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Punkt, you asked about my ideas of GALing, and my busyness may have been a problem in the M. I am success oriented and I am involved in many things. First I work 40-50 hours a week, I co-own a small business on the side and I have to constantly study and take certifications to stay abreast in my field. All of this has occurred in the past 5-6 years of the R going into the M. As far as the anger from my sitch, I manage, I try my best not to let it bottle up and get out of hand. And the exercise part, well if I worked out any more I would look like a professional body builder. I probably already do. My idea was to work and carry the load so that my W could concentrate on school and then we would both have professional jobs. You know, kinda set ourselves up to be comfortable enough to start a family. My W was aware of my thoughts on this. She worked maybe 3-4 days a week coupled with school and other than that, she had nothing else to do. Idle minds. Half the time she was not even taking classes and that was hard for me because I had a plan and I knew how hard I worked and what I was working for. With that said, in all these years, she is barely into her major and had stopped school all together. I told all of this to our MC a few years back and aked if my W's lack of involvement could cause her to seek out other things to take up time. Unfortunately, I think that is what occurred, she got involved with my neighbors W and they had a pretty healthy night life. That was her hobby. When I seen that it was getting out of hand I put a stop to it.

Through DR, I have been painstakingly looking at self and trying to correct my own faults as well as setting goals. I realize the areas I have not been my best, even though I was constantly trying and doing better. That would be the nurturing of the M. Just being so busy trying to make a future for us, I lost the balance at times. I would do a weekly to-do list and in that list make plans to spend time with my W, as well as picking out days weekly in my planner so that we could have time together. Well she hated that I did that. She would say, "I want to be in a spontaneous relationship where I don't have to be put on a to-do list or be remembered in a planner".

My W called me 2 days before Valentine's Day and left a message on my voicemail. Her attitude was horrible; it was about the mail situation. I think in an earlier thread I mentioned that we talked after this message, and the conversation I thought was really odd. I felt as though she was trying to bait, so I was trying to avoid. She called and left a message to see how I was doing I think the day before Valentine's Day. I think I'm getting these days mixed up but anyway, she left a message the day after Valentine's Day saying that she was trying to reach out to me and that it is crazy how I just stop communication with her and go dark. She said one day we talk then you won't take my calls. In the end, she says," Again I am calling to see how you are doing and trying to reach out to you if the requirements have changed let me know what I need to do, I know you can txt if you don't want to talk, but I guess you will call when you want". I have not responded to this, seems she always has the ability to put the ball in my court.

Lyfe, You SHOULD change your name to Still Living, PMA starts in your head, not at the gym.

Still Waters wrote you a VERY powerful post. There's a lot in there to examine closely.

I won't rehash not giving her ammo, but as a way to judge your decisions, imagine telling someone you really respect about your actions if he didn't know ANYTHING about the sit. If you would feel the need to explain your actions, they probably aren't in the DBing spirit.

I agree with S.L. on exposure, the roaches run when the lights get turned on. In retrospect for me, it lasted about 3 years. In retrospect, I would have told the OM's wife, my XW's boss, (they worked together,) her parents, everyone.

That approach is not for everyone, it's for a man who is ready to call end-game and ready to deal with the fallout of a train wreck. Kids make a difference there. Now I wish I had though.


Best,

Punkt.

LYFE,



Yes, this is what they do, they have to b/c they don't feel attached anymore, and they need the conflict to justify their actions. And no, nothing makes sense anymore. For the immediate future, nothing is going to make sense. Sorry.



Stop it. This isn't constructive. Yes she failed, but leave off with laying blame. It helps no-one, especially not you.

This is like a blame train going around and around in your head. Unplug it, forget it. Deal with today, right now.

Trust me. I did the same thing, it didn't help.

If you want to know the secret to getting better with or without her, here it is.

Forget blame.

Let her, and I mean REALLY LET her answer to God or your higher power for whatever she may have done wrong. NOT YOU.

