Hello, I'm new here, and I'm not even sure if this will be the right place to post. But I"m giving it a try anyways I apologize for the lenght but I'm trying to esplain everything that happened and is going trough my mind. I have been married for 21 years and have two kids, 13 and 10. For 16 years my marriage was as perfect as any marriage can be. We had some ups and downs of course, but we're always able to sail trough, by talking, analysing or compromising someway. About 5 years ago we were going trough a very rough time in our lives, with huge financial problems, health problems and even family problems. Things were very difficult and I think that we kind of ended up hiding in our own shells trying to deal with what was happening individually instead of as a team. OUr relationship still seemed strong, but between all the part times we were doing to try and balance finances we hardly saw each other. Time together when it happened was a mix of being exausted and trying to get provide some quality time for the kids, we ended up forgetting couple time. I was feeling tired, frustrated and sometimes ressentful for all the time we couldn't be together. My h. was feeling depressed, and worrying that he couldn't provide for us the way he felt he should. He was working night shift and had a few par times. I was working days and had part times as well. It probably shouldn't have come as a surprise when I found out he was having an affair with a coworker, but it did. I thought that with all things being so hard on us, at least we still had our relationship. I was wrong. I found it out as it started. Well not exactly the affair itself. My husband had been away for 4 in a legitimate work related thing. But I noticed as soon as he came back that things were different. HE looked like he couldn't stand being home, and when he had no choice but to be home, he would either sit down watching tv or go to bed and sleep. He would go to work way before the right time to leave, and come back later. He would avoid talking and touching me even if it was by accident.His pager kept going off at odd times. It wasn't difficult to figure it out, but I was so naive that an affair didn't come to mind, I just thought that all that was going in our lives had finally caught up with him and that maybe we needed to talk. WHile we sat down talking about a week after everything had started, I had the shock of my life! HE didn't love me anymore, he wasn't even sure if he had ever loved me, our life together - all the wonderful things had been wipped from his memory - had not been a good one, and he wanted out.No there wasn't anyone else, but if the opportunity arised he would take it. I was left with no words -which is something quite difficult to happen with me - The last part seemed to much, and in two more days I had all the facts. Of course there was someone. I wasn't sure of what to do at that point, but I was sure that I didn't want my marriage to go just like that. We talked often and things always looked better on weekends when he wasn't working, but by midweek they were always back to , there's no way to fix this. Actually when right at first I suggested counseling his answer was an immediate no - and I knew that, he has quite a lot of trouble talking about himself and what's inside - and that we couldn't fix things, not because it was impossible but because he didn't want to. I was ready to quit when I realized that somethings didn't add up completely. He had told me he was just trying to save money for first and last month's rent in an appartment, but he was spending more and more money with us. Buying things for home that we needed but weren't really important and could certainly wait, taking us out, even bringing treats home. The way things were going he would be dying of old age before he had the money to move out! So I gave it a try and almost 4 months after the inicial discovery we were in counseling and starting small steps towards getting the whole mess starightned up. I"m afraid we didn't do all the sessions in counseling. He quit on the 4th, but we wouldn't have been able to continue anyways because there was no money. Still we were able to work it out form there. Or so I thought. Communication improved, we made time for ourselves as a couple, he was finally able to open up and answer some of my questions - although as time passed I noticed that some of the question I had from the beginning weren't that important anymore - and he really sheemed to want to make our marriage work. SOme of my friends reminded me of the "once a cheater... " thing, but I really felt at that time that we had been able to fix whatever needed fixing and that having been trough we were more vigilant about the small things that can create a problem, as well as the fact that it can happen and we need to work on a relationship to keep it alive. I guess I was naive again. For the next 3 1/2 years our marriage seemed stronger and improved. It almost felt like a permanent honeymoon. Even all the rest got better as well. He got a new job with better pay so he could let go of most of the part times. I got more hours on mine and got paid more as well. We were able to start paying of debts and still have some money left over. My parent's deaths were starting to become easier to deal with and my health problem had resolved in a good way. We got back to go camping again and enjoy being together. 