I think the one thing I didn't take into account is I think you mentioned she filed first with an attack. I would say in that case your back is up against a wall at that point.
Yeah, even when I suspected infidelity - I offered a mutual divorce/etc. prior to even going the P.I. route. I tried reconciliation, counseling, etc. and she refused to admit the A in counseling.
She filed on me, and I just had to "go through the motions" hiring a P.I. because I knew I'd catch her. Wouldn't have even done that if she'd filed a "no fault" but she tried to hit me with a "fault" divorce accusing me of being "mentally and physically cruel" so I had no choice.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
DCBHM, can you have the kids over to your house? Are HIS kids inviting them over to play? Thats icky.
His nephew/kids of one of the enablers.
Originally Posted By: bluerain
I dont think that in the event of a reconciliation, you would be out of line at all requesting that she goes to therapy. But its not unusual for BPD people to stop therapy, or medication when they start to feel better (Im cured!). They have to want to get better, for themselves, their kids, whatever, it has to be their idea. I have noticed some almost sociopathic tendencies in some BP people, its about them, and what makes them feel good right now. Whats the big deal? Im not happy, and thats what matters.
It has almost been like that verbatim. When I asked about working on the M "I don't wanna be unhappy!" Well you kind of have to work at it...
Originally Posted By: bluerain
I hope that you arent making a mistake by "painting her black" in court. Sometimes the D proceedings can be a chance for you to show each other that you have changed. Im not saying that will happen in your case, or that she has changed at all, but hasnt your M been hurt enough? I know that you have all this documentation, but is it necessarily wise to use it right off the bat? Maybe this is a chance to have your M euthanized rather than beaten to death. Im not even necessarily making a suggestion by saying this, mostly just thinking out loud.
I'm going so extreme because they came out like that at first, and I'm just setting the tone to let them know I actually have a bite to go along with my bark.
Now I have to follow up with today's events...
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
Got D1 this morning, short 5 minute in/out thing. They were being nice/polite but I wasn't in the mood for it this morning, I just smiled and got ready to leave.
Same routine of the Mall/Park and then back home - and guess who was parked at the neighbor's house...
So I did something emotional today. I prepared an email to mutual friends/W's family/coworkers/etc. - about 30+ recipients.
Originally Posted By: nuke
I have fought with the decision to expose the truth behind the divorce. I know I've been vilified and made out to be a monster during this process based on the little bit that I have heard.
I cannot control what W chooses to do with her life, but I can no longer enable it by de facto condonation by keeping the secret that has been tearing our family apart.
W has been having an affair with our next door neighbor OM. I love her. I want to save our marriage and keep our family together. Please encourage her to do the right thing, end this relationship and all contact with OM and recommit to our marriage.
I am including some (not all) of the evidence gathered via private investigator. This has already been provided to W's attorney and is being used as evidence for an adultery fault ground. W's immediate family has refused to involve themselves in taking a stand even though they are aware of the truth.
Private Investigator Report
I included a copy of the P.I. report and snapshots from the P.I. video showing that it was indeed W.
We are two months into the game, and I've been doing a good job GAL/etc. and figured it was time to make a change since the A seemed like it was well-in-hand. I had asked W on a prior occasion to please stay away from next door and to show some respect for our M. Followed some advice and language from [censored] on exposing infidelity.
Then I hit send.
W/MIL showed up at my house to pick up D1, and I told W in front of MIL that I had sent 30 copies of the PI report and pictures to friends/family. *cue look of horror* And get this:
BOTH W/MIL started making excuses that she was only over there to "get her car fixed" which is actually reasonably plausible but completely ridiculous considering the circumstances.
Then came the anger reaction "How about we tell your grandmother what you did!" I told her to knock herself out. I don't think she'll get the reaction she expects.
But I did do all of my talking in an even voice, calm, collected, and made sure to tell her the reason I did it is because I care about my M. Told her I didn't want to hurt her, but I was no longer going to condone her A by keeping her secret.
MIL just continued her harping/etc. saying that W had never done anything that I was the one who had done everything wrong, etc. so I just shook my head as they walked out the door.
Awaiting the counter-move.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
Congratulations on taking a stand for the truth. I have found that it is very disarming to the one doing wrong. They do know who they are. W may have MIL believing her story, but few others will stand by it.
Followed it up with a "Plan B" (no contact) letter as recommended by the Harley guy.
Originally Posted By: PLAN B
Dear W,
It is with a sense of resignation that I'm writing this to you. During the first period of our separation I have done a lot of soul-searching, and I have been looking not only to you but to my own part in leading us to where we are.
First of all - I fully accept 50% of the responsibility for our marriage. I made some mistakes in our relationship, and I have apologized and been honest to you about them. I also recognize that you may feel as though I was not there when you needed me. Last year I spent a lot of time working, going to school, helping your mother, and that didn't leave a whole lot of time for us to spend together. I see that we were lacking in a lot of emotional support for each other, and although I don't agree how you chose to find that support - I am willing to understand and accept that I could have done more to make you feel appreciated and to be there more when your father passed.
Second, I want to make clear one final time that I am dedicated to doing whatever it takes to help make our relationship stronger, more fulfilling, and ultimately better for the children. I am willing to work together in counseling, and whatever else it takes to help you find where you need to be emotionally. Realistically, this simply is not going to be a possible outcome as long as your affair is ongoing.