This is where forgiveness and your healing start. It's easier said than done, but this is where it begins



Venting is a BIG part of what this place is all about. Do it here, not with her, friends, her family, church, or co-workers. Understand though, that some of us will call you on things too. That sympathetic learning is also what this place is for.

About other people, leave them out of it. If you out the affair, then out it with her, him, family, bosses if you work together, etc. but leave everyone else out of it.

Outing an affair is different than venting about their shortcomings, (which I think you already know.)

In fact, when it comes to the D, if a person is not involved, leave them out of it. It will be so much easier to rebuild your life if you haven't dragged others into the drama.



That's OK man, this can take time to adjust to, Finding yourself here and deciding on your approach should be well considered.

Once you do though, Stick to your guns. Make your decisions and stick to them



Well, I'm glad that you can see this trap for what it is. I'm not about to advocate avoidance when we are talking about dealing with marital issues, but when we talk about the MLCer making up reasons for conflict, I'm all about avoidance. You're right to not give her reasons.

My marriage (is still,) failed, but I wholeheartedly espouse this, Don't engage in conflict that enables their view that the demise of the marriage is "your" fault.

If I could tell myself one thing through a way-back machine, it would be this.... "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not going to argue with you."

This may not save your marriage, but it'll save YOU so much conflict and heartache that I can't begin to describe it. This is how you drop the rope.

Like I and everyone else keep saying, you can't save her, you can only save yourself.



Well, unfortunately, a lot of people do. I'm constantly amazed at the alien's ability to self justify damn near anything.

It borders on sociopathy, but neither of us can fix that.

Focus on what you CAN fix. You.


Best,

Punkt.

Punkt is giving you some pretty amazing advice as is Grace, and while I do not know Still the advice is rock solid.

You should listen to it, especially about blame and pressure.

Yes your an amazingly good man, strong and courageous, and she is weak and wanting...thats a good attitude to have around her...superior. Let us know how that turns out.

I don't want to sound contrite but my wife left, father had a severe stroke; on life support until November, grandfather passed, business partner decided to move on, my b-day, W's b-day and our anniversary all occurred over the course of the holiday season into the New Year. So if I don't have PMA then it doesn't exist. But like you said Punkt, and it was very appropriate, on the name change to Still Living as opposed to Living. And no, these things have not killed me but it has definitely been rough for me lately. I will survive.

I spoke to my W after the comment from Still and the conversation went ok. We talked for over an hour, and to my surprise there was no baiting. The conversation went so long I had to let her go because I was late to work. I can say it felt good to talk but it just feels and seems meaningless. I feel as though I'm getting better at not giving her ammo. I woke up a few days ago crying, but it was a different cry. It was not for our M, it was just me feeling like I just could not do this anymore. Of course I can forgive, but can I let my W get close to me again, enough to trust. No pun intended but something is definitely wrong with our sitch. My W has left me so many times, maybe 5-6; this time being the longest and most severe. So instinctively, I was doing some of the things in DR without knowledge, just because of being here so much I was just tired of being tired. But hey, the next day I'm re-reading her txt messages from months past like I was gonna find a hidden gem, the answer to all my woes or a greater insight that would give me the answer to get her back. Same old messages. I think I am starting to see how important DR is in making ME better for ME in the long run. Maybe that's PMA.

My W, to my surprise has been calling a lot, well maybe not a lot but it seems like a lot. Well I have not seen her physically in maybe 4-5 months. A week ago my brother called and said he would be in town to see our father and to expect him in late morning or early afternoon. So later that week, I was awakened by the door bell and then banging on the door. And without pause, went and started unlocking the door while looking through the peep hole, and low and behold it was not my brother but my W. I let her in, and it was good seeing her, but it was really awkward, sort of like a first date. We went to the living room and sat across the room from each other and pretty much just played catch up, coupled with some lite flirting. This lasted maybe an hour and sure enough she was looking for conflict at times, but I gave her no energy. Upon leaving, she said "Next time you should cook something" so I said yeah ok. Then not even 2 minutes later she says "Oh, you did not have to change the locks, you could have saved your money and got your keys back. I told you I was not gonna come back over here" And that almost did it, but I held my composure. When she finally left, I just smiled because now I can see her wanting and looking for that conflict and I did not give it. It felt so good I couldn't go back to sleep. It also hurt because this was the day after our anniversary.

