I've read TEGH:

From 6/28/09:

From 7/05/09:

From 7/05/09:

From 7/11/09:

From 7/25/09:

NONE of the above has anything to do with your wife going through menopause or a hysterectomy. Yes, those are serious medical issues that have affected her sex-drive in a very severe manner, but they are *not* the main issue I have been trying (in vain) to get you to address. *You* can't change her medical condition. But you can change --> YOURSELF <-- for the better, and have a much happier, much more fulfilling life than you do now, irregardless of your wife and her sex-drive.

Jayce put it far more succinctly than I could.

From 8/03/09:

I've already given you my advice.

From 7/25/09:

But you would rather play the victim, both of her medical conditions *and* of her dominance over you. It's your choice.

-- B.

Your understanding of what was/is involved in the my wife's medical conditions and what went on is so stunningly superficial that it is almost embarrassing to read what you wrote.

While I am not saying that all of the behaviors that my wife displayed and are entirely the root cause of the basis for the way she "be"'s (as in the way she is being in the moment) and the way I've also responded in each of those moments, it does and has played a role. How much is hard to quantify, but I think I can say with some confidence in my answer that it has magnified some of the least pleasurable aspects of our interpersonal interactions.

It is extremely presumptuous on your part to assert NONE of what I describe has anything to do with menopause of the hysterectomy. It shows a great deal of ignorance on your part. It demonstrates just how entirely clueless you are on these matters.

So, maybe what it takes for you is a more direct description of the actual conditions rather than simply describing it as "bleeding to death." And if you still have no appreciation for what this might be like (for her) and how that can influence interactions between two people, perhaps you can ask your wife what she thinks she would feel like going through the same sort of conditions.

My wife went off birth control pills about a year before we got married. At age 45 with high blood pressure, her gynecologist recommended that she change methods. After playing around with a diaphragm for a while, she went with an IUD. Although the effects were not immediate, the regular menstrual flows and timings that she had with birth control pills gradually started to become more irregular. Sometimes her flows were quite heavy, other relatively light. When were were on our honeymoon in Hawaii, one of these heavy flows started rather unexpectedly and brought a rather quick end to a very pleasant day.

As time went on and she became more irregular (actually moving towards a constant, ever present menstrual flow), we changed contraception again, and went back to a diaphragm or to condoms. Made all of that as part of the foreplay. But four years prior to her hysterectomy and two years after we had married, for all intents and purposes, she was in a constant state of menstrual flow. There were short breaks that lasted from a few days to a couple of weeks. The last time we made love was in one of those breaks. But by the time she told me no more sex, she was also continuously bleeding. She did not use that directly as a reason when she finally said no, but it was a consideration in the previous discussions leading up to her decision. I was a good husband in that I would (fairly routinely) go purchase tampons and pads for her.

She was becoming anemic in the last 8 months before her hysterectomy. The insurance company took the position that this condition would eventually resolve itself. Finally, a few weeks before her surgery was approved and scheduled, something triggered an auto-immune response and caused the surgery to be put off for about a month. It came down to no longer having any choices were the risks from surgery were outweighed by the risk associated with her not having surgery.

What part or percentage of our interactions were being given by this underlying condition? It's hard to say.

But what is your experience with your own wife around those menstrual periods? I knew that in my own case, there was a certain degree of moodiness that had to be dealt with, and that 7-10 days after the period started, there would be wild monkey sex with an extremely horny partner. But that was becoming less and less available. But what is clear (to me at least) is that the 5-year nearly continuous (certainly continual) menstrual flow played some role in producing and magnifying some of the behaviors that I reacted and responded to.

Which brings me back to the Nice Guy Syndrome that you keep trying to apply to me. I actually spent about an hour, when I was in Baltimore last month, sitting and reading through passages of the book. While some of it is sort of common sense, it seemed to me to apply to men who are far less secure about themselves and less knowledgeable about who they are, what they think and how they work, then I am. I've told you "no, it does not apply to me." and it leaves me with an interesting question for you: What part of "no" do you not understand?

Let me contrast what I see the difference is. Do you play chess? If I was a "nice guy" in the way that Glover means it and was playing black and the opening move was P-K4, I would resign (or wouldn't go more than a few moves before resigning). If I was playing white, I might open P-K4 to be met with P-K4, and then resign (or again would not play beyond a few moves before resigning). Metaphorically speaking, that is not me and whatever I've given up has been after a good deal of struggle (say 25-35 moves into a game of chess). I don;t think you get that and that whatever I've given up under dominance, tyranny, or whatever, has not gone down easily. But as I pointed out to her a couple of weeks ago, she is so domineering not just of me but of everyone, everywhere, that she ultimately gets her way regardless of the cost (or the cost has simply not been high enough for it to deter her.

