What is toxic hope defined as? Just the sound of it sounds like how I fell some times.
Spybunny? What kind of abuse? My H is not physically abusive like I would think phsycal abuser would be but I think he is more emotional, mental, and verbally abusive. I shall have to hop on over to your stich and read yours to see what we have in common.
We have been going to counceling but I still see the same stuff that has been going on lately with my H. I made an appointment to go by myself this next time and I want to talk to the councelor about these same issues. I want to see what he has to say about it too and see if he thinks that my H needs some other type of counceling that he can help with or get my H to go to. I sometimes think that if it comes from some one else that my H respects then maybe it will get through to him better that there is a problem with him.
By the way sg....I have my computer on a password that he has no clue about. I clear my histories all the time and make sure that I have things secreted away on here. I hate to do that but I just feel better about doing it.
Me-31 Him-28 D1-9 D2-6 Married 5-06 Seperated 12-07 He filed 1-08 Reconciled 4-08 D dropped 7-08 Bomb dropped about H's activities outside the marriage 4-21-09 Filed for D 4-28-09 Trying to make a go of it 6-09
I am reminded frequently that this statement is so true when it comes to denial in pathological love relationships. There’s something about a narcissist and psychopath that can make you forget all about their pathology and return to your previous ‘fog’ of beliefs. F.O.G.–Fear, Obligation and Guilt.
Entrenched in the partner is the dire desire to have a normal partner. Couple that with the NPD (Narcissitic Personality Disorder) and PP’s (Psychopath’s) ability to convince you of their, at least, fleeting normalacy and you have a woman who has dug her finger nails into the nano-second of his normal behavior and she’s not gonna let it go! Otherwise highly educated, bright, and successful women can be reduced to blank-stared-hypnotised-believers when it comes to believing he is normal, can be normal, or that it’s her that is really the messed up one.
Many therapists miss this process in working with the partners–they feel they have made substaintial headway in helping her (or him) understand the nature of the unchangeable-ness of the disorder and then what appears to be out of nowhere, she’s blank-staring and hypnotised yet again.
The only thing that has changed is her belief system. Obviously an NPD and/or PP is not capable of true sustainable change. He didn’t change. But her desire to believe his normalacy and to deny his pathology is the only thing that has changed. It’s not so much a ‘change’ per se, as it is a return to straddling the fence about the belief system.
Most partners live a life of cognitive dissonance–this conflict between ‘He’s good/He’s bad’ that is so distracting they never resolve the internal conflict of whether he is MORE good than bad, or MORE bad than good. They live in a fog of circulating remembrances that support both view points–remembering the good, but still feeling the bad. This circulating remembrance keep them straddling the fence with the inability to resolve a consistent belief system about him.
This inability to hold a consistent belief system is what causes cognitive dissonance, it’s also what increases it and causes intrusive thoughts (join us this week for a tele-seminar on How to Manage Dissonance and Intrusive Thoughts). Dissonance is caused by thought inconsistency which leads eventually to her behavioral inconsistency–she breaks up and makes up constantly. Thought and behavioral inconsistency increase Dissonance which increases Intrusive Thoughts. No wonder she can’t get symptom relief!
Her desire to ‘believe it’ doesn’t make it true. It doesn’t make him normal. It doesn’t cure his NPD or Psychopathy. It only keeps her stuck straddling a belief system that has caused her emotional paralysis. In a crude way of understanding this–the only thing that happens when you’re straddling a fence is you get a fence post up your butt! Try moving when your paralyzed by a fence post!
Just because you believe it, doesn’t mean he’s ok, he’s going to stop doing the thing he said he’d stop, that counseling is going to work, that there never was anything wrong with him, that it’s probably you….or any of the other items you tell youself in order to stay in a relationship of pathological disaster.
Even Benjamin Franklin said “We hold these truths to be self evident…” For us in the field of psychopathology, these self evident truths are that pathology is permanent whether you believe it or not. http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/index.php?s=toxic+hope
There are three reasons that your relationship cannot improve, even though you keep thinking it will. These are primary problems that are so influential that they are an obstacle that must be cleared before real progress in the relationship is possible.
#1 Someone is frequently dishonest and that person is unwilling to identify that behavior as an individual problem that he or she wants to work on. An ongoing affair whether it is known or secret.
#2 Psychological or medical disorders that are not treated.
These include: depression, manic depression, attention deficit disorder, PMS or menopause disorders, post traumatic stress and anxiety disorders such as obsessive-compulsive or post-traumatic stress disorder.