2 years ago, he got another job. This one came with benefits and a better pay as well, although it was again night shift. We felt we could do it. Last summer, while my kids went on a long trip with the grandparents, I kind of felt there was something wrong. There was no special reason for this, after all we were having a great time togehter, he was spending all his time off work with me - as he had been doing ever since his affair - and before the affair -. Even to walk our dog he would ask me to go with him. He was caring and loving at home. Our sex life was great as it had always been, and he certainly wasn't leaving early to work or coming late. However there was something wrong.Right at that time I went to get a document from his hotmail - he had given me all his passwords after his affair and often asked me to go there to forward this or that - and found a message from some woman. I had seen messages from this person before. They were usually forwarded jokes and I had no problem with that. However this time even though not completely compromising, it seemed more personal. She was talking about something that had happened at work, and for him to pick up the phone because she needed a hug. Now I correspond with many people trough email and I do send hugs as a rule. Just before signing. But this got my alert defenses all up. I talked to him but got nothing. He rationalised that "would he have that sort of correspondence in a mail box that he knows I have access and even asks me to go there????? " I almost bought it. But suddenly there were no more messages from this person at all, not even jokes.Strange, they should still be coming. I confess I did something I'm not very proud of, but I snooped. And by snooping I learned that there was indeed something happening again with a coworker.Someone that worked nights with him. I was devastated. I really believed that it wasn't going to happen again. There was no special stress in our lives other than a small financial problem because we had to buy a new car, fix the roof and an emergency surgery in our dog, which left us in the red for a bit over a month. Still it was happening. This time it was completely different from the other. As I talked to him he immediatly confessed. He said he didn't know how he had gotten into the situation, but he certainly didn't want to abandon our marriage. That he loved me and couldn't figure out why he had messed up. That our relationship was under no special problems and that he felt really bad about it. For a moment I believed it. however by continuing snooping I learned that although things seemed to have stopped for a while, they were on again. The affair was happening only at work - they both worked in a hospital and as she so aptly stated to a friend, there is always time and plenty of beds available. They never met outside work even though she made it plain in some emails that she was willing to do so. By November he stayed home sick for almost a month. There was no contact either by phone or email. He had to go back to work in the begining of December for a week but then he had vacation time booked until the beginning of January, and again there was no communication with her during that time. I started hoping that maybe it was over. However, by February it was on again. I talked to him several times, I even showed him some of her emails to him. And always he apologized, indicated that it will end, but it kept going on and off. I do have proof that he tried to end it completely several times during this period of time, but again as she put to a friend she learned that it was easy to get it back again, she just had to keep passing by his office looking sad and crying and send him emails that made him feel guilty and things would start again. _ I am not judging her in here, just stating facts-. By May I found another email from her to him quite graphic in what they had done the previous night and I was ready to quit. I had one last talk to him and he was crying adnd telling me he wanted to grow old with me, but I was having trouble believing him by them - I think I had enough justification to doubt him. By the beginnng of June I was deciding in my head that maybe we should call it quits, when he called me from work one night asking for help to write a resignation letter. He again apologized and explained that although he wanted to end it he was having trouble doing so, and he felt the only way was to quit his job. I am not very sure of that. No matter where he works, there will always be women.. and then what? But I supported his decision. The affair is finally over. Our marriage seems on the mending again. He seems to be doing all possible and impossible to make up for it. But now I'm the one having trouble. I want my marriage. I know that I am able to forgive, but I really fear having to go trough this for the rest of our lives. AS a note, and this really doesn't make a difference or excuses him in any way but in both affairs it was the women that initiate it, which leds me to think that he will not start an affair, but is not able to refuse one if it's offered - which is as bad I think. I have proof of this, so I'm not going by what he says. I have the actually email where this one talks about the insecurity of being the one starting the affair and making it happen and that they still could be at the stage of just going out for coffee at break time and talk if she hadn't decided to kiss him and tell him what she wanted for them one night, and the phone conversation between him and the first one where they discuss the fact that it wouldn't have happened if she hadn't talked her roomate at the hotel to sleep somewhere else and make everything available for them. As I said, this doesn't make much of a difference in what happened, but it gives me some insight in how he has trouble to refuse what is offered. I want my marriage to work, and I was able to forgive the other time, but I am having difficulty doing so this time.ANd sometimes I feel guilty for this, when I see him trying so hard to make things work. Thanks for reading and again I apologize for being so long. Any insight will be appreciated. Have a great day nightshade
"Each and every one of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought and the gift of understanding. "
Yeah, it can work. I see a lot of similarities in our sitches already, just from your first post.
