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Sara,

I have yet to see a recovery work where the wayward spouse was still in regular contact with their affair partner. I'd be a fool to encourage him to do anything BUT insist upon no contact.

I also ask people what THEIR boundaries are, as I think they are very personal and we're in no position to decide FOR them what they should be. He has said that no contact was a dealbreaker for him, and I tend to agree.

I haven't said she's still having an affair. I've said that her attitude toward no-contact and transparency indicates to me that she is EITHER still involved with this man, or -- and I said this was more likely -- she WANTS to be able to be.

And I stand by that.

Puppy

Hey Deep,

Yes we do have quite a bit in common. My W has not tried to commit suicide but has said things like "I should probably just go and die" etc.

Pretty much everyone is saying the same thing on here, i.e. that OM has to go ... permanently and for all time. Puppy is right about your W keeping in contact with him so she can reignite the affair again if, heaven forbid it, your marriage fails again. If OM weren't a client of hers she would have found another excuse to stay in contact with him - seriously.



This hypocrisy and double standard looks extremely familiar and makes me want to throw.

Look at what I have highlighted in the above quote Deep. You were compelled by your lying, cheating adulterous wife to end all contact with (in her eyes) a potential adultery partner and you did.

Now, does your wife have any trust issues with you. Has your behaviour since you ceased all contact with this woman given your wife any reason not to trust you? Does your wife ever raise any concerns with you that she doesn't trust you?

I haven't read anywhere in your posts that your own wife doesn't trust you.

Funny that, wouldn't you say?

Get some couples counseling. She doesn't understand how badly it hurts you because she has never gone through it before. She has to be able to see that.

Then you need to learn how to forgive. REALLY forgive. I have a hard time doing that sometimes but it's a point we all need to get to if we want our M to continue.

Have you read "Surviving the Affair?" Maybe she needs to read it too.

Hey everyone, thanks so much for your replies. I really, really appreciate them.

God, this is bringing back so many bad memories of what it was like the first 6 months post A ... and I really thought I was in a better place, just disturbed at a gnawing uneasiness that I put down to jealousy / detachment.

DanceQueen, can I ask you a question? During the times when you and H were trying to work things out, and as you said, trusting in your love to carry it thru, would you say you were back in love with H, re-connected with him, and had the best intentions? You were disgusted with OM (and this is hitting a red flag becuase it is exactly what W is saying), in what way did his presence cause a D eventually?

Sara, thanks for all your suggestions. To make it clear, I WANT my marriage. I want the happy family I had before the nightmares started. That is my first priority.

GH: I definitely agree that at least in the initial stages, W would have found any excuse to stay in touch with OM. My (stupid?) thought is that we have re-connected and that has changed, it's just for work now. Since discovery, there are 2 things that stand out after reading the replies here.

1) About 4 months after A - so when W is still in love with OM and a passive/agressive sitch at home - a text came in while she was in the bathroom. I looked and it was OM. This was after the agreement to cut all contact except work related. Blast me if you want but I could not help but open the text. It was anything but work related. It was obviously a "middle" text from the phrasing, not a stray opening text, like the middle part of a text conversation / exchange. It said something like "hey darling, yeah I was busy checking in, catching my flight to <city> and sitting in the lounge. Missing you and see you soon." I left out the emoticons. I went nuts. I called his home and left a message for OMW that her H was having an A with my wife and to call me back. W tried to stop me but she I was too angry to listen. She claimed she did not know what he was doing, tha she did not text him and it must be a mistake. She sent off a text to him asking him to stop texting her. He then replied saying: "what text? I did not text you. Sorry must have made a mistake".

Some days after that, he apparently called her and told her they agreed to leave their families out of it. I know because I intended to meet OMW. She told me to leave things be, and like I mentioned in a previous post, that if I chose to tell OMW, and they get D, plus she gets shamed and fired at work if OMW complains - I would regret it. I admit what I did was weak, but I backed off. I of course burned inside the one phrase particularly "If he is free of his M, and angry at you, and comes after us, I'm telling you you'll regret it". Ok, I feel sick admitting how weak I was, but I backed off.

