Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers Over the Shock - Detaching and GALing 3

Now I am sitting here thinking. What I have been doing is not working, so what do I need to do differently.

I need to keep working on myself, per the discussions yesterday. No change there - that is for me, not her or the R.

I am not sure how to proceed living in a house together with a W who refuses to be either open or honest; who will neither work with me on the R, nor fully give up contact with OM, nor even admit that she is doing anything wrong.

Am I back to trying to bust the A -- Again!

This seems to be how it goes...a sudden change in direction and I am going to need some help.

She was acting weird, so I began to think, and then began to look.

I found that in the past 10 days there has been a sudden resurgence of both text messages and calls to OM. From none the month before, to the point where on one day a week ago there were 5 texts and 3 calls between them.

The most recent call and text were on Mothers day - just minutes after she strangely drove off in a bit of a hurry and without much explanation.

I can only believe that there is more behind the sudden texts - some other means of communication. Installed the keylogger again because I thought she was probably emailing him and then immediately erasing the evidence. I was going to be patient, gather evidence, see what was really going on, and figure out what to do...

But then the kicker!!!!

My W came home, went straight to her computer, and ran a search for and found the keylogger. She then confronted me with that...!

Guilty Conscience???

We had a blow up in which she was lying through her teeth. I had only found one of the texts and one of the calls at that point, so I confronted her with them and she tried to claim that those were "accidents". She also went down the tired old path of "There is nothing going on, the problems between us have nothing to do with him, etc..."

She was already on her way out the door with the kids when the blowup started, so is gone now, but will be back later.

She promised to talk later and I am going to confront her with her lies.

Puppy! Gucci! Sandi! All! I may need your help here!

Thanks

Thinker

I'm taking my son to a Computer Seminar tomorrow, and he was supposed to take W's computer, but she called me all in a huff asking why he couldn't use my computer.
"Well, because last time he used yours, and he has all the software loaded on it."

'That won't work for me, I need my computer tomorrow, and I won't see him after you guys get back home, so can he use yours?"

"Only if I can come over tonight and work with S to get it set up"

"Let me think on that and get back to you"

10 minutes later S calls and asks if I can come over and help him set up his project on my computer. "Have you asked Mom if it's alright for me to come over and do that". "Yeah, she told me to call you"... passive aggressive much?

After reading your posts, I think she might not want me having access to her computer for fear that I may put a keylogger on it - not that there's OM (I don't think) but I wouldn't be surprised to find communications with a L, or husband bashing with her 2 best friends, one who separated from her H the same week as W did, and the other who is a Widow for the past 2 years and living the happy single life.

Well, we talked. We're back at step one. No trust, no R, no Sex.

Dammit.

No words of wisdom, just a cyber hug.

This may not be at the forefront of your concerns at the moment ... but there's a reason a lot of us have a long series of lightbulb moments while reading Schnarch.

Whatever happens in your marriage, thinking and working the differentiation/self-soothing system can only improve your whole life in the long run. Or at least so I have found.

Have you gotten to the "tolerating pain for growth" part yet? (insert wry grin ........)

Hi Thinker. I had not given up on you but my computer has been up and down lately. I do feel that most of the time I was repeating my same advice, but still I wanted you to know that I was here in your corner pulling for you.

As I was catching up on the stitch, I saw some places that I was concerned about b/c you were still pursuing! For an example, trying to get her to take that R test about LL (I think). She was letting you know in her WAW's way that she did NOT want to take it and you pushed. Why?

You also proceeded with the ILY's when I am pretty sure I tried to tell you not to do that b/c it is huge pressure on a AWAW. But, you kept doing it! Makes me want to shake you until your teeth rattle!

I think I told you once before that the fact she was just showing up at the MC was very much to expect of her. She was still battling with those mixed up confussed emotions of the WAW. I don't know that she ever broke full contact with the OM, but if she did.......I am afraid she felt pushed right back toward him.

Now, Thinker, I am saying this as if I was your sister or mother b/c it is "you" that I have to talk to.....not your wife, okay? Being a woman, I get very frustrated at how men think.......just as I know you men feel the same by the way women think. So, that is why we must try to help each other here on the board. Maybe the MC was encouraging you to do all of those things with your wife. I am SURE that when she approached you to ML that must have really blown you away! However, I was not one bit surprised that she was distant the very next day. But, even though your actions were correct.......your thoughts were conflicted (which I can understand......but it is that way with all the AWAS). Perhaps it was the physical need she had......and I'm sure that is not what you want to hear, but on the other hand.....maybe she was wanting to see for herself if she felt "anything" for you while ML. Especially when thoughts of the OM is still very alive in her brain.......she may have been "testing" herself (not you) as to how she felt.

