You have friends out here that really feel for you and care that you are having a tough day. Keep your chin up and let us know how you are doing. We worry when we can't find you on the boards. Your wife may love you but just cannot express or show you. By all means write your letter and let your feeling out. She may not understand what you are trying to communicate to her. Sometimes the written word helps because they can re-read parts that are not clear. Sounds like you want her to understand that you still envision a life with her, so let her read that. Good idea to write this letter to her, she may have to have something tangible like this letter to hold onto hope. It is definately worth a try.
It's hard to have patience after trying for so long, but the situation has changed by your moving out of the house. Give it time and don't make any decisions until you know that you have a clear head. It's hard to do especially when we are in turmoil with our situations, but take your time making those life changing decisions. Give her time to make an effort, too.
Our lives are in sync again. I left a week ago, staying with really terrific, supportive friends. I'm not really grieving but the realization that my marriage might be ending is a sobering thought. I'm willing to try if he will, but just don't know what is in store for us.
Hope is definately a good thing, and I think that was an excellent point you made, Johanna, that Cloud's wife may also need to be reassured that he can still see her in his life.
I guess my suggestion of C9 staying focused on what his wife is saying rather than focusing on his feelings is because she may not feel heard... she may interpret that as him justifying cause and action, rather than as a validation of her feelings. And whereas I think C9 is completely valid in all that he feels, he has already made a definite statement on his feelings by leaving.
I was just suggesting that he give her a turn to let out all those feelings she has kept bottled up out of her system. Doesn't mean you can't tell her you love her and can still see her in your life, though.
How are you doing, Jo? How did H respond to you leaving? Are you hanging in there?
You are tearing up the boards again today, thank God.
I'm on the boards everyday keeping up with the changes and frustrations that we are all going or have gone through. The words of advice and wisdom from many of you caring people out here really have helped me through some really rough days and nights. I can't thank all of you enough for your strength and insights. Your friendships have lit the path of hope for me on many a dark day. My sincere are profound thanks to each one of you.
Anyway, H is stuck in deep denial of situation. When we communicate he does not want to talk other than mundane life business stuff. Very tough on me, but nothing new. I'm not angry with him, more dissappointed that even thought he claims he values our relationship he is so scared and closed he cannot act. Might be the shock that I actually left and told him that I would not come home until there were substantial changes made. When I left he helped me carry my things to my car. I lost it completely. He actually cried a bit, too which I thought was pretty major for him. Right now it is a relief not to see him everyday, not crying myself so sleep at night wanting his touch. I would rather be alone than suffer more rejection from him. We will see what will happen since this is still really a new change in the dynamics. I'm doing okay, but then I have the support of friends and family. He has chosen to be alone for now.
H is supposed to be trying to get back into counseling, has mentioned it often thinking that the counseling will be the magic solution to this problem. His denial is so deep I wonder what else is going on with him, but I have to take care of myself first. I needed to take a break and get myself whole before I make some decisions, too. I'll update you all once in awhile.
My W went to her second session today, and emailed me to check in with her. I stopped by her office (remember we work together.... UGH!), and I closed the door to hear what she wanted to talk about. We talked about trust. She keeps reiterating that about me..."I have to be able to trust you". I tell her that this is a fine thing to expect, but that sometimes the standards she sets for me can be too exacting, and that the boundaries move to suit her. She asked if I was giving up on the marriage, which surprised me a little, since it showed she didn't want me to...it was the way she said it. I told her again that I can imagine us being in a great relationship, I just DON'T KNOW HOW TO GET THERE. She said she does not know either.
I may have brought the mood down with this, but I had to get it off my chest: I told her that I have put the pieces of our history together, and believe that she has not loved me for much of our marriage, that in fact she finds me repulsive. I long thought that she loved me because, after all, she was still with me. But I think she just has a stronger moral compass than I do....she stayed because it was she made a commitment, but not because she LOVED me. I told her that, when we made love in the past, she just wanted me off of her as quickly as possible, making me feel that I was objectifying her. I have rarely felt wanted by her. She said that she can't see herself always enjoying "the act". I replied that that would likely be a problem for me; if she doesn't enjoy it, I sure as hell won't either, and we'll be right here again. I had an opening, and had to get honest. This isn't just about me sitting back and taking a beating, ladies. We both have issues to bring to the table. But when she talks about her feelings and needs, I hear her out lovingly. I want her to get it all out, for once!
I told her that I ned to find a place to call home, and will be getting an apartment. I am on 3 weeks of living out of my car, and I can't do it much more. I am working 15 hour days, pretty much precluding any reading of DB for now. I collapse at midnight, and rise to get back to work at 7. I'm not hiding; I'm really this busy.