Lyfe, that doesn't sound trite, it sounds like real life. It never rains but it pours, and pours, and sleets, and hails. I am very sorry to hear about your father and grandfather. Losing my grandfather was very difficult for me, and when my father was in the hospital following a stroke, it was twice as hard. I hope that you are doing well.


Yes, DB/DR IS intended for you to get your S together. It's not a way to fix her, only she can do that, if she decides she wants to.

You have no say in that.

What you have a say in, is simply this, who you are right now.

I'll steal a quote from Breton to Gman w/ my reply here....




Also,

Yes, that's where PMA comes in. More importantly, this is also a lesson in "get used to it." It's harsh, but true. Same old messages. There's a reason for that.



The reason is that it isn't there.

She'll ask you to be more "sensitive," you will, then it's "less controlling," you will, then it's "more active and fit," you will, then it's more "outgoing," you will.

You will and you will to save your marriage. Guess what plastic man?

It won't.

What she is doing is finding excuses to leave, and for every imagined shortcoming that you "correct," she'll make up another.

Eventually, you will be living a pretend life that you'll never be able to sustain, and there's always one more fault.

DB/DR is about getting back to the person you were before, or rather, who you really are inside when you are comfortable being yourself.

That's your best hope, to "be" the old you, someone who she can come back to b/c that's who she fell in love with.

If she doesn't want that anymore, then you being plastic man will only prolong the agony.


I won't quote it all, but the paragraph you wrote about her coming over strikes a pretty common chord. Her behavior is almost passive aggressive in tone, and you're right not to let it draw you in to the drama.

Don't. It's just one more thing she can lay on the wrong side of the balance.

Good job letting it roll off your back. Keep on in that fashion.

You see, it don't mean S, b/c there'll always be one more thing right now.

Keep on working on you, who you were, who you are, who you want to be. Make it real, not "for her!"


Keep moving towards judging the situation and not her. She's judging herself enough right now for both of you, even if you don't see it. You're doing a 180 right there.

If I could go back to my "bad times," the biggest thing I would do different is to let go of more anger, and be more understanding. I would have let a lot more conflict go. For me, so I wouldn't still be letting it go now. I thought I was, but hindsight.....


Good progress man, keep it up.

Working on a name change yet?

Best,

Punkt.

Obviously.

I'll be honest, reading the above was painful. It seems like you didn't set ANY boundaries with her, and she constantly disrespected you and your marriage, and even emasculated you. Did you take ANY action at those points? When you don't, it's 10x harder to get the toothpaste back in the tube, boundary-wise, but it CAN be done. And the GOOD news is, if this is the way you've always been (overly passive, pleasing, classic "Mr. Nice Guy") then it doesn't take much for your "180" to be VERY dramatic, and have great effect.

I'm sorry you're having to go thru this -- I did to, and it's very painful, I know.

Puppy

Yes Puppy, I did address the situations when they occurred and yes I am VERY passive and the classic nice guy. I'm the type that doesn't want to go to bed angry; very forgiving I guess. Maybe I was just trying to honor the "For better or worst" aspect. I know I walked on eggshells a many of times picking my battles, but in the end I see that did not help because ultimately my M resides in this state of limbo. I was initially going to address the person at work, but how I felt at the time it more than likely would have led to something else because I felt so disrespected by both of them. Furthermore, I realized that he could only do what she let him do. I definately let that situation get out of control, there were so many times that I should have addressed him and her or both of them together. When I tried to set the boundaries with co-worker thing she would just get defensive. I knew that was not good. My W seems to have just been bent on doing her. Early in the separation, she actually told me that she let him know about our current situation, so they still talk; she still doesn't get it. Again, blatant disrespect/betrayal, and as much as I wanted to address it I avoided the conflict. Eggshells again. Not sure how or when she lost her respect for me, but it's definitely gone astray.