One thing she kept bringing up that reminded me much of my H and his lack of "concern" for our R in our younger years, was how you were always "acting" as if everything was just great and you were so happy all the time. It is as if this is getting on her nerves and perhaps you are over-killing the PMA. You see, in my own stitch years ago, I would get so desparate that a time or two I would seek out my parents to talk to them about my MR. Once I even asked my dad to come talk to us. Well, guess what? My H actually sat there and acted as if we did not have a problem in this world and had a smile on his face. I can look back at it now and see where it may have been a male ego thing since it was my father coming over to "talk" to us, but still I was furious at my H's behavior. It was all very serious to me and my H acted as if it was all in my mind. He did not "say" that (and it's a good thing he didn't) but his actions were saying as much. So, I am wondering if your W is upset that you are going around acting as if everything is simply lovely when she is thinking to herself, "Can't he see that I want to walk out that door and never come back?" So, in some ways, it adds more anger and frustration to her.

Now, for your side of it. You are trying so very, very hard to save this M and bust a D. You deserve a gold star for your endurance..... It takes a very special person to know that his wife is involved with another man and is still willing to try to save his M. You have gone to MC and that is more than my H would do! You are the one truly working hard. She may "feel" that she is working, and in her way......she is trying, but she's not there yet. Obviously, she has had a very serious backslide......if she ever let the OM go at all.

If the two of you have talked and now you feel it is back to square one........that is still very much more than what a lot of couples get. So, it is not over! To me, I see her saying that you still have a "chance". To me, I see her not knowing absolutely (still) what she wants to do. As long as she does not know absolutely what she wants to do about leaving or staying.......and you can continue to endure and work.....then there is still "hope".

I am strongly.....STRONGLY.....advising you not to discuss anything about your M, OM, R.........NOTHING for a long time. Why? (Must I say it again?) PRESSURE! The more pressure she feels......the more likely she will run. No, it is not fair to you! It never was! However, this is not about fairness and never has been. It is not all about what is the "right" thing to do (even though that might have been what kept her from leaving), but it has to do with how much she can handle and for how long. That is what you have to constantly remember.

I almost freaked when you asked if it was time to move into "Piecing"! I thought you must be kidding. Then you said something about not being a "Newcomer" any longer. Don't worry about that status of "newcomer", but you are certainly not ready for Piecing. In fact, as you have stated, you have to start all over again. And, Thinker......that is how you must do this......b/c it was not just her that messed up.....you did also. You pressured her! You kept pressuring her! To you, it has seem like a long time and you feel that things should be moving right along in a positive direction. However, you tried to "hurry" it along. It will not work like that. You must not try to assist the process that SHE HAS TO WORK THROUGH!

If you return to the MC.......I believe if it were me......I would go alone the first time and then decide if you will continue. I really feel that the MC got to be too much pressure and a souce of anger for her b/c of how she would react to "your" actions there. It did not make her feel better. See what I mean? Unless she is the one to say something about returning to the MC, I would not mention it to her. I am thinking maybe she needs to go along for a while and you should not be with her. If you want to continue, then okay, but unless she seems very willing and "wanting" to go together.......I just don't know that right now is good. She may need a couple of weeks or more. I know that some may strongly disagree with me, but I am trying to remember just how "I" felt. Although, I was the one who originally wanted the both of us to go to MC....when my H would not agree, it caused me to "backslide" even worse. So, don't apply any pressure about the MC or anything else. You need to distant yourself as much as you can for a few days to let the smoke settle. As I told another poster last night, I used to think that confronting issues were the way to handle everything.....but as the years have gone by, I have learned that "time" has to do its own work and often does a better job than confrontation will do if you step in too early. Timing is the secret.

In your hard, hard efforts at showing a PMA, I believe you were putting a lot of pressure on yourself. That along can become very stressful and too much to bear for a person after so much time goes by and not seeing what they "want" to see as the end result of their work. I feel that was part of your blow-up....together with learning about the contact with the OM. This time around, why not try to be more casual and not apply so much pressure that you get to the point you are breaking down from the burden of it?

Take care,
Sandi

Thanks Kettricken,

I needed exactly that support in order to get back into the book.

Pain it is - I'm going to post another entry with the details of the painful shock.

Thanks for the much needed cyber hug

Thanks Sandi, I really do appreciate the support and advice - and of course, you are right, I was applying pressure.

I'd like to take the time later to respond to your post carefully. but right now, I am instead going to post some details of last nights discussion - because of course the truth is even stranger than I thought...

So here are the strange details of last nights discussion, which consisted of 3 parts:
1) my blow up about OM
2) Her talking about our R
3) Her coming clean with a painful question for me!!!!

