JCJ, thank you SO MUCH for your post. I was reading it with disbelief. He has no idea why he left you?? It's really amazing that WAS makes these life-changing decisions for no apparent reason. I can't find the compassion to understand yet. I need to work on that.
I am so glad that you were so brave in bringing up the D. I hope he takes a second look and see the great person that you are. It also bodes well that he didn't cheat on you while living with you (unlike my H). Do you think he sent you the followup e-mail because he can't live with himself with being the 'bad guy' in the breakup? And that he is hugely relieved that you didn't cast him in that role?
I keep thinking to myself, I can get over the betrayal, I can get over the blame, but can I get over the truth? The truth was I didn't give just cause for my H to cheat on me multiple times or to leave me. But if he cannot admit that ever, can I get over it?
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
First session with our counsellor is this Thursday. It's the first time my H, our IC (same person) and I will be sitting together in the same room. I am so worked up over it that I gave myself a migraine. Need to relax and not get so stressed.
I am really really afraid that H will dump me once and for all (in person, not through IC) but at the same time I AM expecting the worst. I know that EVENTUALLY I will be all right but still this whole process is stressful and it's not a pleasant thing to go through.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
Ok, you need to relax and be cool, what can you do that can help you achieve this? Remember, you spend every weekend with this guy (I think?!), think of it that way.
It is fine to prepare for the worst but not to expect it; you have read what Michelle says about the self-fulfilling prophecy? If ever you needed to act as if the time is now
From what I have read about other DBers that have gone for counselling with their h's it is your chance to show that you can listen to him. DBust to the max i.e. don't defend yourself, this may be a chance for you to get some information.
I wouldn't look at this as the 'be all and end all' or the end, it is part of the process, whatever that process is.
I understand your stress and nerves though. However what is your plan for the meeting, how are you to going to act?
What you said to me about my h... My DB coach said that the general rule with WAS is that women build up a huge case against their h and when they leave they are angry and have made up their mind. With WAH's they often leave on a whim and do their thinking afterwards which is often why they are so quiet, they just can't give answers.
I understand why my h left, he had just gone through a life changing illness very young and I don't think he has processed it all yet, plus that summer I was acting like a bit of an idiot. I have since stopped and I actually really like that he doesn't know why he left because I have managed, through consistent DBing to break down the perceptions of me that he left with. Sorry, I am an eternal optimist!!
My DB coach said a major characteristic of WAH's is their guilt and feeling like the bad person. That is often why they can't talk about personal stuff because of their guilt and shame. It is quite a huge hurdle to get over, just something to bear in mind during your counselling.
Your husband cheating was not your fault. I think with my h, he may not have been having a PA but I strongly suspect an EA. She was around when I left, I know that much!
I accept 50% of the things that were failing in our marriage but I hold him 100% responsible for leaving and for his subsequent actions. I have forgiven him though, I can't seem to help it.
Thanks JCJ, you reminded me of some very good points that I will keep close to my chest when I walk into the Counsellor's office. I will shut up and LISTEN. Don't get drawn into an argument of what happened. His thinking and timeline is bound to be skewed as he is justifying his A.
Thanks also for telling me what DB coach said, I know my H feels extremely guilty and shameful but I didn't know that was why he can't talk to me about personal stuff, it makes a whole lot of sense though. I just thought he hated me and want to be as far away as possible.
Coincidence! My H went through a life-threatening illness as well!!!!! I found out about a ONS right before he went into hospital but was SO relieved when he recovered. He couldn't handle it, the illness, the ONS (possibly EA and PA), me being the caregiver, me being the hurt spouse etc. etc. He went into a deeper depression. He has been slightly depressed for a few years, I think. Hindsight is 20/20.
It was overload and he went for the first thing that made him feel good, OW!! But I think H is slowly slowly slowly realizing that the endorphins are wearing off his R with OW as well because lately he is looking depressed again. I am kind of glad because I was hoping he would realize that escaping into another R won't solve his own internal problems and it certainly didn't solve his R problems with kids or obviously, his R problems with me or his R problems with his dad etc. It just created another messy R to deal with!!!
My plan for the IC session is: To listen To tell H what I DO like about him To show that I am serious about moving away To show my happy, confident self (I will not be 'victim') To sort out finances and such
What do you think?
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
Pm, I'm so glad I found you on the boards. I have not really come across many stories where illness came into play.
I don't underestimate what a huge factor I think this played in our marriage. I think it instigated a crisis in my h, and also in me, and that played out through our relationship. He chose a typical flight response and chose to run away rather than face things. However, that doesn't mean that they don't feel huge guilt and shame over their actions and that guilt and shame immobilizes them. They don't know what to do.
Think of things from their point of view, and I can only guess because I am not him/ them.