My partner also works nights (and in the health-care field). He has had several email/phone relationships with women that could easily have (but didn't) lead to affairs.
He had a brief EA/PA with a co-worker (they still work together--grrrrr).
Even though he ended (to my knowledge) the A after I found out, I think it was very hard on him to end it. Even though he clearly didn't care much for her, it was hard to cause her pain.
We have made some major progress in MC recently regarding my need to have some very clear boundaries about female friends and co-workers. I strongly believe that, like many men, my H has a real blind spot in this area.
First of all, he is naive about women and how extremely coniving and manipulative an OW (or potential OW) can be. (Sounds like you've got a real master-manipulator on your hands with that OW!)
Secondly, I may get myself in trouble here with some of the men, but how many guys have the skills or even the concept of saying "no" to sex when it's offered in that way--not to mention the emotional extortion that's going on at the same time? Men are socialized to get what they can, not to say no. Once married, that is dampened quite a bit, they may not be out looking, but may be at a total loss in a situation like your H is now in.
Thirdly, another vulnerability that I see is common with your H and mine is low self-esteem and ego.
Throw all of those together and they can be very vulnerable to a predatory OW! I'm not trying to say these guys are weak or inferior in some way--just have a real blind spot in this area. They are, basically, normal average guys, decent men who don't recognize the threat until it's too late to extracate themselves (apologies to all of the guys on this bb who think my statements are not very pc).
My partner and I are finally at the point where we can begin looking at those vulnerabilities and strengthening those areas. As our MC recently suggested, if these vulnerabilities have the potential to destroy our R, then they are a common enemy and deserve to be worked on as a team.
I'll be looking forward to seeing your progress! BTW, if your H does get another job, hopefully it will be one with medical benifits that include coverage for counseling!
Thank you so much talitsa for answering. It is true that my husband's self esteem seems to always be at the edge, ready to drop to nothing easily. And it is also true that the two affairs did boost his ego. He even confessed he felt flatered by their interest and it made him feel more important. I often think back trying to figure out if in some way I am giving him some insecurity or letting him feel less important. But I know I am not. On the contrary. ANother thing that seems to happen is that he has trouble dealing with problems even if they are small. The temptation of an affair is heightned by the lack of responsability of the whole thing. There are no bills to pay - in his case - no children's problems to deal with - at first, then he was starting to get requests to help out with her own kids(3), no need for accountability. I must confess that it sounds great, but it's definitely a situation that happens only at the beginning, if the affair continues it is bound to come with more and more responsabilities, requests and need for accountability.
Like you said about your h's A, mine didn't seem to care a great deal for this person, but still was having a lot of trouble ending it. I have about 12 emails from him to her, ending it. Followed by a period of not seing each other, followed by a restart. I am not able to go to MC right now. AGain due to all that happened our financial situation went to shambles. I don't work during the summer ( july and august) so I don't get paid. ANd with him quitting his job things got bad again. ANd maybe I ressent that a bit too. We had it all, so to speak, a good job, benefits, and for the second time he has to let it go because of an affair. Just before he quit we had quite a few expensed that were budgeted counting on his salary. We bought the trailer we had been dreaming about, paid the trailer park fees for the year, and spend quite some money to get the whole site the way we wanted it.We felt secure that money was coming and we had no problem with bills. Then this happened and all the plans went Working nights seems to have some sort of an effect as well- at least in his case, both affairs happened when he was working nigh shift, and there were never problems when he was working straight days. I wonder, there is some time with nothing to do and it's easy to try to avoid boredoom by going for longer coffee breaks and talk with people in the same circumstances. THe inability to refuse something like that when it's offered is certainly something that I can see in both cases. but no matter where he's working or what he's doing that is always a possibility. Having someone showing that she's available for him, or even initiating something, and I guess that's what's really worrying me here. We've also been talking about boundaries, and the fact that things are easy to start but them become difficult to end. We also talked about the cultural differences. We came from Europe and where we came from, different things seem to be accepted in different ways. Hugging, touching, even kissing is done most times without ulterior motives, talking about more intimate things doesn't come out as an invitation, just a talk. I think that my h has trouble understanding that often here those things are taken as a come on. So he ends up giving signals that are taken in a different way.
