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PDT,

Maybe. But I know alot of people who have had thought about EAs or PAs with others and talked it over with friends and they didn't go through with them. Kind of like going to a C or minister.

I think what's rare is someone talking about a potential EA or PA and then stopping and saying "wait a minute! what am I thinking? maybe there's something wrong with my R to begin with and that's why I'm having these thoughts. I should work on my own M"

Now THAT's rare.

I did that more than once. It is part of living in a world full of temptation and recognizing that the M commitment is not a negotiable item. I know other women who have done this too. But, it may be beside the point.

aak,

just goes to prove how rare you are! How about sending some of those DB kung fu kicks over to my W to "knock" some sense into her. LOL

I'm going to go out on a limb here. I relate a lot to your W in some ways more than others. Hang in here with me...I'm hoping I can help.



Well, there's a clue.



Ok, the baby in the bed is only a problem IMO if you don't find other ways to connect and be intimate. Life revolving around a new baby is so common (and necessary to a degree)...it is sad that it elicits such feelings of resentment for Hs and in turn polarizes the couple even more. The first year after baby is born can be a huge adjustment and especially with breast-feeding (thus drastically reduced sexual desire), many marriages suffer. Most people are not prepared.

When you're giving life and limb to take care of baby, it is aggravating to have H complaining about not getting enough attention. I was there. In retrospect, I understand my H's feelings but in it, it just came off as juvenile and self-centered...why couldn't he just co-parent and delay gratification for a while like I was. Her isolation was likely what made her envision herself as a single parent. Maybe it would be easier and more gratifying to fulfill baby's needs alone since she didn't know how to fulfill yours AND, your wanting more from her felt like a burden. I am not saying this is reasonable but I am just pointing out that you became adversaries (you already had a history of that with the break-ups).



You were still more of drain to her than a partner. The negatives were outweighing the positives.



I agree.


Be honest, how well was "well?" Was it really working? Or was it just better in relation to the other rough times?

Did she struggle at all with leaving her kids to go back to work?





Weird, wrong, in so many ways.



Did that provoke any major changes?



Yep, sounds familiar. I'm not trying to be snide but did you not anticipate your sex life dwindling after second baby? Given the first experience?

Regardless, this dynamic stinks. I lived it. It sucks when your spouse wanting sex with you feels like one more thing you've got to get done and a burden. I was there and I felt like cr*p about myself and H.



I can relate.



I think that you are right and since it has been a rough long road, her imagination carries her away.

Man, I'll call yours if you'll call mine.

You're gonna do the kung-fu. you just have to be ready.

aak,

"I understand my H's feelings but in it, it just came off as juvenile and self-centered...why couldn't he just co-parent and delay gratification for a while like I was. Her isolation was likely what made her envision herself as a single parent."

BINGO! I get it now! Thanks for that lightbulb moment. I've been trying to "mindread" her since she doesn't open up, to try and see things in her shoes and I think you've done it.

"Be honest, how well was "well?" Was it really working? Or was it just better in relation to the other rough times?

Did she struggle at all with leaving her kids to go back to work?"

I think it was "well" in terms of being better than the rough times. Although we never really had any "rough" times that I knew of. She might have been swallowing some that in though. When she went back to work, I think she wished she could have stayed home with them, but I don't think it was a hard thing for her to go back.

"Did that provoke any major changes?"

Not really, because by that point she had already dropped the bomb. Even before she dropped the bomb, I found out from her mom that my W had been telling her that she wanted out of the R, but didn't elaborate why. I couldn't believe my MIL couldn't tell me at that time that something was wrong.

"Yep, sounds familiar. I'm not trying to be snide but did you not anticipate your sex life dwindling after second baby? Given the first experience?"

Not really, because I didn't really figure out what the problem was after the first one. We just kind of went along with the flow and rolled with the changes and assumed that's just the way life is. Now I know better.

Thanks for the clarity. You are totally awesome. And yeah we should arrange for a drive-by DB kung-fu attack on both our spouses. They just don't know who they're messing with.