- They ran out on their commitments of marriage and in your case children (which heaps a whole load of extra guilt!). - We cared for them when they needed us. Even though it goes without saying that we would do this it also throws the relationship out of whack. They may feel like they have a huge debt to repay which equates to pressure. - When you become a care-giver, as women we tend to become motherly. That is not what they want in a wife. I know that after h was better, I found it very hard to get out of the habit of mothering him. Especially when I saw him going through his turmoil after leaving, I wanted to make it all better. The big thing for me was realising that I can't and shouldn't make it better, it is his journey. ANd most importantly mothering isn't attractive.
What does that all equate to = guilt and pressure.
This marriage counseling is an opportunity for your h to explore his feelings but remember he will feel pressured to do so. Make sure you are exerting no pressure on him and the key, I feel, is as you have rightly said, to zip it and listen
Before my h even opened up into that short conversation I spent ages reducing guilt. His guilt won't let him handle seeing you suffer. So I made sure I looked good (men are visual), I listened to him, I exerted no pressure on him and I was light and upbeat, Although in my case I have a tendancy to cry which I really need to work on!!
I like your ideas for your IC.
I would take this first session to just see how the ground lies. So I would concentrate on listening, even if he seems not to be talking. Answer the counselors questions but don't accuse your H.
I would focus on these points
-To listen -To show my happy, confident self (I will not be 'victim') -To sort out finances and such
The reason I have not mentioned the others is that you can show h what you like about him in your actions towards him rather than tell him. You can do this but praising, being encouraging and supporting and showing appreciation. Telling him will just slide off his back.
Secondly about moving away, this will put pressure on him to 'talk' which will probably mean he won't. If you allow things to progress organically by physically carrying on with your plans to move then that will send out a far stronger message than if you merely state it which puts him on the spot.
Thanks for posting. I like your analysis of what is happened with their illnesses. I think it was spot on for my H as well. He didn't see it coming, it caught him offguard and he panicked. I didn't help things when I worried about him and mothered him, just like you. I was also feeling very insecure as I had just found out that he had a 'ONS' from which I contracted a STD. That's how I found out! So the insecurity of my M plus the worrying of the mothering turned me into a woman I didn't like. Over-protective, nagging. I am not usually like that.
What it doesn't explain is why he went for the ONS stand to begine with, it must have been that he was unhappy. Our IC seem to think that because he had lack of parenting, he expects 130% from me, unbeknownst to me. I was not living up to par so he felt disappointed. Unloved and unappreciated. Not that he ever voiced these, my H is pretty quiet about his feelings, especially negative ones. He likes to pretend they are not there ( I think that's how he dealth with his parents' divorce).
So we are here now, I have also tried very hard to look good, reduce guilt, live my own life, make the kids happy and have him see his happy family as we really are. But I know for a fact that he feels extreme guilt and shame.
Actually the part about telling h what I like about him was suggested by IC. I don't think it would hurt as I think H pretty much assumes that I hate his guts because of what he did. So I DO think that he needs to know that I don't feel that way about him. For whatever reason, I still care for him ( I won't say ILU) and I can still see good qualities in him. I think his self-esteem is extremely low at the moment. (BTW, I think that's why he and OW get along so well. Low self-esteem).
I am reminding myself to keep quiet and LISTEN.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
Yep, the ONS was a pretty low act, I see why you struggle for forgiveness there especially with the repercussions.
It could have been there was something he was missing. I'm sure you have probably, like we all have, done some pretty thorough self-examination. Or it could have just happened, a snap bad decision. There is no excuse though.
My H does the same thing of, if you don't voice it, it isn't happening. Infuriating isn't it! He lies by omission. I had to find out about ow on Facebook and even when I confronted him by email he still never admitted it. From what I have read of your thread you are doing so well in yourself.
On reflection from what you have said about telling your H perhaps you are right. My H has reacted much better from when I told him it was ok and I wasn't angry. I had to wait till he was able to 'hear' it though and judge when that time would be. If I had said it any sooner or in another context it wouldn't have had the same affect.
My DB coach also said that about H and ow. It was something like the ow is on his level at the moment and the bar is pretty low. He feels he doesn't deserve better.
25yearsmlc says 'be the woman only a fool would leave'. This is what I am trying to be. I see this as a win win situation. My H is still deeply involved with ow but I see there are chinks of light. I see lots of light in your situation and I think you are going to totally make the most of this counselling oppertunity. Keep up your PMA!
My H is like your H, a bit passive-agressive when they get angry. So my H lies by omission too, sometimes he outright lies as well, but mostly by omission. He thinks that omission isn't really lying and that white lies are lying either.
I like what you DB coach said about H and OW. I know he feels he doesn't deserve his kids - not sure about deserving me. But I know he knows me quite well and he knows that I am a pretty upright person so maybe he just thinks we are not a good fit.
I am going to dress to kill at the Counselling session tomorrow. I did my own nails tonight, going to put on a pretty dress, do my own hair and look FABULOUS! He won't know what hit him. I am going to look like a 'woman only a fool would leave'. He he.
