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the idea about moving was intially to be closer to my family, as they are a great support (parents, two sisters, a brother, and 2 or 3 close friends) and also to be in a new environment to help with the GAL effort.

But now I am definitely on the fence about if it was the right decision. He doesn't know that I am making the move, only that it is a possibility and does not seem to care.

Regarding the memorial site for our lost baby, my H's cousin/best friend planted a tree for us on his farm property. Last summer we burried the baby's remains there together. Since this all happened, I have back to stay with his cousin and his wife (our best friends) but my H has not. He has shut them out of his life and pusposefully plays phone tag to avoid dealing with his cousin. I doubt he would agree to visiting the tree memorial any time soon. He openly admits that he has not dealt with the baby loss, but is only self pittying about it, no changes made. Though he is persisting with counseling. So who knows.

Regarding bills, he pays for his own apartment, etc now, and contributes monthly to our joint debts. Other than the remaining joint debts our finances are basically seperate now, which is actually a good thing because he himself identified that he needed to learn to be responsible for such things, instead of relying on me. I have let go of that role, except to make sure that he transfers money for the payments, since those debts have my name on them. I always have to bring it up though. He does not initate still.

Right now I am getting a bit of R&R and am planing to return back to home city next weekend. Will need to make final decision about move/not move. Wondering if I should try to see him at that time or not. Wondering if he has actually pursued filing the divorce.

thanks sutck and WCW, I really appreciate your input.

initally the move was for me, what I thought was best, to be in new environment, be close to family and a couple of close friends.

now that it is happening, I am second guessing, as I am leaving behind more close friends who have been good support so far. And, I was finding it difficult there. Every place I went had a memory of us and it was a bit awkward on the mutual friend front.

as far as the job, it would pretty much be a lateral move until I figure out what I would like to do more.

thanks for the advice on love language book...i had actually been meaning to read that for a while.

so you think period contact is ok...or none at all, no pursuing? RIght now I am R&Ring a bit with family, but planning to return back to home city next weekend. Will need to make final decision and follow through with move plans or not. Am wondering if I should try to see H then or not.

As you can see, have major difficulty with decision making here..

Traveldane,
I can relate to what you're going through with your husband. I admire your strength in getting through your miscarriage. I can't even imagine how hard that must have been.

I think your husband is depressed and he's using OW to mask his sadness. Just know that you are not alone with your frustration and hurt. I'm going to continue going dark with my WAH. I'm GAL and projecting happiness,(even if I have to fake it) whenever he does come around.

Do you need to make a decision about moving soon and does H know about your desire to move? If you don't have to decide right away, I would hold off on that for awhile.

Remember that you are not responsible for his depression or his behavior. Stay strong and be kind to yourself.

Me 40
WAH 43
T 4 years
M 9 1/2 months
stepson 9
separated 3 1/2 weeks
1 dog
1 cat

Traveldane...
I am sorry you find yourself here and in this sitch. It is so hard and painful. Everytime I think I have it bad, I just remember that there are people like you who are dealing with this too, and under different circumstances it might be harder. I am so sorry for the loss of your baby.

My H left me and although the sitch's are different, I can really relate to the shock and disbelief you have gone thru. I knew we were up and down, but I NEVER thought he woul leave me. Never. I would have never left him. We get along, have 2 beautiful daughters, he is ALWAYS so proud of us all, and we definately get each others sense of humor. I think he is hilarious and we love(d) to joke around! So...that being said, I relate.

I am also dealing with stay v. go because my lease is almost up and I wanted to move home to be with family and friends back there...my support system. I have changed my mind, but let me just say that it is NOT to continue my DBing, as I believe you can do that from anywhere. It is not in hopes of reconciling. (although I am not giving up on that idea!!) It is because I have built a life for myself here and until I decide that I want to change that as well, I am staying put. Do what you thik will benefit you the most...and if you can take the time, do it. You don't need to decide right away.

As for the contact...I liked the idea about missing the dog. Some carefully planned out communication just so you can DB and show him what he is missing. I know when I have seen H and DBed...looking super hot, and acting happy and mysterious...I started noticing some reaction. I hope this is good advice, since I am not really in a place to give it out, but itis mostly based on what I have read in DR and what I have read here. The book actually says that if what you are doing isn't working (going dark) than try a new approach. Or inject a new approach along with going mostly dark. If you notice any reaction...do it again in a timely manner and if not, abort mission.

I hope this helps....you are in my prayers...