I pretty much agree with 90% of what AK said. As a mom I DID resent the fact that h wanted to ML when "someone"...oh, wait, I mean ME, was up all night and oh btw, I WORKED FULL TIME TOO and even when I didn't work full time, the hours and physical demands of pregnancy and childbirth and then recovering from those HUGE events WHILE also caring for a newborn...um, yeah it's annoying to have someone else there and not helping as much as possible, let alone making more demands. My h was pretty good about that, truth be told.

But my little brother and his w were expecting their first and my sisters and I all warned him not to be self centered or judge anything about the M the first 6 months of a new baby's life in their family....But he was a fool and whined after about 2 weeks of the baby's existence and continued to whine and wanted to walk out the door the FIRST month of his kids' life until I and my 3 sisters & 5 brothers all did "some 'splainin' to him. Then his w's mother came to help and my brother said he felt "left out"...

Yes of course he would feel "left out" b/c his concerns were all about himself and having to cook dinner for himself (I know, yet we are related by blood)..and he made demands on his wife, who was a brand new mom herself and did very little to support the efforts she was making. Yeah, you can lead a horse to water....

And When HER mom came out to help, and was useful and made no requests of her daughter, she and SIL bonded more and brother was adrift. I hope he wakes up. So, some of what you said hit home a heard of both sides having hormone changes but can only speak of my own). I'd say not to judge your m by how it goes when you have a baby, for several months at least. Don't overlook the physical effects of it all and the sleep deprivation. And when a man sees a baby as competition, it is a big turn off. So if OM came to the brithday party and did not act as if it was a contest between him and the kids, but rather "joined in her concerns for the kids' welfare" he's going to look good to her if you are acting like she has to choose between the kids and you. She should not have to do that. But you can't share a marriage bed with a kid either, or if you do, then as AK says, "make other arrangements" and you know stk, you could rent a hotel room and hire a sitter...?? maybe when you get a chance...

I read somewhere that the lowest amount of ML frequency in most m's, is after the birth of the 2nd child. That's a pretty well known stat and couples report their lowest "marital happiness" from an intimacy standpoint, at that time.

So A lot of what your wife felt was normal, imho. Her bonding with her mom and sister was related to many things but that includes the fact that they did not burden her. Sorry...but can you see how that might have looked to her?

On all the other issues, I'll have to ponder more before commenting. I recognize some of the behaviors and wonder what would happen if you acted as if or went dark...I do wonder. Does she like her mom's life now?

Off I go, to ponder...
j-

Uh...this is tough...the ONLY thing that got me out of my H is the enemy funk was H leaving. NOW, my sitch is different. And, I never crossed the lines your W did.

I think there are issues that kicked in for BOTH of you when the first baby was born...kind of Freudian and you can explore what came up for you if it serves you.

She clearly felt safer devoting herself to the babies. Now, at first that is normal but when you started complaining and with her insecurities and inner-abandoned child screaming "he's gonna leave, take care of the babies, screw him." I am right now recognizing how that happened in my M. I felt threatened when I couldn't deliver for H and I went into protection mode. It is so counter-productive and sad to see we fell into that pattern over and over. When I saw that he was disgruntled and unsatisfied (and he had a very juvenile way of showing it), instead of diligently trying to tend to that, I withdrew...better to focus on what I can do well. Obviously this was not conscious. It is just looking back RIGHT now that I see it clearly.

SO, the good news is there are things you can do. Can you find the things she is doing right and acknowledge them? You have to decide if this is worth it to you. She needs to wake the f up and see her part and she may not want to until you are gone (if ever)...It is sad and scary but at some point, I think you are going to get fed up and lay it out on the line with her.

I am thinking about how this would manifest but you've got some steps between now and then anyway.

I mean really. "W. Do you want me to leave you? Because that is not what I want. You have been such a wonderful wife in x,y and z ways...you are so capable of x. I have always loved Zing with you...even now, when you y, I see the potential for us to have a wonderful marriage."

I believe you have to be ready to let her go at that point (the old facing the D but keeping hope)...and then, IMO, you can say it. "You were left as a child, I get that. You had fear that I would leave you. I've never even considered leaving you." I don't know Stuck, some day you're gonna just say what you really think with love and clarity.

What is your game plan as of right now?

I'm still thinking about this...

This sentence negates itself. If she wished she could stay home, it was hard. Don't underestimate it.

Huh, what??? multiple break ups (drama), you were sex-starved after baby 1...a lot of this sounds rough.