In his case I also can find - and this is not new -a certain inability to feel empathy. I know he reall his doing all to make things better, but I can see that sometimes he finds that there was no reason for all this big thing. He has trouble putting himself in my shoes and feel - or even imagine - what I felt throughout both affairs, so if he can't feel it himself he can't really understand it fully. He always showed some lack of empaty, but because there were no problems, it didn't make much of a difference other than showing itself and "telling" me that that was a trait in his personality.
He is now working again. Days. He tells me he's not going to accept any night jobs again, and I wonder if that will help. He got his first paycheque last week and once again we're worse off financially because in his hurry to start working fast he had to take the first thing that came. There was no need for this. ANd to answer your question, no this job doesn't come with benefits and counseling certainly is out of question now. We have bills pilling up that need to be payed and weren't in these two months.
I am having trouble believing in committment from his part - when with his first affair that created no problem at all. I am just worried about a pattern and I'm not sure I'd be able to go trough this again and again. My own self esteem took a big dive and I'm having trouble getting it back. I know none of this was my fault, and I know that i didn't do anything wrong but still I feel down. I don't want to take my husband or my marriage for granted but I need to feel some security. I know that nothing in life comes with guaranties, but thinking that I might have to go trough this again is really to stressfull. As for my H, there is some part of him that is struggling with all of this. ANd even though I can undersand it, I also believe that it's kind of selfish. He just wants it to go away. To just keep forward as it never happened. He tries to answer me and be open to talk about what happened and what I think we need to work on, but it's a straing for him because he only wants to put it all out of his bead. But it did happen and we can't really pretend it didn't.Maybe I am wrong but to work something out, we need to figure out what is causing it in the first place, and he seems to have no clue. Neither does he show the desire to look deeper and try to figure out why.In a way it seems to be painful to him to realise that he has shortcomings, that he makes mistakes because that works negatively in his ego. SO he tries to avoid thinking about it.
You talked about your H having email and phone conversations with other women, but that they didn't turn into affairs. In my case I"m actually the one that used the computer for communication more. I don't - nor didn't - have any relationships over the computer or phone and I don't go to chats. But I do have groups of friends, with whom I correspond regularly. My H on the other hand uses the computer more to play games or look for information.
ANyway, thanks again for your answer and i hope things continue to improve in your situation. I hope it happens to me too, but for now I just think that nothing seems real. I'm not very demanding. But I really need to believe that my happiness is as important to him as his own. That he cares enough to remember me when I'm not present and is thinking about not hurting me when he deals with other people. I would like to believe that he understands how negative those two experiences were for me, and would want to avoid doint it again because he does not want me to feel like that again and not because of any other reason. I want to believe that he listens when we talk about boundaries and is ready to learn how to stop something like this before it happens again. I guess I would like a "happy ever after". ANd this doesn't mean that I can't understand that there are always problems, just that I feel the need to smile and be cheerful and I haven't been able to feel like that much lately. Many hugs to you nightshade
"Each and every one of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought and the gift of understanding. "
you are a very strong woman...one a is enough for me..and that one I still don't even know if was a pa as h doesn't admit to anything more than an ea...I know that for me if if there were ever another ow or heck a re-emergance of their so called "friendship, I'd check out as fast as I could.
lost love, I don't think I'm strong. But I do have quite many years behind of a wonderful marriage. I don't think love just disappears one fine day. I do believe that there are times were some people are more vulnerable to outside experiences, and those times as alitsa said might have a lot to do with low self esteem, depression and stuff like that.
This doesn't excuse any of what happened, but darn it! I am not going to let this take away all we have behind! And I am not going to offer my husband on a silver platter for another woman.
Regardless, I did think about quiting quite often, specially this time. I guess my capacity for understanding was stretched to the limit. And as you can see from my posts I'm still not completely sure this will work. But if it doesn't I will call quits when I am ready and not when and affair is happening.it will be on my terms, not anybody else's.
As for emotional or physical affair, I have to be honest. An emotional affair scares me as much as a physical one if not even more. It it the emotional link that hurts me. Sex... well, you can have sex without love,, you can even enjoy it. You don't have to feel any need to stay with that person afterwards, and other than the obvious health problems that can be quite serious, it doesn't have to mean much. But once you start forming an emotional bond, then that scares me. Because it just goes beyond simple sex into more complex feelings.
