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Mind-reading or not, I think this is pretty insightful. From my POV, WAS "needs" the LBS to remain "the same." The only way that ditching the marriage makes sense.

If you can follow the abstract logic here [and I mean that in the "I tend to be confusing" sense and not the "you're not that smart" sense] -- I'm the Walkaway. The M is losing "something" for me. I've "grown" out of it. "I love him/her but I'm not in love." Yada yada.

None of that script makes emotional sense if LBS is changing. Because, as MWD points out, change one thing in the inter-personal dynamic and lots of other things change, too.

But those changes torque WAS's reasoning (and rationale) all out of specs. Which is why we hear "wait a minute, I thought...." and "now you do X," and the like.

Good Christian Man Friend, who is also an avid consumer of techno-thriller books, used an example you "might" appreciate. In "The Hunt For Red October," in the story's climax the two boats -- Dallas and Red October -- sort each other out by pinging. GCMF said that, now that you've started down your new path SP old boy, WAW is not getting the "return ping" that she expects. Indeed, that she NEEDS.

And that's disconcerting. Because if the status-quo has changed, what is she to make of all the actions she's taken -- and plans to take but has yet to take -- that are predicated upon that SQ?

Cognitive Dissonance. I forget who brought that up in one of my earlier threads. But I can see why it's important -- indeed, though it's never made explicit, it's at the heart of the DB technology.

Got the image and the analogy - I spent 5 years in that world

Moral of the story stop "pinging" and start living like you are meant to.

As I read others threads, I keep finding pearls that apply to my sitch - the beauty of the boards

DanceQueen posted the following on Puppy's Thread on May 14th. It didn't seem to ring so true for Puppy, but it sure hits home with me.



My W really does not want to get divorced. She does not want to disrupt her life or our family or our kids, but...

...She is facing her own mortality with numerous sicknesses and deaths within her family.

...she has emotionally divorced me and avoids intimacy

...her primary complaints are that she feels no attraction and that our sex is "empty".

Reading Schnarch is really helping me understand the root causes and showing me where I will have to focus in any future R that I have.

Right now, however, I have to get past the emotional divorce

Thinker,

Schnarch has been a big eye opener to me too. I've realized the sitch can make or break intimacy before it even starts and when you change your dynamics for the better, the intimacy will improve. Remove the negative weight of power/control issues, anger, sadness, and throw two independent and willing adults together and see what happens.

There was nothing wrong with either one of us; just the weight of too much baggage. Future rolls-in-the-hay will prove it.

I'm starting to think that couples should be encouraged to read Schnarch early - before the Weight of the emotional baggage gets too heavy (2 copies given as a wedding present??).

But then, would anyone really understand it until they have reached the crisis point in their R? I'm not sure.

A book like that requires a read every few years as life and the relationship changes. And each time the readers will understand something different.

gucci loafer.......now he is good!

Thinker, talking about low self esteem......my H did not have a lot of high esteem before we M, but he covered it up a lot. I heard his aunt say that he did not have a lot of self confidence, and it kind of surprised me. I never saw that side of him before we M. I saw him as being the strong, silent type. (Mostly, silent!) However, what little esteem he had, I know I must have knock it totally out of him b/c I have said some terrible things to him over the years....just trying to make him "talk" to me. It was as if he pushed me to be so blunt b/c I was trying to make him understand my POV, but I'm not sure he ever did. Maybe it is the differences between the sexes....I don't know. Maybe his quiet personality was not what I thought I was seeing!

A man who acts cocky, a "hotshot", loud, or a know-it-all......any of those types of personalities just turns most women off. It comes across a "fake", immature, or "too much"... and if a female has any age or maturity at all, she will spot this immediately and walk away. A man with a healthy high esteem comes across as being very confident and strong and it is the most sexy thing a man can be to a woman.....IMHO. The point is, that he does not have to "prove" anything......and he knows it! That message is what women preceive. I have made the statement before.....but that is what attracted me to my OM. It was not his looks, necessarily, but the confidence I saw. As we talked, I picked up on his personlity, etc., but that was the first thing that attracted me to him. So, makes you wonder.....doesn't it.....since maybe my H did not have what I saw in the OM?

Since you like to read, maybe it would help you to find the right type of books to help build that self esteem. Maybe you have already tried that..... I know it took me a long time to gain a better esteem and one thing that helped was doing things that made me feel good about myself. Accomplishing certain tasks or goals, doing something new and discovering that I wasn't half bad at it, just things like that helped me in my personal life. I was blessed to have some doors open for me in employment that...when I was younger....I would not have thought I could have done the job......but I kind of bluffed my way through the beginning and learned that I could do the job. That gave me growth, and after that--I knew I could do about anything I set my mind to do. It may take somebody teaching me or a hands on type of situation, but give me time....and I will learn. That makes one feel good about themselves.