Most of the time I ask myself if I could forgive H, I answer yes, I can forgive him because I really really love him. Most of the time. But then there are some dark times when I think I just can't understand his actions. I doesn't make any sense to me and I ask to myself, would I take him back and I wonder...
Would I be a fool to take him back? Once a cheat, always a cheat, they say. I think it is partly true. If they don't fix what the problem is or find what they are seeking, then they will repeat the cycle.
So I would have to say that I would take him back if I saw some real changes, some real growth and development. For him to have a realization of what he was looking for, of what would REALLY make him happy. If he was able to do that, yes, I can accept him again.
If not, if there is no growth and no real understanding and he is bumbling again and unhappy then I guess the chance of a relapse of his betraying ways would be highly likely.
Am I a bad person for not welcoming him back unconditionally? Shouldn't we love our spouses unconditionally? Am I being too 'logical' and not soft-hearted enough?
Oh well, I really don't need to think of this hypothetical question. He's not asking to come back and won't be for quite awhile I imagine.
But JCJ, you are right regarding the illness affecting his personality. I have been thinking about it for the last two days. Why is it that some people who go through a serious illness come out feeling a need to bond with their family, to not waste anymore of their life, to find real meaning to their life. Then there is my H, who was totally depressed eventhough he survived a near-death experience, who detached himself from wife and family, who was sleepwalking through life and who refuse to take care of himself? He did the opposite of embracing life. Why is that?
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09
Sorry I've not posted on your thread for a while. I have been reading it daily though and seeing that you have been getting some wonderful advice. As I'm sure you've noticed in my thread, I've been going through some inner turmoil once again and didn't want to bring my negativity over to you. I do feel as though it's lifting now though thanks to the help of your posts and others who have been kind enough to keep up with my thread.
I truly hope your counselling session goes well tomorrow. One thing I would ask about though is what you said about dressing to kill. Where I agree that you should look a million dollars when you go to your session, I think it may be a mistake if you dress as though you are going on a big night out. I'm sure that's not what you meant but thought I should say it anyway. You don't want to be too obvious in looking like you're dressing that way for his benefit. That could be seen as a type of pursuing I'd imagine.
I truly don't feel you'd be a fool to take your H back. If you were, everyone on this site would be a fool too. You've already shown that you take responsibility for your part in the breakdown of your M as most of us have. What most of us on here need though is another chance to show that we can do it differently next time. We all must be careful not to slip back in to our old ways though if presented with that chance. If there's one thing I've noticed about most of the posters on here it's that we've all learned some very hard lessons about ourselves and relationships in general. If we are to succeed in finding our M's again, we have to always remember these lessons.
I think you're spot on in your assessment of the 'Once a cheat, always a cheat' saying. I think that applies mainly to people who immediately forgive those that cheated and let them get away with it without any consequences. If someone can get away with it once, they'll try it again. I agree that there has to be an underlying problem that must be fixed before we can break that cycle.
You're most definitely not a bad person for not welcoming him back unconditionally. I do believe however that if you do get him back it has to be starting from scratch. There can be no resentment from past transgressions. That'll just lead to its own set of complicated issues and have you right back here again. When your H does come back, you'll never rid him of his guilt for what he's done but you can help him to live with it by being comlpetely non-judgemental about it.
I wish you the best of luck for tomorrow PM. My thoughts will be with you.
Kev X
Me: 32, Wife: 22 Son: 2 Married: 2 years Separated: January 5th 2009
Sometimes you have to become lost before you can find yourself.
You bring so much to my situation, you just don't know. Please don't think that you would bring me down just because you are running on a low cycle!!!! Please please keep posting if you have time. I really appreciate it and look what you wrote today. It's wonderful!
Sorry abt the confusion, I need to define 'dress to kill', I meant it in the appropriate sense. We are seeing a counsellor, not going to a night club, so I will probably be wearing a nice sundress, not spandex mini. He he. I meant I will be looking fresh and happy and relaxed. That I will smell nice and look flushed with confidence. That is my goal.
Thanks also for the 'cheat' advice. You are right, I did forgive him too fast the first time, when I found out about the ONS. But then he did come down with a life-threatening illness right after so I didn't really delve deep into our emotions while he was in ICU. But that is not an excuse. Ijust think he was avoidant and I didn't want to dig more dirt. I guess, it was already messy and I didn't have what it took to deal with it.
And then I LOVE what you wrote about 'I will never rid him of guilt for what he's done but I can help him to live with it by being completly non-judgemental about it.' I will start this today and put it in action. I will remember this sentence for the rest of my life.
Thanks Kev.
Feel free to write me anytime, whether you are feeling up or down.
Me:39 H:40 S:9 D:7 First Bomb ONS:June 07 Second Bomb OW: March 08 Separated: March 08 M:15 yrs T:18 yrs H deep into A with OW Achieved ACCEPTANCE May 30, 09