2) Every now and then, I would ask if she has talked to or met OM. Mostly she'll say no, until more probing pisses her off and she'll flare and say "Yes, he is my client, of course I'll have to talk to him at times. What? Do you expect me to report to you EVERY time he calls and what we talk about for work?" With the implication that this was so childish and impractical. But she'll try to reassure me that they hardly talk, that he has been decent and does not call unless necessary, and they only talk work.

At a CORE session, she even mentioned how the fact that I've laid off and don't question her any more made her feel much better and less stressed out and trusted. I did that for me ... I would have gone nuts if I obssessed about them talking / meeting.

I think I know what I have to do. It's simply how I deal with the risks and consequences ...

G'day Deep,

GH31 here again.

I am going to follow your situation closely and lend my support. I won't give you any advice as to what to do because whilst I'm still married to my wife and living under the same roof - I am very, very far from being a success story.

I was struck by some other things you had written in your thread as I see many parallels with my own situation. I feel for you I really do because I know exactly why you don't trust your wife. During the course of my wife's affair I have learned to trust my gut instincts. I am not a paranoid person by nature and my gut has turned out to be right 100% of the time.



She is not trying hard enough. Or at least she is not putting her efforts into where they would matter most i.e. putting you at at ease, showing that she is worthy of being trusted.

Do you disagree?

Is she giving you what you need in order to experience trust?

We both know the answer to that. What sane human being would trust someone whose actions have been dishonest and hypocritical and continue to remain so? She is avoiding doing what's hard for her own selfish reasons.



Forget about trying to silence that little voice.

It will reappear and reappear and reappear and reappear and try all manner of ways to communicate with you until it is blatantly screaming at you. That's why you have that persistent feeling of unease.

You want to get a paternity test done because your wife has f***ed another man whilst being married to you and still lies to you about it, continues to communicate with said man, and continues to withhold information from you etc ... but at the same time is acting loving, trying to show you she loves you so that you just shut up and forget about it.

There is a reason why you want a paternity test done and in my mind it's a very valid one.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck mate.

Well said, GH.

Hi Deep,

I find it amazing at what the LBH's say on some of the posts to you. Maybe it's just me and I'm the bad guy here.....and that is certainly not my intent. I’m not sure why some things in this post jumped out at me, but something seemed a bit “off” when I read it. It was very interesting and I went back and read it about three times. I suppose I won’t make any friends by pointing these things out and my point is not to stir up more pain than you already have. I don’t want you to think I deliberately picked your posts apart to find things to say about it, but in trying to decipher it for myself; I cut and pasted some “issues” that seem to stand out to me.

I started out keeping all the quotes in the order but I may not have succeeded in doing that. However, I simply want you to try to see this from a different POV. In putting some things together, you may see that it looks a little different…and maybe some of the other LBH's will also. I wasn’t intentionally trying to take it out of context, but wanted you to see what I did.

First some things about your wife that doesn’t look so good (besides the lies, the affair, and of course the fact she’s still working with OM):

Based on your information, your wife seems a bit greedy……financially, or maybe I should just say she wasn’t “satisfied”, financially. Do you think she was attracted to OM b/c of his money or b/c of his attention to her and made her feel special in her profession? It was probably some of both. You “seem” proud of her but how did it make you feel for her to reach financial recognition when she had complained about your lack of financial provision? You sounded as if you handled that very well.



When I first read this, I thought, “Yeah, me too, b/c what two adult people are going to “pet” and not have sex? (If “pet” still means what it used to mean!) Especially the man who has a sick wife and is looking for outside sex from an admiring female emotionally struck on him!


An emotional blackmail & threat.


An emotional empty promise to get you off her back.


Emotional blackmail


Emotional Blackmail


THIS IS VERY, VERY BAD!