Post traumatic Stress is often a result of abusive, neglectful or violent experiences in childhood. These can experiences can profoundly affect how someone later experiences issues of trust and conflict in current relationships. If symptoms from any of these illnesses are present and the person is unwilling to get treatment for it then there is a much reduced prospect for significant change in the relationship. First things first.
#3 One partner uses physical violence or emotional intimidation and is unwilling to say that this is an individual problem that s/he wants to work on separately from the relationship.
Saying, "I'm sorry. It won't happen again." is a good thing to hear from your partner. More importantly though is whether the intimidation ceases. The frequency, intensity or duration should be getting better. If it doesn't then you may have 'Toxic Hope.'
Toxic hope is waiting for someone to change when there is no realistic reason to believe that it will happen. Battered women, or men, who keep hoping something will change, perhaps even when their partner has never even admitted that they have a control problem; are in toxic hope. Even though there is a fair effort made; the frequency and magnitude of the continuing offenses are severe enough that the other partner does not feel safe enough to continue within the relationship.
We emphasize 'progress, not perfection' so the issue isn't that slips or mistakes are made. The important thing is does the person eventually recognize his or her responsibility in the conflict and can the person show some concern for how that affects you. Or, if one person is unable to reasonably follow the guidelines and is not willing to seek further help.
What do I mean when I say "an individual problem that he or she is willing to work on separate from the relationship?" Or what is meant by getting 'further help'? A person can work on the issues they struggle with alone by reading books on the subject of violence or lying but few people are able to do this without the help of others.
Using the help of others could mean going to a professional therapist who specializes in the area that needs work or it can mean going to a self -help group for that particular problem. If physical violence is the problem then my recommendation is to attend a professionally led anger management or domestic violence group. Having worked for ten years in these groups I can say that the men are pleasantly surprised that they can learn useful methods that benefit their relationships. For most of the men it is the first time that they are exposed to the principle that being vulnerable will not result in being hurt.
* One partner refuses to ever consider forgiving the other for some past wrong committed by the other, even when that partner has humbly asked for forgiveness.
* Alcohol or drug dependence or abuse (prescribed medicines too!) Other addictions such as food, sex, spending, gambling or work are huge impediments to progress in a relationship which are sometimes overlooked or simply denied.
* Leaving a psychologically violent or abusive relationship. If you feel scared that you will be hurt, pursued or injured if you leave then trust your feelings and seek help from a women's shelter or hotline before taking action. Talk with them and consider the advice or recommendations that is given to you. The most dangerous time, physically, for the abused wife (or husband) is at the time of separating.
There were armchair quarterbacks saying Nicole Brown Simpson should have left O.J. and divorced him. She was leaving him! It was then that she was killed.
If you are physically abused by your partner call 1 800 978-3600 to talk to a domestic violence counselor to learn about resources in your area. You are not alone!
If violence is occuring in your home then break the isolation. And for the person whose anger is out of control, please seek the competent help of anger management specialists. Why wait for a neighbor's phone call to initiate your criminal record? Do something courageous and positive NOW! Seek the help of professionals who can help you. Stop saying "I'm sorry." and take some real steps toward repeating what probably happened in the family you grew up in.
Checklist Before You Leave: If you have done these things then you can leave knowing that you did everything you could before deciding for sure to leave. These do not apply if there is violence, addiction, continuing adultery or unrepentent lying in the relationship. Things to think about when you consider ending a relationship:
- When your partner apologizes does s/he mention both what s/he did and how s/he's hurt you?
- If any form of physical control, intimidation or violence occurs, does it get justified (ie. "I wouldn't have done it if you didn't....")?
- If apologies are made is there reference made to the person's intention about changing future behavior, or is there further justification for the disrespectful behavior?
- Are you growing in this relationship?
- Is the other person growing in this relationship? Is there improvement? It's a process. Is there an expressed willingness to grow? Or are you assuming your partner wants to change his/her behavior and attitudes. Remember we're looking for 'Progress and not Perfection'...the rest of the list of things to consider is contained in the manual.)
The three questions to ask yourself that will help you really know if you should leave the relationship ..... are contained in the workbook.
These seem to be like the author is sitting in my house when the articles were written.
Do you think that my councelor can understand the toxic hope one? Are they trained to see that stuff and to help both sides of the matter? I can see the changes in my H but they do not stay for long, I wonder if that is because he has not actually said to himself that he has a problem. I would bet on that on.
If my H could change things about himself then, I dare say that, that there could be hope for us but not until then.