To that end I am going to have to take some steps for myself. I hold out hope and faith that you will find a reason - even D1's future - to recognize that we should at least do everything we can do in order to build a stronger relationship with each other so that she knows how hard we work together for her. But each time you throw your affair in my face by parking next door while we are still married, every time you lie to my face, and each time you attack me rather than being honest with me - I lose respect for you. I have lost the trust I had in you. Slowly but surely, I'm finding that I'm losing the love I have for you.
Step 1: I have respect for myself - and I will no longer condone or accept your affair, meaning I will no longer support it by keeping it a secret. I have let 30-40 people know already, not to hurt you, but because affairs thrive in secrecy. The deceit, lying, and selfishness inherent in an affair protects the fantasy. If your "relationship" is meant to be and is a proper thing for you to be doing you should be shouting it from the rooftops instead of attempting to blame me for your indiscretions and lying to my face about it.
Step 2: I have to protect what feelings I have for you at this point. I don't want to hate you, and I don't want us to get to a point where our relationship, even as friends, is not salvageable. To that end - I'm going to continue limiting our contact via text message during the week to be just about D1. I want you to let me know if there is anything I need to know about in terms of emergencies, special plans, etc. but it hurts me emotionally to deal with you too often.
Step 3: I'm going to continue working on myself. I want to be the best father I can be for the kids, and I'm going to work on being independent. I have no desire for a relationship with anyone else at the moment. I know I'm a good person when I take the sum of my life - but it never hurts to be a better person.
Lastly... if you choose to be honest with me and enter into counseling, I believe that would be a big step in repairing our relationship. Whatever the outcome of the counseling, and whether or not we remain married, I know that I require honesty in my friends. As soon as you are willing to completely end your affair - I am willing to discuss the possibility of a future between us.
I love you W. Not the fantasy pretend "ooh I'm in love!" feelings you get at the beginning of a relationship. But the love that I have that helps me endure during times such as these. True love. Unconditional. Sacrificial.
For better or worse.
Your husband, H
Mentally ill or not... I keep trying for some reason.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
That's a helluva letter, DC. I'm really glad you sent it, and I pray for you both that it will be effective and snap her out of her selfish funk and she will get herself the help she obviously needs.
If not, I do certainly understand that you need to protect yourself, and your kids.
I think that was a good letter, it all seemed to be written with an undertone of love, but I wouldnt be surprised if she balks at it, or just tries to ignore it. Has she responded yet?
I guess I gave the wrong finger to the wrong man...
I think that was a good letter, it all seemed to be written with an undertone of love, but I wouldnt be surprised if she balks at it, or just tries to ignore it. Has she responded yet?
Not that I'm aware of. She read it, but I haven't gotten any reply. (She has not replied to any emails since January).
I have heard through mutual acquaintances her initial reaction was to ask for copies of the initial email so she can "get a restraining order" which I thought was amusing. She isn't aware of what it says - and I guess seems to assume it'll be a smoking gun showing I'm being unreasonable or irrational.
I recorded my confrontation with MIL/W so if they attempt to say I made any threats, etc. I have it recorded so I'm not concerned if I get a chance to prove it in court.
Basically it is the "mushroom cloud" reaction I've read about, and since I believe BPD is a factor I'm sure she has done some mental gymnastics to truly believe what she's saying. Of course... her look of horror told the entire story. If she has nothing to hide - why is she so concerned about people reading the P.I. report?
I believe they are hoping desperately to gain some sort of control over me, or at least the feeling of control, because I'm not responding according to "plan" and they cannot handle that. Based on "Splitting" I'm sure I've been split pitch-black at the moment, but they are desperately hoping to get something on me at this point.
So - I did send my attorneys copies of everything as well as my thought-process. This also serves as my counter-distortion campaign, and I'm sure even those who have heard how I'm "horrible" or whatever are going to consider. Some will probably support her no matter what, some won't be wanting to get in the middle, and others will support my efforts or at least hinder hers.
The more I try to appeal to reason - the more fanatical and "crazy" she starts to act. Yesterday after talking with them I do get a "numb" feeling where I'm trying to sort out reality - because their reality seems far separated from mine.
They seem "convinced" that what they want will be granted in the end - but ultimately when they get to the courtroom they seem lost and confused. Like at the first hearing they were wondering exactly what happened when they walked out without anything.
Read an interesting article - How personality disorders drive family court litigation. Worth a look if anyone is interested - the author is the guy who wrote Splitting. Seems familiar.
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
D1 seemed sick this morning. She had a rash and was crying a lot. Ran into W for a moment, just passing by. Just told her D1 had a rash and she replied that she'd have the doctor look at it. Polite enough, and she didn't give me an evil look or anything.
My aunt made me laugh, was talking to her about the R.O. threat and she thought it would be amusing if W tried going in front of the judge entering the evidence against herself in order to try and make me "stop spreading it." Basically she'd be setting herself up prior to the actually important hearing by having all that evidence coming out and the judge forming that initial opinion of her.
Based on my initial understanding, a person can only restrain you from contacting them and not other people. And it would be a stretch to claim what I sent had intent to annoy/harass/intimidate.
Although I'm sure it must feel that way to W at first. The fantasy isn't quite as fun when exposed to daylight.
Any pointers on dealing with exposure fallout?
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