Anyway...blah, blah, blah. I better get back to work here. Check ya later. Sweet dreams.
By all means find a safe place to live so you can get some rest. With all of the stress that you are under with your R, living in your car, working too many hours, esp with your W, you need a safe haven for you to get away and find a bit of quiet so your mind can calm to think rationally. And you need to get some rest. You have to try to take care of yourself during these trying times. It's hard but you owe it to yourself. Could you possibly take a long weekend and get away to some friends? Sometimes a change of routine really helps the perspective of what is going on in your life. I got away this weekend to some relations, had a ball, got some good advice from them and feel so much better.
You are not giving up on your R, I'm not either. I just needed to find some peace and some flat ground to stop the merry go round. It's been better for me in the last couple of weeks but it is still tough.
She went to her second session, that is some progress, you talked, even though it was a hard conversation, things are coming out which is good. I know that you want to get "it all out" but you may discover that since this has been a long term problem, the issues will reveal kind of hapharzardly. Just keep talking and trying to communicate. Even though you feel that she has not been physically close to you for a large part of your R, she may really love you, but S*x and physical intimacy scare the crap out of her. At least you are talking about that issue. My H loves me, and treats me very similarly as your W treats you. Patience is hard in these situations, I know we have been patient with our Spouses for a long time. You and I are still willing and trying the patience part. That's a good sign that we have not given up.
I hope today is better for you. Keep posting as it really helps you talk though the dark moods.
I understand the points you want to make to your wife, but at this point, the two of you are still speaking different languages. AND THAT'S OKAY.
I'm not suggesting you let her lacerate you and all you do is stand there and take it. Like I said, you do not have to 'agree' with what she is saying.
You two are still not 'hearing' each other, and that could be because you are still very early in this process. C9, you can continue to try and make your point to her about your lack of intimacy, but try to understand that she is not to the 'comprehension' stage just yet. She'll get there. She's only been to two counseling sessions.
Perhaps the next time you talk about trust, you can draw her out a little more so you can understand what that 'blanket' statement means. Instead of rising to defend yourself, ask her if she thinks she can further explain what she means by lack of trust.
I mean, 'lack of trust' is such a blanket statement, I don't blame you for getting defensive. Jesus, I'm sure that feels like a direct hit to the basic fabric of your character. I'm sure you feel, "well, of course I'm a trustworthy person, how the hell could you even say that?"
However, this could be a possible scenario for what is going on with her, because believe it or not, I understand the statement she is making to you as I have made it myself to my H.
When we were at our worst time, I did not in fact 'trust' my H and told him so. Now had I bothered to really think about what I was saying, I would have realized what an unfair thing that was to say to him. Because:
I trusted him to go to work every day. I trusted that he loved our children as much as I did. I trusted that he was a kind man. I trusted that he was an excellent father. I trusted that he was an ethical man. I trusted him with my life.
And the list went on and on... you get the gist.
So for me to say that I didn't 'trust' him in a blanket kind of way was soooooo unfair, and he was deeply offended when I would say such a thing to him. Well, sh!t, who could blame him?
The shrink went through this exercise with me, and I was amazed to find how much I DID trust my H. So then what I had to do was figure out what specific thing I did NOT trust him with. When I was able to do that, I could explain it to my H, and because I was not leveling a gereral character assassination at him, he was able to HEAR me. He was able to acknowledge the roll he was playing in my mistrust of one very specific behavior of his. When that one very specific behavior of his was changed and removed, there was no reason for me NOT to trust him. But he couldn't DO anything for me until he knew what it was. I think you would probably be very willing to do the same for your wife if you knew what the hell she was talking about.
There could also be 'trust' issues she has with you that she is hanging on to out of habit, not because she doesn't really 'trust' you. Until she is led through an exercise where she really has to figure out what her issue is, she will continue to hang on to those out dated trust issues.
Do you see what I mean? This is an exercise you can do with her, or it is one you can suggest she do on her own, or with her shrink. What do you think?
Quote: I told her again that I can imagine us being in a great relationship, I just DON'T KNOW HOW TO GET THERE. She said she does not know either.
You know what? You two AGREED on something. This is a reason to celebrate. The two of you were able to acknowledge to each other that you don't have all the answers. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with love. Of course you LOVE each other, even though you may not feel 'LOVING' toward each other AT THE MOMENT. And, like Johanna said, she was looking for reassurance from you that you still loved her and wanted to work things out. Why would she do that if she didn't love you and was getting ready to bail?
She loves you, guy. She just does not know how to act in a LOVING manner toward you. I'm sorry, but your wife does not sound to me to be so absent of intelligence that she would hang with you for so long if she DIDN'T love you.
Physcial intimacy is probably the most significant way you share and express your love. But just because she does not express her love in the same manner does not mean she does not love you. What it means is that she is misinterpreting your actions. That IS ALL.