If you actually read through those posts from the link I provided, one thing should be abundantly clear: no amount of "becoming more masculine" will likely change my wife's lack of sexual response to me. I came here to see if, under the guise of an SSM. if there were other experiences that could drawn upon that were outside of the sort of response you find in the hysterectomy blogs and forums. Sadly, the answer is no.

I am left where I started: to choose to stay in a marriage that is devoid of sex or to go outside (which, for me, means ending the marriage) to reopen the possibility of an intimate sexual relationship. It can't be any starker than that.

If you don't have anything to offer, then say you don't have anything to offer and leave it at that rather than the snide little comment like the one you tacked onto the end of your last post. I am not broken. Read that again: I am not broken.

The way that the relationship works might be broken. It certainly, given the benefit of hindsight has not turned out the way that I would have predicted or expected.

It is time for you to stop treating people as broken (and reading MWD's writing it seems pretty apparent that she does not see people as broken), including yourself.

I never said that you are broken, but you *are* stuck. And you will never be unstuck until you stop blaming your unhappy situation on your wife and her medical conditions, and take back your own life once again.

I honestly do wish you good luck and happiness on your personal journey. I'll part ways with you here.

-- B.

You are, of course, free to make that choice. And, because you are so intent on being right about other people (I can understand wanting to be "right" about you own life, I don't understand your wanting to be right about me), you don't know what you don't know.

What you see as "blaming" my wife's medical condition IS THE conversation in which my wife and are currently engaged (and have been for the past 10 days). My wife has reminded me of a few things that to which I had not given much thought. For example, how being on predisone for nearly three years to deal with the autoimmune issues caused all sorts of issues, not the least of which was weight gain.

No resolution yet, just listening and understanding what we've each been through. And there have been a couple of very interesting lightbulb moments. But I hardly consider the conversation that my wife and I are having constitutes me blaming ny wife's medical condition as the cause of the issues. What is present is her view of the role that has played and that is and has been reflected in what I've shared here recently. But if you wish to see that conversation as me blaming my wife, when she's the one that is bringing her perspective to the conversation, if that's the only thing that works for you, then go for it. Maybe, if you reach our age and you have some of our experiences, you'll look back at how superficially you acted. But then again, maybe not.

Goodbye and good luck.

Make it so

Hi TEGH

You've been in my thoughts and I'm wondering how you are going.

All the best, V

Dude,

I aqm brand new to the site so I hope it's okay to jump in like this but regarding NMMNG, I have not read this book but I am almost completely sure that my wife stopped trying in our sex life, lost interest and is now mostly likely having an affair because I am guilty of the same Mr. Nice Guy behaviors, Do for others and it will come back to you, happiness comes from the outside B.S. that Glover seems to be pointing to. I am very likely no longer attractive to my wife and haven't been for some time. She's always said sex was not that important to her but I think that's a bit of a cover up in hindsight. Like you, I have a hard time not going from nice guy straight to selfish jerk in just one jump when in reality, there are many shades of grey in between. I guess I have to learn how whether she's willing to stop the affair or not. I feel you, brother. We feel that in being so willing to be giving to our partner which is what feels right to us, this should be a perfect atmosphere for love to flourish. It just doesn't seem to work that way for attration and respect and it really sucks. Good luck.

SLinSP

Sleepless,

I suggest you start your own thread - as your situation involves infidelity, on the For Newcomers section, where there are several regular posters who will be able to offer advice.

I also suggest you get NMMNG and start working on yourself and the life you want ASAP - not because this will save your marriage (it may or may not do) - but because you should have been living for yourself and not your spouse all along.

By the way, the goal is not to go from Mr Nice Guy to Mr Selfish Jerk, but from Mr Nice Guy (who is far too nice for his own good and lacks proper boundaries, and is often passive-aggressive, manipulative and resentful with it) to Mr Integrated Male (who is balanced and empowered).

We can talk more on that later.

S&A

I find it amazing that people think the opposite of detaching is to be cold & rude. They also seem to think the opposite of being Mr. Nice Guy is a selfish jerk. That is not it at all. It is showing "tough love" by standing up to his WAW and calling her on her BS and not allowing her to walk on him. Can't he show strength this way without being a selfish jerk?