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I don't think you should mention anything about his reasons for being in the bar or who he may have been with. I think you should just say something about the amount and that you're worried it's not something that you can afford. Possibly bring up canceling that account and getting one of your own. It'll take a lot of stress off of you in the long run not only financially but you won't have the statements making you wonder who he's with and what he's doing.

Sandi,
Thanks so much for posting. I hope you are feeling better. I've had one of those roller coaster days, but it's ending well. H called me this morning just to chat. I think it's a good sign when that happens.

He was scheduled to come over tonight to finalize taxes (yes, he left that undone so I did it and DIDN'T even complain - that was difficult!). He called when he was on his way and I was very positive. He called back 15 minutes later to say he was going to stop by to have one beer with the old "gang" (the ladies from last job) on his way. I was doing great until he said he would be at the house by 8pm and before I realized it I'd said "there's no way." But he didn't lash back and called at 8:00 to say he was almost here. Turns out only one person was there by the time he arrived and it was a lady that is NOT OW and is actually one of the two people that I am friendly with and feel comfortable with. Anyway, I stayed positive and didn't bring up R or any other items dealing with responsibilities (which he seems to avoid like the plague these days - your comment about not wanting to grow up is spot on). I didn't ask him about the credit card bill, will save that for the weekend when he's here longer. We got along very well and when he was leaving he said he didn't want to go (he has a medication he takes daily and it's at his place so he had to go). He hugged me and told me he loved me when he was leaving. It ended the day well as long as I can keep from overanalyzing what each interaction means. I know he didn't get to this point overnight and to say that positives are baby steps is an understatement. Plus, all the positives may just mean he still cares for me but doesn't want to be married to me.

As for the EA, it was a really strange situation. The OW is much younger, was abused as a girl, has many medical issues and has anxiety attacks if she is near older men. She was clear in her emails that she considered it a paternal friendship, but H indicated he wished it was more by going into "what ifs," ILY, her beauty, etc. I know H and know that there were feelings way beyond friendship in his words. But I really don't think she felt the same. She has done this before - what she calls giving guys the wrong impression. Ironically, the night I found the emails, H had written her that he was done - that what he was doing was inappropriate and he didn't want to be like the uncle that molested her or the guys that got the wrong idea.

God works in mysterious ways. As painful as that night was, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God lined up everything for me to find what I did, for their last email string to go the way it did and I sometimes even wonder if this was designed to be my wakeup call. That night may end up being the best night of my life if we rebuild our marriage. Anyway, back to the sexual stuff. I did not find evidence of any sexual discussion between them, but I'm sure there was fantasizing going on by H. Our ML had actually increased over the past few months, which I have read sometimes happens. So maybe he was getting the sexual from me and the emotional from OW.

I do think it's hard that we never really dated other people. We each had times when we briefly broke it off and there were a few people we went out with, but more like one time deals not a relationship. H said to me that he wonders if the reason we are having so much trouble ending it is that we don't know what it's like to end a relationship. I think there's some truth to that. He is so much a part of me and my entire life that losing him would be like removing a huge chunk of me. Think of all you go through in your life between 17 and 39 and sharing all of that with one other love. How do you move beyond all of those memories? My advice to my boys will be to date more than one person just to be sure. But you can't change the past, so it is what it is.

I have the books now and am beginning to read them, so hopefully I'll learn more about the principles and how to apply them.
Thanks for checking on my post. I'm still trying to reach out to folks on the site and build a network, but it's nice to feel like there's someone out there that is reading and ready to offer feedback/advice/etc.

Hope you have a great night!

Sorry meliru97, for some reason I didn't see your post when I posted last night.

I haven't mentioned the charge to him at all yet. When he's home this weekend I think I'll bring it up as a concern over a duplicate charge (two charges in same night, same bar, two different locations) and see what he says. Last weekend he did mention whether we should set up a budget for him now that he's out of the house so that later I don't end up feeling resentment. I'm not ready to separate accounts just yet because I'm hoping he'll be back, but if I'm really honest - I also don't want to lose visibility. Guess that tells me how much I'm still holding on, no? Ugh! One baby step forward and fifteen backwards is what I feel right now.

Bad day today as we had a little disagreement on the phone over me taking my car in for service and the total being so high. He didn't think the service was needed and I know he's upset because I went against his wishes. Oh, well.

Then he emails me a message just a few minutes ago that just says "Google Maroma". Evidently it's a honeymoon type resort in Mexico. No other verbiage. What is that all about?!?! Man, it's hard enough not to read into every little thing without H sending that kind of stuff. Guess I'll just see what happens this weekend.

I really gotta get moving on GAL because I can't keep up this emotional roller coaster. It's killing me and it's killing my kids too. They know I'm sad, they know I'm not behaving like myself and I'm taking it out on him. Funny, the anger or maybe resentment I have against H right now is not so much over EA OW, but more that he has no responsibilities right now and I'm stuck here with all of them. He doesn't even call his children. I think that's all part of MLC. Is that true?

Hi Limbo,

I thought his coming over after 8:00 on the 15th to have you do taxes was very, very inconsiderate! Maybe you don't have to do that much, but for some people, it takes many hours of preparing to file taxes. I think it goes back to him acting immature, selfish, and just plain inconsiderate. He was putting his "fun time” before anything or anybody else and he was not thinking about the late hours ahead for you working on those taxes. BTW, do you work outside the home?