As far as the boundaries, at every juncture, I have asked and tried to communicate so that we would be on common ground, but again she has managed to keep everything wide open and subjective. There have been some changes at times since my 180 and LRT, but my W is a tit for tat kind of person, so whatever I do she will match or try to outdo. That's the sad part, but something is in the air I just don't want to put too much into it. Hopefully, I will be able to update what has transpired this past week later on tonight


thanks for the support

Punkt, THANKS, I surely did not realize that the no conflict is MY 180. When I read what you wrote, that really hit me. And yes, one of the Four Horsemen: contempt. I am sure it was present b/c I felt it and seen it as well as the defensiveness. I don't want a D, but I'm getting to a point where I'm questioning the validity of this M, or if it's even worth the effort, the enduring emotional agony, loneliness and last but not least the abstaining. My mind is wondering upon wondering how long she has not been a W to me. I know I'm not supposed to do these things, but I have my days, my fears and my doubts; that human stuff. All this not confronting and avoiding conflict are small victories but these conversations about nothing are just hard to deal with. I don't want to go down a "cheeseless tunnel" (passive, Mr. niceguy). That's kind of who I've been with my W. Sometimes I feel like all my efforts are just allowing this situation to continue at its current state. Then at other times, I fell I need to be more aggressive, even though the no conflict seems to be a catalyst for whets been occurring. I will stand on that point of no conflict. DR says to do what works, and that seems to be working. I'll just have to do my best to be patient and keep working to rebuild the respect. I agree that she is judging herself even if I am not a witness to it.

Here's the update: Not sure if something has ran its course or is about to, but my W has been calling a least twice a week the past couple of weeks. This weekend she calls to ask me if I want to go to the movies. Well, I was visiting my father and missed the call and got the message through voicemail. I return the call and we have this nothing conversation for about an hour. Then she asked if I had plans for the night and I said no, because the weather was bad. She said all she does is go to the movies and I asked why, and she says to stop herself from going crazy. Then she asked if she could come by since I'm not leaving out. I warned her that the weather was bad, but she said she would be ok and that she also needed to see if she left one of her medical books at the house. She still has a lot of stuff at the house. So she came over around 10pm and this is only the 2nd time I've seen her since our separation. This just sprung into my mind; I have not touched my wife in over half a year. But anyway, we are well into another nothing conversation and she starts to talk about marriage and about a lot of our friends at the church who are getting divorced and who's cheating on who. In the midst of that conversation, she starts to tell me about a talk she had with a girlfriend about her divorce. My W says "I told her that her H should not have been cheating, it would be different if you guys were separated and he was with someone else". I swear I almost threw the kitchen sink at her or threw her at the kitchen sink. I could rationalize for years what that meant, but it seems as though she's setting up her reasoning's to condone an action or actions that she's been involved in. I let it go, but I did interject that if they were separated it still isn't right. That really bothered and hurt me that she would sit up and talk about marriage with another person, when she doesn't even communicate those things to or with me her H. I was pissed, but held it in. I walked her out to her car around 2am and went back inside. A few minutes later the doorbell is ringing, she forgot to look for the book.

Like is said she is a tit for tat kind of person, and with that said, I am not sure what to do. If I don't respond or meet her half way, she will say she tried. Then again this could be a search for another excuse to leave; her trying and me not. How long do we keep having these conversations about nothing? When can I talk about our M and where it is at or going? Since she asked me out, should I return the gesture?

Lyfe, bear with me, I want to refer to a couple of things.

No conflict is an awesome 180! I think you got what I meant about the respect/contempt thing, so as critical as I think it is, I'll leave that alone. Good catch.