Thanks hopful and Nicole,

I think I will try to see him when I go back next week for some dog walking time together. Its a bit nerve racking because I always tend to feel sad after seeing him that he doesn't pursue me at all, but I guess just building up small positive interactions is the best I can do right now.

I think he is depressed too, but also know that he is a person that does not like to look back on anything, so I think he is doing his damndest to push forward with plan of ending our marriage completely and perhaps getting in deeper with OW is helping him along with that.

Friends of ours saw us together a few months ago when we were walking the dog and said that they could see him start to have a good time, and then shake it off, almost like, I told myself I don't have fun with her anymore. I kind of noticed that too. But since then, he has been pretty consistently distant. The last time we were together he hugged me the way I've seen him hug distant relatives! Not good.I wonder if this is because he now feels more connected/commited to OW than me. He seems very concerned about the fact that she (OW) is embarrassed about their friendship/relationship and has gotten a lot of negative feedback about it from their mutual colleagues. I think my H is embarassed about it too but not enough to stop it obviously, and also seems protective of her for being distressed over it (the ultimate insult, caring more about her feelings than mine). I really have no idea as the the nature of their relationship these days, I've sort of ignored that topic with him lately, other than to say that I find it ridiculous. I wonder if this is the right way to handle it.

Hi Montana,

Wanted to thank you for your reply, and for your kind words.

Working on the decision to move or not to move. I think I do have to decide that soon, as the job offer I have in the new place will only stand for so long.

Still, it might be for the best because I was really keeping myself on hold over the last 3 months and maybe the move with help me move forward (not on, but forward). Maybe it will give me the space I need to do for me and him the understanding that I am moving forward.

Its not like I am moving to siberia...he knows where to find me and in some ways, with the point we are at, I would need him to make a real effort to pursue me. Whether its him or anyone else in my life, I am going to need them to be willing to fight for me, for our marriage. I understand that at the present time he doesn't want to becuase he believes it will only bring about more conflict, more hurt. But perhaps if I give time and space, and also work on making the interaction that we do have positive by controling my own behavior and how I contribute to it, maybe some day he will want to fight for us.

Either way, I think it's time for me to focus on me right now.

Thanks again for writing to me. How is your sitch, how is going dark going?

Hi traveldane,

Sounds like you're doing great with the DBing. Do you have 2 different threads going on?

Going dark is not going that good for me. I really need to focus on GAL and PMA big time. I just need to detach cold turkey. This week maybe will be easier because he will be in LA for a week.

I need to start setting up some daily/weekly goals for myself. I think that would help.

Reading what you and orchid have been doing inspires me. Keep up the great work!

Me 40
WAH 43
T 4 years
M 9 1/2 months
H moved out 3 weeks ago
stepson 9
No D filed

Hey Montana,

I know how hard going dark is, especially feeling like they could care less...they WANT the space the darkness provides! Its soooo frustrating.

I try to picture the analogy that many here point to, that if we pursue, even a little bit, they focus only on running. Not sure what they are running towards, but rejecting us and getting away becomes their organizing strategy. Even if it doesn't feel powerful, lets take that power of an organizing strategy away. Run all you want, you are free, go on with your super freedom. Maybe they are whooping it up right now.

But, at a certain point, you can't run from something that is not chasing you. You are left alone with your thoughts, your half baked reasons...

Anyway, the GAL and PMA have to be our focus right now. Its really hard, I am struggling with it so much. People say, do all the things you always dreamed of...yeah, well, I never gave up things I wanted and I actually liked most of what I had, until it fell apart...so thanks for the permission to find myself but...

I think this is where the PMA comes in. Yes, this is not what I want but it is what I have and I am not going to fail myself. I am great, am going to find a little bit of something great, for me. I am trying with the yoga and the seeing friends, etc. It is getting a little easier, or at least, more acceptable to focus on.

One thing that helps me to remember is, my H has to fix himself, I can't help right now, and until he does, just getting back together would not make either of us happy. H is no good to me right now, so just pinning for him is no good. Its not like he is great and whole and just withholding himself from me...he is a mess. I don't want a mess. I want him whole. Sometimes it helps to remember that, so that i don't just focus on WHY can't we just try RIGHT NOW!

Anyway, I think your idea of detaching and trying to conjure up PMA even thought it is really hard, is where its at. Its an investment in yourself, which will serve you well regardless of what happens with your M. Goal setting has helped me, it really has.

Hang in, let me now how you are doing!

