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I don't know if you can answer this, but I know that most of the weekend is the 2 of you working alone together I guess with some guidance, not much public sharing, etc. My W doesn't open up. She rarely talks about serious things like this. I have a hard time with it, too, but I am already coming out of my comfort zone in order to fix this. Do you think she will be able to get anything out of this weekend? I used to call her a Vulcan because she rarely showed any emotion. I have never even seen her cry, even after her mom died.
Just wondering.

Saw my ic tonight. He says more communication is needed. I should talk to her about us, why sometimes she is done, and other times she is not so sure. Also, I should bring up the sex issue.
What say you all?

Orich, as I've told you before, I think you are one of the nice guys, but honest to goodnes I just want to shake you until your liver rattles!! Do you know the number one reason that a wife walks away? B/c her H has not heard her over the years she's tried to get him to listen to her. And....you apparently have not listen to what I have told you....so I am rather discouraged and put out. For one thing, you are so dang hung up on those two letters that she sent you until you can't see, hear, or think about much of anything else. You keep going back to that one letter over & over & over again. You jumped on that and you keep clinging to that one little letter and you ignore everything else. I wished you would forget about that second letter she sent saying she regretted the first one. B/c you have simply went downhill, IMO, and become needy and clingy ever since she gave you that line!

Would you answer something for me? What does "detaching" mean to you? You have brought up, again, the connection of detaching with "being cold" and I've tried to tell you that detaching does not mean going cold!

I suppose if you don't "get" what it is, then there is no wonder you cannot do it. You haven't come close as I can tell. Maybe the way you act around your W and the way you post here are two very different ways. The fact you can't drop the "ticket" ordeal is a pretty good clue that you aren't detached the proper way. If you were, it would not bother you that she forgot to tell you or that she didn't invite you. You would be planning how you would be spending your time while she's gone to the concert. I bet she isn't even conerned how you will spend your time b/c she's expecting you to babysit!

What do you do to GAL? Don't tell about your kids b/c you need to do something without the kids. What do you do to be mysterious? This is very important. Has she been curious as to where you are going, or what you are "really" doing....why you are out so late and who you may be with? Heck no, she's not! So, are you going to do anything to change that? The only response I remember you giving was that you wanted to spend your time with your kids and you came home late from work, and yada, yada. Sometimes LBS have to make sacrifices for the time being, in order to have a long time in the future!

Your W has nothing to be concerned about. She isn't worried that you are out "looking" around. She isn't wondering if you are dancing with some hot chick. She's not worried that you are flirting with a young pretty thing at some bar. Why? B/c you are so obvious! There is nothing mysterious about you! She has you in a place that is very secure and what's there to be concerned about? Don't you think you need to change the music? What you are doing is not working. Until she gets her attention off herself and onto you, it is a losing battle. Right now, both of you have 100% focus on her. What can you do to get her attention on you and forget about herself?

So what if you have a smoking hot body ... if she isn't interested in it? Until she realizes that somebody else may be interested in you, then you can go work out at the gym till you die with old age and she won't care. Am I suggesting that you date other women? No! Some people here on the board think that LBS should do that and to make your S jealous. I can't suggest that b/c of the way I believe, but you can be mysterious and get her curiousity up--and do it without lying! And...if you've done this I sure missed it!



I'm pretty sure I have talked to you about this, also. In fact, wasn't I very "plain" about my Internet activity with young men? Did I mention that some of them were in their early 20's? One was 19. Any person who has known me all my life would stand up and tell you that Sandi would never, ever do such things that I did! I was a good Christian woman. I had humpteen jobs in my Church and was a woman of "faith". I was a teacher, for crying out loud! In other words, Orich, I was everything you have described about your wife. How can I make you understand? You won't listen! It makes me sick when you say things like you said in this quote. How many times do you have to be reminded that she is not that woman any longer? You know what? You are blind b/c you want to be blind. You don't want to know the truth! Not only is she lying to you, but you are lying to yourself. You better wake up and realize that she cares for NOBODY but herself. She thinks of NOBODY but herself. When she said she "forgot" to tell you about the tickets for her & niece...she was probably right, she forgot-- b/c you are never on her mind!