I think the most relevant thing I've said is "Good job judging the situation and not her...." Really... if you are standing, (and I hope you ARE,) then this is the place you need to be.

Judging HER is where you would be when you are looking towards a divorce. If that's not what you want, then DON'T. Has she done wrong? well, yes. Do you have some ownership in the failure of the M? Well...? Don't detail it here, but probably yes, even though it might be tiny comparatively, even though it might only be giving in too much. The point is, we're living in a glass house you and I, and who's to say what's the first or bigger sin, (stone.)

Own yours now, and be honest with yourself. (It hurts.)

Don't take ownership of imaginary junk. Don't take on her fault finding unless it's true.




Anyway, having said that, HELL YES meet her halfway!!!

Drop pride and meet her there. Don't be a doormat, if you have something else going on, work, family, friends, personal time, then no, she's second. (this is NOT punitive, don't make something up.)

Otherwise, the answer is yes, but don't be desperate about it.

You are accomodating her need here, and it just so happens that it MIGHT work towards your goal of saving the marriage as well.


If she wants to go to the movies, dinner, etc., then go. Together time is good time. DON'T be sappy. You should approach it as though you are a gracious man who is going out with a woman who might soon be your ex, not as the last best chance to save your M. It doesn't work that way. Relax and let it flow.

Also, DON'T be a jerk! DON'T let your anger show through. (experience knocking here!)

The line to draw is if your togetherness generates conflict about the M or about D. If that happens when you see her, then "no thanks, I'm busy," or "no thanks, I'm not comfortable with that."


If you go to XYZ with her, DON'T bring up R talk. In fact, if you get to see her at all, DON'T bring up R talk unless she does, or unless that was the original reason for the meeting.

This is pressure. (trust me, DON'T!)



Only when SHE does. It's not fair, it sucks, etc. But do you want to be "right" or do you want to be "loved?"

We could take up entire threads on this subject alone, but it boils down to this, "you don't get to bring it up w/o being the bad guy, and you only get to talk about it when she wants to."

To make it really sink in, count how many old-timers here dispute what I just wrote about us bringing up R talk.




Ok, seriously, take a step back for a second. Forget this Abott and Costello sort of I know that you know that I know that you know.....

YOU are going to be the bad guy in her mind NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO! Forget that! Yes, she is looking for reasons. If she REALLY wants to see you, then it will be a "wash," or a "positive," in her mind. (as long as you're not an A$$.) If she's pimping you to be the bad guy anyway, then you don't go, you're an A$$, you do go, she starts a fight with you about the D, and you're an A$$. Doesn't matter.

Do yourself a favor and unload about 16 tons of number nine coal from yourself on this and let it go. It really does feel like 16 tons when you finally do.

DUDE, She asked you to a movie! Jump on that.
Yes, you should take each opportunity that is offered to interact with her on a positive note... NO, you should NOT try the whole manipulation bit with "I'll see you," "I won't see you."

If you are standing, then see her. I haven't read anything from you that would make me say not to.


Having said that, on th off chance that she is fishing for a conflicting situation, one talent I wish I had learned a LONG time ago is to be able to stop in the middle of conflict and say "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not going to argue with you about this." and walk away. If you find yourself in conflict, srop it, and walk away.

I don't think she was though.

I know that it would be about like sticking a fork in your cheek to call her and ask her out, but maybe an easy way to do it would be to call her and say something like "I had a lot on my mind about my dad the other night when you called me, would you still like to go to the movies?"

If she declines, then understand that the MLC alien changes hourly at times, and be gracious, not needy or insistant.

Also, JMHO, if she wants to call and talk about nothing, then humor her if you have nothing else going on, but not if you do. It's a little bit of a tease, but not in a teasing spirit. This lets her know that you still love her enough to humor her, but that if you have laundry to do, or a family engagement, or a show to catch, that she, (someone outside the household,) comes second.%0