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CIPA,

"At the risk of getting hit with a club, how does one "listen to them with compassion to what their needs were in the past and show them we listened" as we "sacrifice without expectations" while being Dark?

Or is going Dark done after that?"

Hey buddy, I should clarify that when I said to listen to them with compassion, I meant while you're in the R. Not separated on the verge of D.

Like sandi says, going Dark is no contact PERIOD.

You two share kids, so that's not going to happen. Treat her like a good friend who was watching your kids for a few days. You can be polite and caring, but not going out of your way to shower her with attention as you had in the past.

For me, sandi recommended I go "dim" when I was separated because my W would always be around. We weren't necessarily talking, but she would always want to hang around me and the girls. So I would invite her to a few things (lunch with all of us, etc. and she often did the same) just not to everything. With each interaction, I made things light and comfortable. In my W's case, she kept saying she wanted to be single, yet would always be around me. So that "pay attention to half of what they say do and none of what they say" really made sense. And that's how we've ended up where we are now. It was her advice and others that helped me and my W get to where we are.

YOUR situation is different. Your W has been talking to you non-stop and blaming you non-stop. So that's where you stop the cycle by not acknowledging her or setting yourself up for her blame.

Thinker,

I know our spouses told us that, but I know it's not true. I think back about the times when she had told me how "handsome" I was or how well we looked together and she had that look of admiration in her eyes. Those were the times and feeling that were real. I'm sure your W had told you the same over the course of your R.

Those were the feelings that were honest and real and not the fogged up emotions they are going through now.

Since your W and mine are so similar, I bet you had the "don't you remember any good times" talk and she said "I don't remember (or have never had) any good times with you."

In case I didn't mention- we didn't recover our marriage. So, alot of my posts come from this perspective.

When I told my H I wanted the divorce he went from never calling me during the day to calling me 10 times a day and having friends call me too. He went from never wanting to touch me unless we were ML to wanting to sit beside me and hold my hand all the time and cuddle after ML. It really creeped me out- because honestly I knew he was only doing it to make me stay.

ALthought I was pretty cool about the fact I wanted a divorce I tried to be as civil as I could be to him without giving him hope. I didn't set out to screw him in the divorce ( and I didn't) because I figured I was the one who wanted it so why should I tried to take him for a ride. We have a very fair agreement. I declined his retirement- even though I could have gotten part of it- stuff like that.

During the divorce he sent me hundreds of nasty emails. I never once replied back anything nasty towards him. And, I still haven't. Well, once- when he told the kids to call the new stepmom "mom" the second day they were married- yeah, I blasted him for that but other than that I've never been verbally harsh or abusive with him.

Have you tried doing things that she thought were attractive in the beginning?

In my situation it's true that I wasn't as attracted to him physically as I should have been in the beginning. I'm long past the fog and I still feel that same way. I was attracted to him- but I wasn't attracted the way I should have. I didn't really enjoy ML with him- he chased me and the harder he chased the more I felt like a sex object. So I was a withholder. I've learned alot since then about men and their connection to ML and I've changed. I'm not like that in my marriage now.

He was a good person- I loved him- and I was very in love with him when we first married- it's just that eventually he took so many deposits from my love bank he just killed it- except the fact that I do love him as a person and as the father of my kids- and I don't wish bad on him.

Yeah, I have to turn it off eventually but it's really hard to not feel that way. I loved my ex's family- and if I could have stayed married to him for their sake I would have but I couldn't. They rarely acknowledge me now unless the kids are around- and I understand but it still hurts.

Even more painful is the fact that my best friend of eleven years dropped me when I started D proceedings- even though she knew about the affair the whole time. Suddenly when others found out she grew more morality?

KF,

Yes you did mention you were getting a D, but I appreciate a woman's POV in all things that deal with "attraction".

I did try to do the same things I had before, but they had no effect. Right now she's not ready to accept anything like that, so I give her space, show her compassion when it's called for and try to go on about my own business. She seems miserable, but that's her choice. I'm trying not to make it mine.

She's always been attractive to me which makes our lack of sex all the more frustrating to me at times. Plus there are the periods that I get insecure and imagine other men hitting on her. That heaped with the comment she made a couple of weeks ago about her not wearing her ring because she doesn't consider us married, really hits below the belt sometimes.

Kitty,

It really sounds like you and my wife are saying the same things

I don't want to interupt Stuck's thread so can you offer what might have made a difference in my thread?

Thanks

Stuck, Catch me up. She had the EA, you two seperated but now in limbo with her at home?
What caused the bomb in your mind? What did she say caused it?

What is working?

Do you know her LLs?