There are many reasons she could have written that "regret" letter to you, and I think I mentioned that before. However, I seriously doubt that it was due to her feeling any regret for thinking about leaving.

I have told you the same things over and over and I don't think you hear any of it b/c you have your head stuck in the sand! Just like you keep your head in the sand where your W is concerned. I tried to be nice to you, but I decided the only way you will pay any attention is to talk like a WAW!

OK, well, I doubt she is going to worry about O cheating since she is well aware of his religious convictions.

25 MLC, so happy to hear that you went to Retrouvaille and had a good experience there. Now you know what I have been trying to tell people. It's great to hear someone else saying the same thing I do.

Orich, i think you two will do fine at Retrouvaille. She will open up, maybe not as much as you do, but you will definitely get some answers to your questions. That is something they are very successful at.

As far as the IC's recommendation. I think it would be good to have more communication pre-Retrouvaille if possible. But I am sure that you will not solve your problems before you go. So, yes, some communication improvement would be good, but I don't recommend pushing to get to a deep level. So I would say, try talking about things that aren't hot button issues. For example, maybe you could discuss things relating to the children and school. You probably won't even get to the sex issue at the Retrouvaille weekend. That may not come up until the Post sessions. I do think there are a lot of small questions you ask us that you could ask her about, such as what restaurant does she want to eat at. Just try to talk to her like a friend. Going into Retrouvaille as friends would put you light years ahead of most of the people at the weekend.

I don't think Orich would have to do more than a few 180's to act mysterious enough to get his W's attention and wonder what he's doing and get her focus on him instead of it being the other way around. Of couse she isn't expecting him to cheat and as I don't think he should either. Why break one of the Commandments of God and bring on a whole other set of problems in the M? What I'm saying is that Orich needs to do something else to cause her to be curious about his comings & goings. He can do very innoncent things like going to the mall to walk around and look at some new clothes, but he doesn't have to give her all the details. I don't believe in lying in order to be mysterious, but just don't give a play by play of every thing so it makes her wonder. A few times of him going out looking hot & sexy and acting up beat about it...should cause her to wonder if there is more to it, and that gets her attention on Orich...where it should be. I haven't expressed it as well as MWD in her book, but she does teach doing this as part of the DBing. I think his WAW needs to be shook up and see the man she has, but he's got to do more than follow her around acting pitiful and feeling sorry for himself.

Thank you, Sandi. It is obvious you care, and for that I am grateful. You took the time out to point out my DBing flaws, and I will take it to heart. You are correct, I am having a very hard time detaching. It is difficult while living together and having kids together. I can't imagine just leaving the house at night saying only that I am going out, I'll be home late. She has always told me where she was going and when she would be home.
I will add this, I do act differently at home than the way I post here. Probably not different enough to be effectively DBing, though.
Sara brings up a good point. I don't think W would suspect me of doing anything with another woman behind her back. She knows I am trying to save or marriage, and she also knows that I could no more do that than commit robbery or murder, it is a mortal sin.
Now, I realize that her perceiving that I might be turning my interest away from her towards someone else might be effective. I will have to find a way to test that theory.
I also realize that she is all about herself right now. But forgetting to tell me about her going to the concert is still BS in my opinion. She still has some interest in me to the effect that she calls me for opinions, asks me about my work, and other little things.
Whatever, it doesn't really matter anyway. What you have written is correct. I have to re-double my efforts to detach. I began to do so in earnest after her letter (I won't bring that up again). It was easy, because she was pretty final about the whole thing. I will try to put myself back in that mindset.
Again, thank you for your concern and advice. Without it, I might continue to screw up my chances of reuniting with my W. And, quite honestly, I don't know how I would be able to live with myself after failing two marriages AND my chances at saving one of them.

O-

I just wanted to hug Sandi after reading her post to you. Unfortunately sometimes we have to hear things the hard way.

I have always agreed with Sandi on the fact that you are so kind (for lack of a better word). Too kind for your own good I think.

I wanted to ask you something and now may be a good time. But I want you to answer it, not just thank me, as I know you have been very good and not answering people's questions to you here.