The other thing that worried me about this second affair was the lenght of time it went for. True it was on and off trough all that time, but it went for almost a year. After such a long time, habit also becomes part of the equation I think. You get used to spend time with that person, regardles of your feelings for her, and it becomes more and more difficult to break it. Time spent with the person becomes part of the routine of your life.
To be honest, by the end of May I was calling some friends back home and figuring out cost of living back home. And that tells a lot. I was ready to just go. I have no other famlily in here, all my familiy is back home and I'm here only because of my husband. I left a great job and a family that loved me, just to be here with him - true I did postpone my wedding twice and cancelled it altogether once, because I really didn't want to leave everything, but I ended up doing it.
For now, I'm staying and as comfortable with my decision as possible. If that changes or if there is another affair then I will have to rethink all my options and I might let it go. It was hard enough and I don't feel any masochistic need to be consistently hurt.
Take care and I hope that everything goes great with your relationship.
Relationships are such complex things aren't they? Letting someone have the power to hurt us this much is what takes courage, and we do it without even thinking of it, I suppose human beings are way braver than what they look hugs
nightshade
"Each and every one of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought and the gift of understanding. "
I totally empathize with your plea. To my knowledge, my H has only cheated on me once, but he is having a very tough time letting go of his OW, even when the PA is over. And it is only normal that you find yourself unable to trust in his commitment.
I have a suggestion to make, though, before you decide in a course to take. Have you done any research into why and how EAs happen? You may find that there are patterns in your marriage (if you want to continue it or any R for the future) that you want to change. I found quite useful a few books: "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass was the best, followed by "The Monogamy Myth" by Peggy Vaughn. And if you want to understand how much of an addiction an affair can be, read "Surviving an Affair" by Willard Harley and Jennifer Chalmers.
And vent here with us. That is why we are all here, to help ourselves by helping each other
So, yes I believe you two can heal and learn. But I also believe that there are times in which we have to bail out and learn to live again. And only you can know where you are in that respect.
LOL
"You don't throw a whole life away just 'cause it's banged up a little"
Tom Smith in "Seabiscuit"
Hello optimist, I like your name. Me too I'm a "glass half full" kind of person I have been trough everything in our marriage in search for any patterns that could be creating problems or week links. What I found the first time was some loss of communication and time together as a couple due to all the time we were working. But that was fixed at that time. We both agreed that it was important to keep communication open and to remember time for ourselves. No kids just us. We discussed the fact that sometimes being so busy we tended to forget the small things. A note tucked in his pocket, a message left in my nightable, small things like that. And we decided we were going to do our best not to forget them. We have remembered. I read a few books, including both the "monogamy myth" and "surving the affair" and found them both interesting and filled with things that made sense. But I 've never read " Not just friends" , I will look for it next.
As for time to stay or let go, I agree with you. There is a time for each of those solutions. I feel the dividing line is when you feel you aren't comfortable with your choice anymore. Threshold point is different with everyone but I believe there is a point where it happens. I'm glad I didn't reach it either, although sometimes I feel I'm getting closer. VEnting here feels good. Due to the fact that I have no family in here - other than my H's family, and better not go in there - I tend to let everything inside. I do have some friends, but with all the problems in the last few years, and specially all the jobs, I kind of lost contact with some. Other although sympatetic had no idea of what I was going trough, and yet others criticized me for wanted to stay in this marriage, so yes... it is good to be able to vent here, where people understand were I'm coming from and have been through similar situations. Big hug nightsahde
"Each and every one of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought and the gift of understanding. "
Wow, Night, we could be twins! I also left my home and family behind and travelled thousands of km to be with my H. In any case I'm very close to my family via web and phone but except in the hideous first 2 weeks I have not found them much help. Do not take me wrong, they love me and root for me: but that is the problem. They want the fastest way out, not necessarily the one that is the best in the long run . But it is wonderful to know you will always be loved regardless of what you do, think or turn into!