Hi Traveldane,

Thank you for stopping by my thread and asking me to check out your stitch. I take that as a high compliment and sure hope I don't let you down. There is much I want to say to you and I hope that it will come through the way I feel it in my heart.

First of all, you sound like a very mature lady to be so young. I don't think I was near as mature at that age! Troubles seem to bring that about, doesn't it? Although, I have to add that some people choose to grow up while others choose to run from it.

You and your H have been hit very hard with heartache. Your H faced troubled times when he was young and now he may have the attitude that "trouble" just follows him around. Perhaps he is running. IMHO, I think that is exactly what he is doing.

I had miscarriages, but never was I that far along and experienced what you did. I cannot imagine how horrible that must be for you and your H. Isn't it ironic that he actaully wanted to be a father, when so many young men do not desire that responsibility? Do you think it had something to do with his own parents leaving him? Sometimes when a person did not have a "real" home/parents, it causes them to want to have their own family.

We could talk all day about how this trama affects mothers, but to sum it up.......you have experienced a tragidy that no parent ever wants to have to face. Another sad thing is that neither of you had much of a chance to gieve over the loss of your baby until you had to run to help the family and the problems that laid there. So much burden for such a young couple! What is amazing to me is the fact that you do not sound bitter. A lot of women would feel that way after what you experienced. I think that says a lot about you as a person.

You said that at first the two of you leaned on each other and were close after losing the baby, but then grew apart and dealt with the situation differently. Over the years I have seen the death of a child do one of two things to a couple. It will either bring them closer together or break them apart. I know that your desire is to stay together and your concern for your H is showing just how much you truly care for him.

I feel that your H was not as mature as you were in a lot of things. For instance, the responsibility with paying bills, etc. Many people who are immature--or maybe even self-centered a bit--can't deal with whatever the problem (or fact of life) may be. Instead, they just tune it out as if it didn't exsist......or lets somebody else deal with it. Have you noticed that he was that way about "most" things?

In reading your stitch, it appears that when the two of you suffered the loss of the baby......it was another one of those things in life that your H could not deal with. I wish I could word that in a better way, b/c I don't want to hurt you more than you already are. The fact is, it was terrible on you giving birth to the child and then having to deal with the grief and disappointment of being told what the doctor said. Not only are you grieving for "this" baby, but for other babies you may try to have. This is not something you should have to face alone, and you would certainly think you could lean on your H. The two of you together could face whatever decision you both came to, right? However, I don't think he can handle the fact that having babies in the future will be a difficult achievement. It is hard for us women to think like a man, but I am guessing that this news was taken by him in a different way than what you took it. To a man, I believe he may have seen this as not only a very huge disappointment. but I am wondering if he didn't see it as "failure" on his part as a man? Of course we as women would not think that about our H's. However, some men do have these notions and it is hard for them to get past that thought pattern. If he had had an IC like he should have, he would have been counseled about it and reassured that nothing about "him" was to blame. Nither of you are to blame, but is one of those things in life that we don't understand and seems very unfair (as I am sure you have heard others say many times).

If he wasn't talked to about this from his counselor, then there is no telling what he may be feeling. Every time he looks at you, he may feel that he is not "man enought" to be able to father a child. Or.....he may think he has let you down as a husband and that you would be better off with another man. A lot of that probably depends on what he was taught as a child. That type of "thinking" is hard to break away from its roots.

If he doesn't talk about this with you, then you may never know the truth behind what he is really feeling. Again, I am speculating at this. But, I think I can tell you that he is not being honest with you.

I think he is running away from the truth. He can't deal with it, so he is running. He would not be the first and he won't be the last. That is a lot of people's way of "handling" what they can't really deal with. Of course, nothing is solved, but still that is what they do.

I almost knew what was coming before you told about his job, the long hours, and the OW. I want to tell you what I told another lady. The OW has nothing to do with what your H is doing. She is not the issue, okay? She is simply a salve he is looking to in hopes she will make his pain go away. He may try hard to convince himself that it is working, but some day.......he will discover that the job, the OW, or nothing else will take care of his emptiness--but you.

What do you do in the meantime? First of all, do not pursue in any way, shape, or form!! It will run him farther away. You have told him that you still love him and want the M to work, etc. Please do not tell him that again b/c he knows it and it will have the opposite affects if you continue to tell him. Instead of making him feel the love for you....it will scare him and push him away from you. He is scared, you know, and is running hard to forget all the pain he has suffered and caused you to suffer.