What do you talk about in therapy? In your sessions with the nuns? In you conversations with the priests? Not necessarily looking for details but do you only talk about your M and W?

You have some issues. You, I and others have identified them. Areas that you could really work on. Things that will help you detatch, even if you don't realize it, things that will help you clear out the old junk, and make you a bigger, better, stronger Orich. Then you will be more able to really tackle this M, but you might not have to focus on it so much because you will be different and that MIGHT be all the change that is necessary.

And then you might be able to view your W differently. Right now I still feel like you just want her to snap out of this. But O, you have been doing this for a while now, and you see she isn't just going to simply snap out of it.

Yes some of the stuff she is doing is BS (to use your words). But you know what, right now, she is doing what she wants to do. What makes her feel good and she isn't so worried about your opinion. She is changing. You are going to have to change as well or she will more than likely leave you in the dust. And believe me, no matter what her convictions are/were, she will do things you probably never imagined she would do because she is searching for something. Don't get paranoid now, but you are going to have to accept this, even if you don't like it, even if it screams of disrespect, and maybe, just maybe if you grow too, you and she will laugh about all of this in 50 years. If you even remember it then.

Your wife sounds like she has always carried the responsibility for the home, kids, her elderly father. That is a lot. She then experienced a whole bunch of loss pretty quickly. A ton of stuff. She is wanting and needing something different. Part of it is support from you. Part of it is something for herself that maybe is not family related at all. Part of it may just be a break.

O-you remind me of a very good friend of mine. A very nice man. A civil servant. He came here last year. He was willing to try things to "make his W happy again." But he couldn't step outside of himself enough to look at what he really needed to. Guess what he is doing now a year later? Preparing D papers because she is gone. Yes she too had issues that she needed to work on. Yes, she was not perfect in the M. But the truth is, she is planning a future for herself, even if it is alone, and he hasn't changed in one bit.

We have a saying in MLC forum, this is not just the journey of the MLCer, it sets us all on our own journey of learning. IF we choose to take it.

O-go back and reread your threads. Read them like you are a stranger. Then really and truly begin your journey.