And lucky me, I have a lot more ties to Texas than you to Canada, even if it is only a great job and lots of wonderful friends that have acted as a surrogate family. I would not leave even if we divorce. I have built a life for my D and myself here and I like it
I agree with you in the EA vs PA issue: I fear more the EA. My H and his OW had sex much less often than we two did (and that is info the OW did not know she was giving me while she tried to freak me out), but their A lasted on and off 5 years and I do not know how to achieve NC.
Quote: Relationships are such complex things aren't they? Letting someone have the power to hurt us this much is what takes courage, and we do it without even thinking of it, I suppose human beings are way braver than what they look
Hear, hear, hear.
And yes, you are in the right place!
"You don't throw a whole life away just 'cause it's banged up a little"
Tom Smith in "Seabiscuit"
Yes, we could be twins I also am in touch with my family and friends back home but I really didn't want to get them all worried over there. My mom knows because there is nothing you can hide from her of course and my best friends know as well. However, nevere being in the same situation gives them a different insight. As you say they do care for me and want me to be happy, but they're viewing the whole thing from the outside, with no clue to what it's really like. Still they made me feel better just by listening to me at times. I also have a great friend in here, that has been the whole source of support troughout this year. When the other affair was happening I had the support of H's aunt which made me feel great and welcomed to the family after all the years we've been married. But I realized that after the crisis was over, she was blaming H for everythig and then some, even when it wasn't his fault. This bias made me not confide in her this time.
As for moving back I would simply because I am here only because of H. I enjoy my life here, but I lost a lot when I came here. I did postpone my wedding because I didn't really want to come here. I had a better financial situation there, a better job and of course the bonus of having my family with me. The only thing that would make me reconsider would be if the kids didn't like it there, but they actually love it there, so I don't think I would stay if things were defenitely over.
I've been quiet because I'm trying to read all the posts and get an idea of this forum. I'm so happy to see all the support and encouragement. ANd of course I see many similar situations. I think in a few days I will be able to start posting in other treads as well
Meanwhile I'm concentrating in what my goals are and how do I intend to achieve them. FOr H everything is fine. He was able to end the affair, our marriage is still alive and that's all there is to it. FO rme, although I agree that we're on the right track, some things are still not working fine. Yes, he is going out of his way to make things better, yes he's allowing me some things that he wouldn't enjoy normally - like me wanting to know where he is more often, asking about the time he's finished at work, things like that. But ...it's like his feelings for me are only lukewarm. I asked him about that a few weeks ago and he asked me in turn if that wasn't the way people feel after being together for as long as we have.This was certainly not the answer I wanted or needed. I still feel the same way for my husband as I felt many many years ago, yes, maybe my feelings are a bit more settled but they still have the same intensity. Then he contradicted himself by saying that if I meant if his love for me was strong, then the answer was yes, they were. But he is still not exactly the man I fell in love and loved for so many years. Ever since his first affair he changed a bit. He became harsher less patient. This was not only with me, even at work they noticed. He used to work with people that had emotional or physical problems because he used to be so good at it, and then suddenly he wasn't anymore, he was impatient and ready to critizice. That's what seems to be happening in here. He is quick to criticize and very slow to praise - if at all. Sometimes it feels that if I'm perfect and our life had no problems, then everything is fine. But if I make mistakes, or life throws us a curve then he gets grumpy and seems ready to blame me. HE doesn't but it looks like. The problem is that I am not perfect. Nobody is, so this seems like a no solution thing. ALso he seems to have adapted two different sets of standarts, one for me, one for him - or maybe he was always like that but never became this apparent. For example, if we both do the same mistake, he will laugh his one off. "oops.... " "It was a mistake.. it happens..." "no big deal, it can be fixed." but if I do the exact same mistake... well then that's a big problem.." you had to make a mistake!" "YOu always mess up!" " this is too much!!!!" . We've talked about this a few times. SOmetimes he says he realizes he does that, and tried to joke it off by saying "If I don't take this things on you who am I going to take them on?" or "You know I don't really mean it, it's my impulsive side acting up", other times he doesn't agree that he's used two different standarts. So you see, although we're together and things are going forward, there are still quite a few things that need to be worked on. ON my side as well. I sometimes react with sarcarsm when I'm feeling hurt, I need to control that. In any case as long as I see that there is progress being made, I'll be fine. Hope you're having a great day hugs nightshade
"Each and every one of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought and the gift of understanding. "