Therefore, she has you over an emotional barrel. This may sound cruel and maybe not pertinent, but how did you discover she took an OD? Were you with her at the time of the OD or did somebody call you?



But, I thought you said that “both” of you were ready to walk. If she woke up b/c you were going to walk…then she tried to OD… and now you are afraid to confront. It really does seem twisted, doesn’t it?


How do you answer? You tell her it’s not good enough and that you cannot live in a lie the rest of your life and that certain things have to be cleared and the truth must be brought forward. She is very selfish, here, in my opinion. She’d rather live in deceit than admit the truth to what she did. It is not fair to you, the MR, the kids, the future, or even her.


This must be part of her self-deceit and/or living a lie.


Do you think she might be that great of an actress? Could she string you along in order to keep A with OM? But, you said both of you were ready to walk out right before you went to Retrouvaille, so what would be her purpose in living a “lie”? Would she do that just for the kids?

Now for the part that might not make you look so good:

I wonder if there is a larger ego problem than you realize. You say you are attractive & fit and look younger than your age. You like the fact your W fits the same description. Maybe you just tell the facts as they are, but maybe all this is part of the “perfect package” to you…or maybe not. You saw your W as being the sweet girl next door who changes “after” she has A with OM. Spoils the perfect package. Your male ego is crushed b/c of her feelings, protectiveness and her choices of OM over you in the stitch. She would not do what you wanted and still will not do what is right. That is understandable, but does the source go deeper than “doing what is right”?










You seem to be afraid to confront her and force the truth.


And, she knows she has you scared. She has you right where she wants you. Emotional Blackmail.

Then the entire paragraph telling how her OM pretended to be a social friend while all the time making moves on your wife was evident of your pain and how your male ego suffered. Again, that is understandable and I’m not finding “fault”, but pointing some issues out.


Wow, sharp blow to the self-esteem!


It hurt you that she use the word “love” him but “cared” for you. However, you turned right around and used the term that she “cares” for the kids. Just thought that was....well, that you didn't notice the "word play" when you applied it.

Then the part about your OW comes out: (Yes, I said “your” OW)

Referring to OW:
Sexual chemistry? Of course! At first you wanted to look as clean as Spic & Span, but by the end of your posts, I think more was coming out about how you were thinking of OW.

Referring to OW:
Hooked up again for how long?

Referring to OW:
Can you see that this is almost as unbelievable as your W and OM “petting” and not having sex? Are you saying you two spent the evening together and there was no sex? (I'm not saying you "did" but trying to get you to see how unbelievable this could be!

Must have been some juicy emails if she accused you of hypocrisy.


“Made” you? How?


No kidding? Are you saying that you “buy” the idea that your what your friend did was a coincidence?? Come on, man! You really aren’t that naïve! You “do” remember this statement, right?
Referring to OW:


Referring to OW:

But I bet your W thought differently! I know what "I" would have thought if it had been my H and he had spent the evening with OW on a trip that was just a coincidence and then I found a bunch of email from OW talking about wanting to have an affair! Get real, man! Are you that blind? Are all the LBH's here on this board that blind that they can take this W to the slaughter house but they can't see what YOU were doing? Oh, I am sure it will be "justified" since your wife was a THE WW!!


Well, if she can “make” you open your emails, I guess she can “make” you cut off all contact. You poor little thing.

“
OKAY, LBH's THERE IT IS RIGHT THERE IN BLACK & WHITE. READ IT FOR YOURSELVES! Hummmmm, what can I say? But, you don’t think it was an EA……right? At any rate, we see who wears the pants in the family! Sure glad W is keeping tabs on your communication since you still wonder “what if.”
You know, I try real hard to be fair and unbiased on this board, but sometimes........I could really, really get ugly and the mood is about to hit me! It's okay for you to sneak around with emails, and talking to OW.....but by God your W better not keep any secrets!