1) The discussion started here with me saying that more than anything what I really wanted was honesty and an end to deceit. I asked her what was going on with OM and she denied ever talking to him, and then denied texting him, and then said she did it only once, and then (when I showed her the phone records) said "I don't remember, maybe I did" - etc. I was really annoyed because she was lying through her teeth the whole time (how could she "forget" that she called him 3 times and texted him 4 times in one night less than a week ago??). The conversation was going no where, and she was insisting that OM was not any part of our problems. I agreed to change the subject.

2) My W gave her analysis of our R. Being in the health field, she used a health analogy and said "In the health of a person, there are some things which you can control - diet, exercize, etc. and there are some things that are genetic. I believe that in our R, the problems are genetic - they can't be changed or fixed. With some prompting from me, she then listed them as she saw it:

• The dynamic between us is bad and tense. We don't relate well to one another
  
• There is no laughter or mirth in our relationshiop
  
• When we have sex it is "Empty". I asked for clarification and she said there was no passion and although there were plenty of orgasms, it was mechanical.

Now, I don't agree with any of these, and I agreed with her on them last night. The dynamic is bad - we don't talk well, neither of us listens well, neither of us is good at expressing ourselves, there is a lot of tension in the air. As for the laughter, it is almost like she won't allow it - if I crack a joke or mess around she squelches me like a wet blanket. And the sex really has been passionless. Skillful, physical, but passionless. I have really missed it as well.

Where we disagree is on whether these things are changeable. She feels 100% that they are not. She also said she felt like all of my changes, GAL activites, IC, etc - everything - is an attempt to convince her that it can be changed.

3) With that we moved into part 3 of the discussion - One that really blew me away.

After lots of "I Can't tell you"'s and "I don't want to hurt you"'s, my W opened up with something that was eating her alive.

She had been watching me very carefully and she was VERY scared and confused.

• I was suddenly dressing better and obviously caring for my appearance
  
• I started wearing cologne
  
• I was spending lots of time out with my male friends
  
• I was going to IC and not talking about what I was talking about there
  
• I had grown a goatee (since shaved off)
  
• I was back in contact with some of my close friends from along time ago
  
• I was acting happy and doing silly things and when she asked me about it, said (truthfully) that the IC was really helping me to not be "so repressed"

She took all of this, combined it with our "Empty" sex life and some derogatory comments that OM made to me during the EA, and came to the conclusion:

"Oh My God! My Husband is GAY and is now coming out of the closet. He's going to leave me for another man!"


WHAT!!!


She explained that it has really been worrying her, and that she does not know how she would handle that, and that she did not want to tell me or ask me because she knew that I would get hurt and angry.

Then she said that she wanted to try to find out on her own without asking me, so the reason she had been frantically trying to reach the OM. She said all of her calls to him had been attempts by her to reach out - reaching his voice mail or him when he did not want to talk. She said she had just wanted to talk to him about what he had meant behind his comments and what he had seen that had made him say that, etc.

So this all left me in a bit of shock - Hurt and Angry!

I can summarize the rest of the conversation as follows:
- I assured her that I am very familiar with my own sexuality, and that women excite me and men do not.
- I told her that the IC was about me saying, doing, or asking what I wanted, rather than holding back. It was not about me exploring my sexuality.
- I told her that I was angry and that it was a hurtful thing, but that most of all I was hurt that when she had personal questions about me and my sexuality, she wanted to ask OM about it rather than just asking me. I also said that I thought he was a j*ck*ss for openly questioning a mans sexuality to his wife. (I mean, what kind of conversation were they having!!)

- She got defensive "see I told you that you would be hurt and angry, this is why I didn't want to talk to you about it"

- I told her "yes, it was hurtful, and I am hurt and angry. Just let me have that. Let me be angry. I'll get over it. I am still glad that you told me, because as much as it hurts, not talking about this sort of thing is even worse"


So now we are giving each other a lot of space. I disappeared for most of the morning and went for a long (55 mile) bike ride. She is now out with S4 at a birthday party.

We agreed that we are still going on our planned family vacation week after next - "to try to relax and make it fun for the boys"

Needless to say, my ego took quite a blow from this.

I got this one too! In fact she mentioned that when she very first saw me all those years ago, she was hesitant to talk because she thought, "He's cute but maybe he's gay." Oh great.

I'm not a totally macho, truck-drivin', six-packs and gun-racks kinda guy but I know what I am. It can be easy for them to start connecting the wrong dots. The sex it wasn't good because you were never attracted to me or any other woman. You like clothes and you're spending time alone...hmmm... Mostly I think they want to believe it because it provides a great excuse and makes letting go easier. Nothing wrong on my side; husband plays for the other team.

She brought this up in front of a MC. He was all encouraging, "There's nothing wrong with that. Maybe you need to explore." True, there's nothing wrong with that, I have gay friends. You're connecting the wrong dots.

In fact it even messed me up for a while. Was I repressed or something? Nahhh...

Don't let it bother you.