I also learned that I was my own worst enemy when I was younger. That type of thinking is self destructive! I cannot express that strong enough to you. I first had to prove to myself that I could do certain things, then I had to learn to like myself. I still have to work on that one, b/c I have too high of a standard for "Sandi" and don't think I could ever reach it. But, as I grow older, I realize that I am not being realistic in my standards.

I suppose what I'm trying to encourage you here is to learn to like yourself. Become a friend to yourself and like who & what you are. Then try new things to see what you can do. It may surprise you. Be sure to keep doing the things you know is "your" talent and that you are good at doing and enjoy doing it! You know, sometimes we don't recognize our own talent b/c it feels so "natural" to us that we don't see it as being a talent until another person tells us that we are good at doing.....whatever. (Wheee, that was a long sentence!....not my talent.... )

It is hard gaining higher self esteem, but I do believe it is possible b/c I have done it! My father used to tell me when I was a child that I had an inferiority complex. I wasn't quite sure what it meant, but I was sure I didn't like it! He was right, of course.....I had a huge one! I believe it is something that happens to us probably when we are very young, but I'm no authority. It wants to stick with us regardless of when it hits us.

Anyway, I just wanted to try to encourage you not to give up and keep working on yourself....for yourself (not anybody else!), okay? You are a good person who were like the rest of us......imperfect. What a boring place this board would be if we are were perfect...huh?

You take care,
Sandi

Thanks for your continued encouragement Sandi, It really does help.

One of the best things about the boards is that they are a safe place to talk through ideas and open up - even if it is just journaling.

So the name of opening up and journaling honestly, here goes...

------

Like your description of your husband, I have a deep seated feeling of inadequacy that is covered up by a shell. Acquaintances have described me as being cool, confident, focused and driven - sometimes as silent and sometimes even as aloof and dismissive. This is a protective layer that I have built up over a long time.

I also have a huge amount of confidence in my own abilities - probably too much at some times. I have always thought that I could do anything, learn anything, accomplish anything that I wanted to, and I have always been successful in school, the military, as a professional executive, etc.

My toxic feelings of inadequacy show up and hit me in social situations - mingling, small talk in a bar, party games, flirting and dating. It has taken me a long time to work through and understand where this is coming from and realize that I have to confront it, but put me in an unfamiliar social situation and all the sudden I am a scared little boy again - feeling that I'm not good enough, that I'm being judged, and that I'm going to get rejected. It hats always felt strange to me that I can stand up and give a speech to a thousand people (even in a foreign language) and not feel uncomfortable, but playing charades at a cocktail party is a nightmare to me. It's the difference between me with and without my armor.

These fears have lead me to bury myself in academics, the military, work, individual athletics, backpacking, rock climbing and cold-water night-time scuba diving -- anything where I could prove myself against one ridiculously hard challenge after another while avoiding social risks. I kept to small groups of friends - mostly related to work or activities - and maintained long term relationships with a small number of women, each of whom pursued me or from whom I thought I had little risk of rejection.

Needless to say, I conducted those relationships in a fairly risk-adverse manner, and they each died of boredom.

When I got married to my W, I never shifted my emphasis away from my work and to my W and our R. I couldn't - it was my work that was propping up my self esteem. My W felt it and felt neglected. And frankly, she was right. At that time in my life I was not able to give her the focus that she needed. She pulled away and I felt it - and suddenly here comes the little boy with his fears of rejection again. For years, I have been simultaneously on top of the world at work, and tiptoeing on eggshells at home.

----

It has taken me a lot of "Thinking", a ton of emotional pain, lots of IC and a small mountain of self-help books to really understand this. I know who that little boy is and where the feelings of inadequacy and fear of rejection come from - and frankly they are all bullsh*t . They may have made sense at the time -- I was a 4-year old with a missing father and an emotionally withdrawn mother and whose leg brace kept him from keeping up with the other kids on the playground -- but they are completely irrelevant today!

That's not me any more!

I know that now!

But the gut level emotional reactions still show up, and these are the emotions that are preventing me from really enjoying my life. To paraphrase Coach, they are preventing me from being the best man that I can be.

And that's the WORK that I need to do. And that's the work I am doing.

Believe me, it's not easy.

Well, we're off on a family vacation for the next week, so I (hopefully) won't be posting much from now until the beginning of June.

The vacation almost got called off during our blowups and backslide last week, but now I'll be DBing my *ss off. I packed my best clothes and my most positive attitude. This vacation is supposed to be relaxation and low stress fun with the kids, and I have it clear in my mind that her LL is Quality Time .

No R Discussions, no fights, no pressure.

Focus on the kids, be outgoing, meet new people

relax, laugh and have fun.

That's my plan and I'm sticking to it!