Huh? Which part of the hell are you referring to? The part about W’s EA or you wondering “what if” about your friend?


Ohhh, “that” hell.


You think?


Oooooo

Referring to OW:

(Heavy sigh) You "think" there was a possibility you could have been stupid, huh?


Well, yeah, after she “made” you open them!


So, you are "still" thinking about "what if" with your "friend" or just how did you mean that?


I think this is a lot of what is really eating away at you, Deep:



I think there may be a difference in “Pride” and self-respect. Self-respect or self-esteem is good and it’s necessary. Pride, in the sense of being arrogant is not good and it has no place in a MR. I don’t think many M’s will last for years down the road if there is pride. We have to swallow our pride in order to forgive the one who hurt us. You felt hoodwinked by this A your W had with this old, fat, man—who you could have put to shame in the “looks” & sexual department. What on earth would a beautiful, young, sexy, professional woman, such as your W, want with a man like him? How could she choose that man over you? It had to have been his money! At least that seems to be the only logical answer you could come up with, right?


Something about this just doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t “fit”. First of all, she is not that “young, sweet girl next door any longer. Maybe the two of you “did” go 7 years of courtship without sex, but didn’t you say the two of you lived together outside of wedlock? And, now you say she is conservative at heart? What do you mean she can’t live with what she’s done? People who chose to have A’s don’t get off that easily by saying they “can’t live with what they’ve done”. All adults have to live with their sins! (Notice I did not say “mistakes”.) I think she has blackmailed you until you are running scared b/c you are afraid she’ll try to hurt herself again. So, once again your ego is taking a beating.

Well, I got more emotional than I meant to as I got into all of this. I do hope you will try to stop feeling so sorry for yourself and start being the "man" you need to be and stop letting your W emotionally blackmail you. Think about the fact that "you" could have been the one who had an A. In fact, you came very close to it ......and still thinking about "what if".

Deep, you asked: "DanceQueen, can I ask you a question? During the times when you and H were trying to work things out, and as you said, trusting in your love to carry it thru, would you say you were back in love with H, re-connected with him, and had the best intentions? You were disgusted with OM (and this is hitting a red flag becuase it is exactly what W is saying), in what way did his presence cause a D eventually?"

Yes I was back in love, reconnected and had the best intentions. Yes I was discusted with OM.

It was not his presence that caused a D eventually. It was the fact that my H and I just trusted our love only, and did not seek out help from a mental health or relationship professional. Then there was the fact that I personally could never heal from my self-inflicted wounds (ie: the affair) because I had to work with this OM every single day. And there was the fact that my H could not heal from it either, because (just as one example) he would come pick me up at work and have to see the OM from time to time. Although my H did trust me with the OM because he knew for a fact that I hated his guts, and although yes I really did hate his guts and never once even spoke to him again, although I saw him everyday....the fact remained, we simply could NOT heal in this situation.

So then later, I finally quit my job and got another one. Again, we never sought help, just figured "oh good, now it might be easier to heal".

But you see...by never seeking help from a professional, and thinking naively that we had it all conquered, what happened was that we never talked it out to discover exactly why I had the affair to begin with. We never were fully honest with each other about how we felt about anything. We were afraid to hurt each other, so we figured covering the truth was somehow better than being brutally honest.

After about 5 more years of me being on my best behavior, I finally cheated again with someone else.

This time, I just figured, wow, I must be a pyscho, horrible, mean, discusting person. I never once thought "oh maybe its because there were flaws in our marriage to begin with, and flaws in myself as a human being". Instead I just beat myself over the head for being a loser.

However, this does not mean it made me stop cheating. I was a totally messed up person by that time.

Everything just got worse from there, and after married a total of 15 years we divorced. H did not even know of the subsequent affairs (although I have since confessed it to him in a long closure letter I sent after our divorce).

THE ONE THING that might have saved our marriage, would have been for me to immediately leave my place of employment and for us to immediately enter marriage counseling and stay with it for several years, until we unrooted all of our problems as a couple and as individuals.