Are you taking care of yourself?

Are you familiar with "Learned Optimism" ?

What else is pertinent to now?

Do you have a Rx for Patiencia?

Cheers

"Stuck, Catch me up. She had the EA, you two seperated but now in limbo with her at home?"

Yep. She's home. We're sleeping in the same bed with our youngest D between us. Things are casual and light between us, nothing too deep. Her wall is still up and has stated as recently as a couple of weeks ago that she doesn't want to be M any more and doesn't wear her ring because she doesn't consider us M.

She still works with the person whom she had the EA with, although not directly any more. Doesn't initiate any hugs or kisses, but also doesn't flinch away from me any more.

Engages in small talk and about the kids. That's it.

She keeps saying how we're not M anymore, she wants to be alone, she wants to live independently, etc. Yet hasn't made a move towards D or finding legal options, or dealing with kids, etc.

"What caused the bomb in your mind?"

To me, the bomb was caused from us not feeding the R after we had our first child. She spent more time with our D than she did with me which lead to resentment on my part which had me treating her bad/guilty/wanting more intimacy, etc. Which she gained resentment for and didn't want to on, perpetuating an ongoing cycle of resentment between the two of us.

"What is working?"
Just being nice to her and carrying on as if nothing had happened before. I try to be as compassionate, fun, trusting, understanding, etc. in front of her, but she really doesn't open up.

"What did she say caused it?"

Take your pick. When she dropped the bomb, she told me it was because she had feelings for the OM (her boss who is M and twice her age, looks like her grandfather literally and was hitting on her going through his own MLC) and the old ILYBNILWY line. I think her bomb was two sentences. When I asked her why, she just said I just don't love you and that was that. About a month later, she told me it was 1) because this OM is much more attractive than me and that's what a M should start with. 2) That I "forced" sex onto her 3 times a week (which I called her out on and pointed out it was more like 3 times over 3 months) 3) That I bragged how I could make her climax over 3 times a night (which I hadn't done since our first month together 17 years ago) 4) That I talked down to her (which was true when I was resenting her (that part I've changed) 5) My hobbies of playing video games (which I did late at night when she and my Ds are asleep so I didn't take time away from my responsibilities with them) 5) A bunch of other things that today she says she can't remember saying.

About 3 months ago, she told me it was because of the little resentments she had for me that she held in. When I asked her like what, she told me like me forgetting to take out the garbage sometimes on garbage day.

But right now it just boils down to she doesn't want to be in a R any more and doesn't want to be married, wants to be independent, etc.

"Do you know her LLs?"
I had to think long and hard about this one in the beginning and I would say her top one is "Words of Affirmation". So I've been complimenting her here and there without it seeming like I was kissing her @$$. She's got trust issues with people in general and men especially. She has no close friends, just her mom and her sister and her dad walked out on her mom when she was 6 (which probably explains her men issues).

Are you taking care of yourself?
Yep better than I had in the past. Working out, playing with kids, started up photography again, etc.

Are you familiar with "Learned Optimism" ?
No what is that?

What else is pertinent to now?
Things were going pretty good about a couple of months ago I had asked her if she wanted to watch tv together after the kids were asleep which we did and had a good time (the first time in over a year). Then a few weeks ago, she started to withdraw again and the timing stunk because I had bought tickets to see a Broadway show with dinner for just the two of us since things were going well. Well that night bombed and she was withdrawn throughout the whole thing.

So now she's slowly coming out of her shell again. And I think it's from me not giving her any pressure at all. Of course I don't want to live like roommates forever either.

Right now my feelings flip flop from thinking that she wants to be in the R, but is scared (of what I'm not sure...shame, commitment, embarrasment, etc.) to thinking that she is just waiting for someone "better" to come along to fill her emotional void then will leave me flat.

My W had always been on the quiet side and not opened up for many things in our R and I've been mindreading. She holds "faithfulness" to be her number one thing in a partner since her dad left, which through me in for a loop as to why she cheated (which she has never acknowledged she did even after saying she kissed him several occassions).

She had told me (when she had the OM) that she finally knew what she wanted. She never told me what that was though. My suspicion is that she was looking for a "father figure". I had always felt that it's what she felt I was and so when things went South for us, she found it in her boss. A letter that she wrote to him about her feelings sounded more like a high school girl rather than a mature woman. She wants someone who can "take care of her" emotionally, monetarily, etc.

"Do you have a Rx for Patiencia?"
Yep it keeps getting re-filled. My other friend offered me another prescription to deal with things... "Fukitol"

Hope that is enough info : )

What do you think?

Oh and I have extra doses of "Fukitol" if anyone wants.