WHY she is misinterpreting your actions is probably linked to her 'trust' issue -- what she still needs to identify.
Yes, you do need to get things off your chest -- and I hope that you will make time to go see a counselor yourself very soon. You've got a lot of your own anger and resentment to work through. But remember, she has the SSM book, and she IS reading it. That book is talking for you, okay? There is a mountain of stuff to absorb there. Give her some time. If she at any point experiences the horror I did when I realized what I was so unintentionally doing to my H by not having sex with him -- you just can't even imagine. It's a really, really tough one to own.
Because you are living out of your car, because you are working UNGODLY long hours, because you are stressed, lonely, scared, and probably depressed, I'd say it is going to be a little tough for you to see the progress the two of you are making. As an outsider looking in, compared to where you were and where you are now, I'd say the two of you have come an incredibly long way.
Are YOU willing to trust ME on this one? If so, let up on yourself a little and acknowledge that your judement may be off a little given the ungodly stress you are under.
It's okay, you can do this -- I KNOW you can because I truly think you are the only person I've ever met in my life who is actually as stubborn as I am. And I'm one hell of a gal. Which means you must be one hell of a guy.
Just keep posting. And if you find that my endless stream of optimism, lectures and incredible whit and wisdom is grating on your nerves, just tell me, and I'll back off. (At least I'm pretty sure I can back off).
You can do this. Hey, I believe in you. Now how lucky can one guy get, huh?
F*CK! Sorry for the incredibly long post. Like you have the time to read all that -- riveting though it may be. Jo seems much better at keeping things short and still be supportive.
Sounds like you are making some progress as well, hm?
Do you think your H would benefit from Michele's Divorce Busting book? Do you think he'd read it? Wonder if your friends would be willing to send it to him anonymously?
How are you both doing today? If I'm grateful for anything today, it's that I live in the city and not the hillsides, so my house is intact, and not burning, even though I'm not living in it. I have to stop watching the news here in the office, because this brush fire stuff out here is depressing all on its own.
My W actually has been specific about why she idstrusts me, but a lot of that distrust is out of fear, not reality. In return, I told her that I distrust her in the sense that I fear she cannot be attracted to me enough to have a healthy sex life. I take your point that she must love me, or she would have been gone long ago, but if she really loved me, why would she knowingly deprive me of the single thing she knew I wanted from the relationship. She KNOWINGLY, and WILLFULLY, deprived me of it. Was it love, or some form of co-dependecy she was engaging in by staying married to me? This is what I'm wondering with all seriousness. I do believe that I have been trustworthy in so many ways, but she call that "mechanincal stuff" (i.e. going to work, taking care of the kids, cooking dinners, etc.). I can't WIN!
Nevertheless, we're taking it a day at a time for now. She is going to the therapist not only for us, but also for herself. She may decide that she's better off taking her chances with another man, than staying in a place where she just can't let go of the past. The ball's in her court. I have been to hours upon hours of therapy, and I really don't want to go back. I really don't. I have been crystal clear about what I want from her, but she has not been clear, or consistent, with me. I am willing to go to the therapist, but I feel like this is her issue to work out at this point. I can't MAKE her be more trustworthy of me. That has to come from within.
Johanna mentioned getting away for a weekend, and I may do just that. Have to literally pull myself out of my muck to do it. It's so easy, on the weekends, to just hole-up in a motel room, or my office, and veg.
Back to work now. Will check in tonight. Hope all is well in your worlds.
I spent hours finding books with similar themes and directions that he would be more prone to read that fit our R better. I read, highlighted, and made comments in the margins. We talked about that I was the one in the R that kept searching and learning things. He thought that reading the books would be doable, but if and when he does, he can tell me. He is a big boy and has to take responsibility and stop the denial that we have serious problems.
I'm not pushing too hard for anything right now since our separation is less than 2 weeks old and we both need a level playing field to work on. I took away his comfort zone, me, and I need to see what that will do to the dynamic of the situation. He is so far in denial, but that is just like him.
C9, Is there anyway that you can delegate some of your responsibilities to to others for a short time so that you are not working such insane hours? You seem to be burning the candles on both ends and I worry about when both ends meet in the middle, the flame will be too hot.
You deserve to have a home that is your haven, a place away from the insanity of your life. I lived in my car years ago and it was so hard. You deserve better for yourself. You have to take care of yourself first or you will not be in a good place to care for others. Let us know what is up with you. We want to help.
Re: Paxil Still taking this crap, but it does take the edge off of the black hole days. The pit is not quite so deep and dark so will continue to take for a bit until I know what is going on with my R. Still hate this, but one's gots to do what one's got to do to survive.