I am begging you to realize that your marriage is not going to survive this affair under the current conditions. You are fooling yourself and your W is fooling herself, too. There are reasons beneath each of your actions and reactions, and those reasons are part of the "why" she had an A. Without deep reflection and counseling, you will never get to the bottom of it, and without her completely disappearing forever out of the OM's life, she will never personally be able to heal, reflect, and find out her own answers to why she has done this horrible thing to you.

DQ

Deep,

Sandi's points are very fair for the most part (I'll get to that).



Transparent yes, but are you still in contact with this OW? Any contact of any kind? The line has already been crossed with this OW as Sandi so rightly points out and as you admit with words like "connection" and "chemistry".

I will be honest with you. After my W left me last year I had a couple of one night stands and kissed a different woman in a bar - all wrong and I regret doing it. One was with a 25 year old woman with whom I had had great conversation and liked very much as an individual. I could say that because my wife had left me I was entitled to, but it was still adultery and the wrong thing to do. I too wanted to save my marriage. I asked my W to delete this OW's numbers as I knew it was the right thing to do but I felt internal resistance as she did it. That is how potent EA/PAs are.

That was over a year ago, I have never had any communication with them since and my W is free to check up on me whenever she feels the need, which nowadays is very rare. Since I have gone to extraordinary lengths to prove that I am trustworthy she says to me all the time "GH31, I trust you completely - you're very reliable".

Sandi's posts about emotional blackmail are absolutely correct as are your need to stand up to your W.

The only thing that Sandi has written which I take exception to is this:



Sandi, ask 100 betrayed husbands to read Deep's post, then ask them if they too are amazed at what we have written to him. Deep's W gave her heart and her genitals to another man and is still in contact with him. Ask any Jew if they would want pictures of SS officers in their homes or how they feel when a perpetrator of the Holocaust says "it wasn't my fault, I was just following orders". Cheating whilst living with and married to your spouse is a vile and cruel thing to do and as Puppy says, it's particularly eviscerating for a man to be betrayed.

Hi and thanks for all your replies again.

Sandi, wow. Ok, some of the things you said really hit me. But I guess it's good, at least here I know I get honesty in remarks even if they hurt like those by you and PDT. Let me try and answer what you posted.

The W likes money. Always has, still does. But she tells me she has learnt to moderate it, that there's more to life. When the A first broke and I snapped at her "I'm sure the money had nothing to do with your love eh?", she was very honest to reply that it was a big part for what happened. "Do you think I would be stupid enough to fall in love with him if he was just some working guy off the streets?" to paraphrase her. She married me when we had far less, but that's another story. Why did it seem like I handled it well? Well among other things , running my own biz means taking risks, and yes in that sense it was unstable, but I still brought home more than she ever did, year after year, even after her big time banking job took off. Especially when I started to stand up for myself, I decided I had nothing to be sorry for in that department.

And yes, the attention and pandering by a rich client that was respected (even feared) by her whole bank dept was another reason.

The sex thing. Yups. She said they kissed and petted. Yeah, right. 2 adults in a private pool at a spa with champagne and chocs. I bet.

The emotional blackmail. I have nothing to say ... the OD. Yes she OD'ed in front of me (very late) and I had to rush her to the ER myself the next morning. The sent message thing, I mentioned it once, and she slapped her head and said she forgot to reset it. I did not and am not going to bug her about it. It's demeaning.

The twisted part, I'm not sure I get your meaning. She got shocked, but I was not going to walk for someone else, I WAS tempted to walk away from the pain many times of course. I'm waffling (admittedly) on confronting on some things because so much has gone so well ... and I'm asking if it's worth risking it. Such a heavy price has already been paid to get here ...