Yeah, I have issues. Co-dependancy and low self esteem chief among them. This is one thing we talk about in therapy. It is also hard for me to open up in therapy, because I have a problem with therapy. I always believed that a man should be able to take care of things on his own. It took a lot just for me to admit I have issues.
So, we talk about my co-dependancy and ways to break out of it. I am not fully out of it yet, thus my problems detaching.
We also talk about my R with W. He gives me advice that is different than what I get here, so I am trying to either find one that works better than the other, or a fine line of a combination of both. He believes in communication. He wants W and I to talk about our R. When she does something like go to a concert without me, I should let her know that it upsets me. Isn't that pursuing? He suggests that she has sexual urges as well, so I should at least be tentatively trying to initiate sex. Is that clingy and needy?
Basically he is saying to do the opposite of going dark. So, I am confused. To add to this confusion, W is often suggesting plans to do family things. Tonight we are taking the boys to a carnival. In two weeks she wants to book a trip to Mystic, CT. to take the boys to the seaport and aquarium. When we are doing things as a family, she becomes closer to me, we interact with each other in ways that we used to. So, is it wrong to encourage these times together?
Please understand, I do know what you all are telling me about detaching, and I do see where I am clinging. But there is evidence of possible re-connection in these other paths or instances.
I used to tell W when we were first together how surprised but happy that a woman like her could fall for a guy like me. I told her I married up. And I really meant it. Through therapy, I no longer feel that strongly. I know I am a good person, a person of worth, and that any woman would be lucky to have me. And if I didn't want my wife so much, I would be able to put myself out there and start reeling in the women who were interested in me. But that's the point. Am I delusional, or do I really want the woman I have. What I mean is, I don't believe that I want to stay married because I found someone who would take me. This woman likes me, so I better hold on to her for dear life or else I'll be alone for the rest of my life. But maybe my brain is so wrapped up in co-dependancy that that I only believe I want my wife instead of the truth that I don't want to be alone.
I don't think that is where I am. Someone started a thread where we were to list the things that are positive in our spouses. I could have written a novel. My wife is a wonderful woman with whom I love to be around. She is the one I want to be with over all the other ones. I don't know if this sounds clingy, but it is true.
All that being said, I'm sure that she perceives me as being clingy or pursuing. That is the line I am trying to learn how to walk. Keep myself from going overboard, but keep her interested in the family, which seems to trigger her interest in me. Isn't that the goal? Have the WAS interested in us again?
You know what? I am a nice guy. Too nice? Probably. There are times where I should and will in the future put my foot down. I have let myself be walked on before, but not now.
With my spiritual director, I examine my current relationship with God. How I pray to him, what I believe about him, and what is his plan for me. We talk about how this situation affects my relationship with God as well. I believe he has called me for something special, and I thought it was to ordained ministry. Now, I believe that might not be what the calling was, so I discern his calling with my spiritual director.
My wife did in fact carry most of the responsibility for the house. But with the exception of the bills which she refuses to relinquish or even share control of, she has very little to concern herself with now. I am running the household. From routine stuff to major maintenance and repairs, I am handling it all. She still cleans and dusts when she feels the need, but I have my own schedule of windows, filter changing, garbage removal, etc. Her dad and I have become very close, we spend more time together than I do with my wife. She doesn't have to worry about him being lonely, and I am close enough to monitor his health discreetly.
Finally, the hardest thing I have to do is NOT try and ease her pain or fix her problem. Yeah, she is hurting, too. Partly because of me and I fully own up to that, but also partly because of life's circumstances. As her husband, I want to comfort her, help her heal, solve her problems. I can't do that in this instance, and it is a hard instinct to fight.
This isn't a rebuttal. I know I have work to do, and still more changes to make in myself. After all of your stinging retorts, and the advice of my IC, I realize I can no longer wait in limbo. I am still hoping for some re-connection at our Retrouvaille weekend, but I am not going to just sit around and wait till then. I am going to be implementing more DB technics between now and then, and will rely on you guys for advice on fine tuning my approach as I update.
I plan on spending some time re-reading my past posts as recommended. Hopefully I will identify what you are pointing out to me and help make it clear in my mind what I could be doing better.
I believe I can change. I have made major changes in myself up till now, so I should be able to continue. My biggest challenge is detaching. I would ask that you all continue to visit my thread and continue to critique my methods. Don't give up on me, I realize you must feel like you are banging your head against a wall.
Thank you.

O-you are probably very right that your biggest problem is detatching. Ok co-dependent. So what are you going to do to break the cycle? W thinks not much. Surprise her.

Hard thing on the counselor simply because it is counter what you hear a lot here. You sort of have to do what works. No you can't deny your own feelings forever (sexual needs, etc...) But if your wife had a physical illness that kept her from doing that, you would go with it until she was able. It is sort of the same thing. Unfortunately, W can't make you feel better right now because she can't make herself feel better right now. You can't fix her, but you can let her see that you won't be a doormat. There is a great thread about Pursuing and Distance in the MLC resource thread which is at the top of the MLC archives forum.

One of the things I have learned through this process is that I want my H, I love my H, but I don't NEED my H in order to live my life. That realization has completly taken me out of the pursuit process.

We still do things as a family and they make ME feel like there is closness but then he pulls back. He too may feel closness and just isn't ready or able to accept it.

Hey, go to Mystic. I loved it as a child and wish I had been able to take my own S there. Go and enjoy. Take it for what it is--a nice day. That is it no strings attached, no hidden meanings, just a nice day.

Life can only be lived from one day to the next so why not try to see the joy in each one instead of worrying so much about what tomorrow, next month, or next year is going to bring.

Great post Orich!

Truth is we`re all here because we all need to change ourselves. The enemy is within.

And Sandi was probably sent by St Michael to tell you-and the rest of us DB newbies-where we`re falling down!

That detaching thing is so damn hard. I`m finding Melanie Beattie`s "The Language of Letting Go" helpful. She`s writeen extensively on the co dependency issue.

Gary Zukav`s The Heart of the Soul is excellent for helping us use our inner God given resources too.

Cat and Mach have written extensively and wisely re MLC on my threads. Great to have wise words in this dark place.