I had wrote him a letter and stuck it in his bag when he left for Mississippi. I found out last night that he has read it. I had told him to take a few days and think about it before we talk about it and that is what he said that he was doing. In the meantime I have noticed an increase of calls or texts that are just saying 'how is your day?' 'just wanted to say hi', 'I miss you', 'i love you.', 'can't wait to go on vacation with my beautiful wife!'. That kind of stuff. Don't know if it has something to do with the letter or not.
Me-31 Him-28 D1-9 D2-6 Married 5-06 Seperated 12-07 He filed 1-08 Reconciled 4-08 D dropped 7-08 Bomb dropped about H's activities outside the marriage 4-21-09 Filed for D 4-28-09 Trying to make a go of it 6-09
These seem to be like the author is sitting in my house when the articles were written.
That goes for me too.
We get into periods in which issues are not discussed (and when they are, it's not pretty). Those are the times I get lulled into thinking everything is all right, that I was making a mountain out of a molehill and second guessing myself. Then we have that discussion and I feel torn to pieces.
I decided a really need to make a break here and set a Sept. 1 goal to do that. I'm trying to fast-track this before I lose my nerve or start the second guessing again.
In the meantime I have noticed an increase of calls or texts that are just saying 'how is your day?' 'just wanted to say hi', 'I miss you', 'i love you.', 'can't wait to go on vacation with my beautiful wife!'. That kind of stuff. Don't know if it has something to do with the letter or not.
It's called "hoovering." Believe what they DO, not what they SAY.
Hoovering...that is a good word!!! I went to the site and read it, I can see many things that relate to me, my H, and my M.
Believe what they do and not what they say is very good advice. When we had just split up this time around and he was trying to show me that he was willing to fight for our M and all that stuff, he would send me cards, flowers, call/text alot, and do things without being asked. All that stopped, now we are bak to the calls/texting nice things.
Sometimes I feel like this is a web that he is making. And there are probably others (men and women) just like him. They make a web with all the nice things that they say and do and then they have 'stuck' in it when they turn crappy on you. You struggle for release and about the time that you are free of the web, they start all the nice stuff again and you stop pulling out of the web. Then before you know it you are 'stuck' again.
Spybunny? You feel this way too?
I try hard to read up on all the websites and links that people post to me, some I can relate to, others I can not. I have printed a few out to show to the MC and to talk to him about. My only problem??? My H actually thinking, believing, saying, that he has some sort of a problem and then getting help for it.
I have caught him still on the net, looking at videos of porn. He thinks that it is no big deal but I say different. I have set my foot down that I will not tolerate it and that it needs to stop if he wants to be with me. I wonder sometimes if he will just get better at hiding it so I don't find it anymore.
Me-31 Him-28 D1-9 D2-6 Married 5-06 Seperated 12-07 He filed 1-08 Reconciled 4-08 D dropped 7-08 Bomb dropped about H's activities outside the marriage 4-21-09 Filed for D 4-28-09 Trying to make a go of it 6-09
Today has been a quiet day. That is always good but for some reason today I feel down about stuff.
We are suppose to be going on a weekend vacation with friends this coming weekend. I have been looking forward to this vacation for a long time. I am just worried that my H will act out like he has the last couple of weekends that we have spent together.
I don't want to wish it upon myself by thinking about it but I can't help it. I just want to have a great weekend, have fun, and maybe try and reconnect with my H again.
I have a MC appointment on Monday and I am going to talk to him about the stuff that had been happening and ask him what I can possibly do to not make a situation that my H starts any worse. Or makes it ruin the vacation.
Just down today. All by myself, no kids, no H, just me.
Me-31 Him-28 D1-9 D2-6 Married 5-06 Seperated 12-07 He filed 1-08 Reconciled 4-08 D dropped 7-08 Bomb dropped about H's activities outside the marriage 4-21-09 Filed for D 4-28-09 Trying to make a go of it 6-09
I keep getting yanked back into my H's web also. It happens at times like this- I start letting my guard down when things are calm. There have been no discussions about our M or issues this week, and it feels like things are OK, but I know they're not. Normally, I get the wind knocked out of me when one of these discussions crop up, it catches me off-guard, and I get caught in the web again. That’s why I’m fast-tracking the apartment and separation plans, I'm keeping last week’s discussion with H fresh in my mind and avoiding going into denial mode like I usually do. I’m not letting myself forget it, or the other pain from the last several years. I'm moving on to a more secure me.
I used an article from www.livestrong.com that helped me detach. If you go to the website and type "developing detachment" in the search window, the article will come up.