The self esteem thing - well obviously. It's about the most humiliating and emasculating thing that can be done to a guy. And yes, she can be a good actress. Back when we were constantly tearing at each other, she told me bluntly "I'm a liar and a damn good one, you should know that by now". And yes she would do it for the kids, she really loves them and has ALWAYS been a great mum (except for the darkest period of her A). The word play between "love" and "care", ok maybe I did let out what I was feeling. She did tell me she was not in love with me, but cared for me, like she might care for the kids or her mum, but she won't miss them like OM, and the connection and "butterflies in the tummy" feeling was only with him. I hope I'm making sense here.

Now regarding me and "OW". No, there was never anything remotely sexual, not on my part, hands on my heart. Chemistry as in we really just got along very well. When I said "hooked up" I meant I contacted her (after a TOTAL cut off) when she texted me how bad she was sinking into pain and asked me why I'm not there for her to talk to. Even then, I did not meet her, I only spoke over the phone and texted.

When she flew in on that trip, we had dinner and drinks. We stayed in separate hotels, not just separate rooms. She had healed a lot faster it seemed and we were just talking about life and the decisions whether to D when a spouse strays. And that's it. No cuddling, no physical contact, period. I never thought of her romantically, and frankly even if I D then, I would NOT have tried to develop anything with her. Even more so now. We were friends and that's it.

Yes, I maintain there never was any EA, PA, any A on my end because I just wasn't in the mindset for it. But I did need support and someone to talk to. Talking to my close guy friends helped, but as a GUY there was only so much I could say without making the emasculation even worse. I could not talk to any of our families - I thought my Dad would have killed her and her Dad certainly would have. (they still don't know). It was clear we were having issues and MY parents screwed me over thinking I had an A, and I could not defend myself like I wanted to. Shitty, shitty, shitty situation I tell you.

I never hid the fact I was talking to "OW" from W. She knew, just not the details. There were no "secret" emails where we were being lovey dovey. It was like an email version of this board (which I wish I found back then). Talking to each other what my W or her H was doing, what we were doing to cope, just simply having SOMEONE to say how F-KED up we were feeling. Do you understand? Yes, I did not show these emails to W at first, just like I would not show my posts here to her, same reasons.

What W found were texts from "OW" when she was feeling down and details of how we were coping. W felt betrayed over me sharing stuff with "OW" that I was not sharing with her. ( I mean, what was I going to do for example telling "OW" I did not believe my W, that at times I just wanted to walk and forget the pain, the lies I kept finding in W's statements then, and how I intended to talk to OM and OMW?). These were things I could NOT tell W because of where we were but she felt cheated that I was essentially baring my soul to another woman. It's not like she found an "I love you" or "I miss you" EVER. From either of us. And when she freaked out, yes I gave her my passwords, turned my cell over, let her do whatever she wanted.

yes I could have been stupid, but the point is we never got to the point where it became anything like a real possibility. And we never will.

You're right about the ego though. I put my hands up on that. It took a huge beating and maybe it still is. Yups, taking for granted that women USED to find me attractive and that W used to be proud of that. I admit it helped my ego a lot to still feel attractive. Like I said, W told me about the "connection", which I've come to realise hurt a damn lot more. And the money thing was her admission as mentioned above. OM is not just rich btw, he is obscenely rich. I guess in a way, those memories of situations where OM got me to be present and engaged me socially is hurting like hell still. As unbiased as I can be (and yes I know I'm biased), he is really a hideous little man whom I disliked but had to be pleasant too as W's client. And the things he did to rub it in then ... I don't want to think about them, much less write them down now ...

Oh and W and I never lived together, I'm sorry I gave that impression. We dated for about 7 years. Yeah we "petted" in the traditional sense and stuff, but the sex thing was a line she could never cross. Whether the "can't live with what they're done" line is right or not, that is W feels.

You're also right about not feeling sorry for myself. But look, doing the "man" thing is actually not that difficult (in some parts at least). If I'm being weak in worrying about undoing the good that has happened and in harm that might come to W if I force issues ... well that's a weakness I have to think about how to address.