By ignoring his family and the friends the two of you have together.....that tells me he is trying to blot out all the memories he use to have--that now bring him pain. Oh, that sounds so bad to word it like that and I'm sorry for being so blunt. Wish I was better at this! You have the same memories, but you are dealing with it differently than he is. When you look at how he is "drowning" himself in work, new friends, and other things, doesn't it make sense that he is trying to stop thinking and "remembering"? When he sees his family, friends, and especially you......the memories come flooding back. Along with the memories, he feels like a failure.

I believe if you can take the "wait", and hope & pray for him to find a healthy way to face things and stop blaming himself for what "is", then I would tell you to hang on. Don't give him up if you feel that he is worth it. It will take much strength, which you certainly have.....no doubt about that! However, not knowing to what lengths he may go to "drown" everything out.....well, that is kind of scary. Hopefully, he will wake up to the fact he does not love this OW (and in fact, I'm sure he already knows that) or do something crazy.....like get M. Hopefully, he will realize that he cannot continue to run from the love he has for you. In time, when he sees that you are not going to D him and find another person to make a life with......then he may come to his senses. In the meantime, you must give him tons and tons of space for him to find a way to face what he needs to deal with, and be able to live without self-blame or guilt. It will take much time for him to be able to look at you without feeling guilty or even sad. You know that is not "your" fault! He is the one who doesn't know how to deal. I know that you could claim the same thing, but we are trying to think as a man......and that is hard, huh?

Some day when he sees you it will hit him so hard just how much he loves you and he'll know he can't run and hide from that. He'll know that no other person or life will do for him what "you" do. Don't believe all that stuff he is saying now b/c it is only a "cover-up" for what he's really thinking and feeling.

Your thread has had a rather slow take-off but if you will do as you did with me, and go to other people's thread and talk to them, then you will build up a stronger support system. Post when you need to vent, or when you are sad and lonely. Post whenever you want to talk or cry. Post all the time in order to gain strength to get through this.

If you begin to feel that he will not make a turn-around and that life is slipping by, then you need to move forward and make a new life for yourself. In the meantime, you go on and get a life and enjoy it as best as you can until he returns or you feel that it is time to tell him good-bye. Remember not to send postcards or emails. Don't TM his or call. Stay out of his life until the time is right for him to go find you. If you push......you will lose him forever.

Are you seeing a counselor now? Did you get help in "grief" conseling? Before he left, did you and your H ever discuss what the two of you wanted to do about having children in the future? You don't have to say and it's not any of my business......I just wondered if he would even discuss it when the two of you were leaning on each other.

I will talk to you later. If ever you need to find me, come to Sandi's Place in the Piecing forum and look me up.

Take care,
Sandi

Hi Traveldane,

First let me start by saying tha you have been thru just about the worst year I can think of and I admire your strength and fortitude and determination to make your M work. I think miscarriages are one of the toughest things for a person to go thru.....let alone 2 people. I always think of marriage as this continuum upon which 3 relationships are being managed. One is your own self, two is H's self, and three is the R or M.
Yours just got even more complicated with the loss of a child. I am so sorry for your loss.

I think we all have different ways of dealing with the issues that come up in our lives and it seems to me that some problems are harder for one partner to face than the other and the disconnect starts to happen. One thing that I am trying to understand is why my H and I got together in the first place. We have such a different background and like your H, my H has never actually seen a M work. We discussed this and had come up with plans to attack this when we hit rough spots....and yet he choose to not just walk away but go ahead an file for D.

Have you moved away already?

As far as the contact is concerned, I think going dark is good, but if you have an opportunity for contact, definately use it. Look good...Kenn told me that it helps....

I am still working on the entire going dark thing, as you know. I think for me, I have to be more assertive but not tell him how I am feeling. I stay very neutral and "as if" when I have contact with him. Really he doesn't know what to do. In your case, you may have to ride this out a bit longer until H gets tired of OW. I am not sure about that. I will think about it and get back to you.

Right now, the most important thing is to form a support system. I think the first two weeks, I was constantly on the phone with one friend or another. Its difficult, but you are keeping a PMA and that is a lot.

I think you are doing very well. Give yourself a pat on the back!

Also, I am glad that you are sleeping now. Kara gave me this tip on using lavender essential oil. Dab a couple of drops on a couple of cotton ball and place on either side of pillow. OR use lavender in a bath before bed or I just do that when I start feeling panic. It has really helped me relax!

Have a good night.