I know you are skittish about pulling back b/c you are concerned that it will appear that you are not committed to the M. However, with the frame of mind that he is in........that is the only thing that will get his attention and the only technique that will work. I personally think you need to lay down some serious guidelines or boundaries. I would start with the bills, credit cards, bank accounts, etc. For one reason......you simply cannot trust a person in MLC. (You don't have to say those words to him, but after all, he left you.....right? The two of you are separated, right? Living separate lives, right? That may be what I would say to him as a reminder.) He is not the man you married and have known all those years of growing up together. He doesn't even know who he is himself right now. He may wake up one morning and decide to "go for broke" as the old saying goes, and spend every cent the two of you have on something completely stupid. But once it is gone.....it's gone! If the two of you have a savings account.....I would certainly do something to see that that is protected!

The next thing to decide is your boundaries/guidelines about how he shows respect toward you. He needs to understand that he must not do anything that appears that he is taking you for granted b/c you have a life also. Perhaps in your MC session (if the two of you are still doing that together) you could bring that topic up and inform him that you will never again sit around “waiting” for him to show up whenever “he” decides he is ready to go to your house after he has called and told you he was coming. It may not hurt to throw in the fact that you don’t particularly want to know his “business” like-- where he is or what he is doing when he calls (like telling you he is in a bar with another lady). If something happened unforseen that he saw he would be late and called....that would be showing consideration, but a gentleman does not call to tell his wife he decided to stop at a bar and is with another woman......just b/c the rest of the gang didn't show up. Again, immature and inconsiderate! But anyway, it needs to be said in a way that he won’t think you are jealous.....only that you expect to be shown respect.

BTW, that last time in the MC session, I think what you said and how you explained your actions (DBing) was perfect! I would never, however, explain what DBing is or why you are doing it. Remember, those are your tools and your game plan and it’s not for him to know.

Anyway, back to what I was talking about…….. he must not do as he did on the 15th and just assume that you will be there waiting until he gets through having his "good time" and then decides to mosey on over to your place and think you will still be there "patiently waiting" for him. After all……he called!! He told you he was coming over and then he decides to go to hang out with the old gang?

That is why, Limbo, you need to become unavailable to him and not be there whenever he decides to drop by unannounced or if he decides to pick up his phone and call just to chat. I know you thought that one time was a positive action.....and one time it may be.....but the next time it may be the fact he doesn't have anything better to do at the moment. (Sorry to be so blunt.)
Limo, he needs to be shocked! He needs a good shaking and a wake-up call, and about the only thing that does that to a person in MLC is when the LBS drops the rope. However, I don't think you have reached that place yet, so.......you need to work on pulling back a little more and GAL and being unavailable to him.

I find it interesting that he has noticed your changes! The only answer he could come up with was that he thinks it is “fake”. Well, that will take time to prove, but so be it. Just be that much more determined to do those changes for YOU and not as a gimmick to get him to come back home.
The biggest problem for LBS is that they are too afraid to pull back. They are afraid of doing anything that they think would push him farther away. That is what most LBS do not get! They have to do what they "think" is opposite. Even though they read Michelle's books and they read these posts......in their heart they still think they know what's best b/c they know the "person" they are M to. They keep forgetting that person is not who they have always known. That person thinks differently, feels differently and will act differently. That is why the LBS feels as if they are on the roller coaster ride also, b/c they are tying to constantly figure out the MLC spouse and they nearly go nuts trying to do it. They can't! And, until they reach the place that they realize that we do know what we are talking about and that Michelle's books are right........then they are going to be very, very miserable trying to do things "their way". I am not saying this is what you are or are not doing at the moment.......I am just saying this is the way it will be until you can fully accept the DB principles and apply them. I do think you are still a little afraid to completely do that. You've got to 1) understand what those principles mean and 2) are consistent in the application. B/c if you don't understand them, you can screw things up big time. I have been amazed at how some people have totally misconstrued what a certain technique meant and just made things worse. That is why you need to ask questions if you are not certain about it.

I believe the most misunderstood principle in DBing is the detaching. People usually lean too far one way or the other. That is why I use the term "pull back". I bet you have known some person in your lifetime that you have pulled back in the friendship and yet you were not rude nor mistreated them. You were friend-ly but were not BFF. You did not worry over anything they did or said b/c.....frankly; you didn't really care enough for it to merit you worrying about it. I understand that it is different when talking about one's spouse. However, that is why you need to "act as if" until you can actually feel doing it is very normal. When you can get your focus off of him........I MEAN REALLY OFF OF HIM......and onto you, your boys, and YOUR life.....then you will be so much happier. WHEN you are really able to do that and he is convinced that it isn't "fake" and that you are serious, then he will discover that his focus in on YOU!

We are here for you and will try to walk you through this the best that we can, but what I just told you is the most important first steps that you can take. I think he needs to know the boundaries and be made to respect them. You can explain what they are in a nice but firm way without sounding b*tchy. Nothing else will work until he respects you. This would be a good time to start setting those boundaries. You also need to set up goals for yourself. Have you done that yet? You need to have something planned each week and especially the weekends, so that it will have your mind occupied and keep you busy so that you will not be focused on H 100% of the time.

As for the OW………..I understand her side of it a little better (I think) but for your H………he may not have pursued her sexually since she had been abused by an older man, but he felt “needed” by her--or something. In other words, he was getting something out of that R! She was either boosting his ego or she was filling in some gap in his life………he was not just trying to show her a type of support or friendship with him getting something in return. You know why I know? B/c I’ve been there. Also, b/c it triggered him into a MLC. Perhaps he was already groomed (so to speak) for entering MLC b/c of his lack of fulfillment in the MR....but there was something there that kept him stuck to her side and interested. However, if he truly meant it when he backed away "b/c it was inappropriate" (I suppose he was having inappropriate feelings for her), I guess we can at least give him a bit of credit for that. The one thing I don’t understand is why she would turn to an older man if she was abused by an older man. You see, my daughter was sexually molested by an older man and she can barely stand to be around any older men now. Unless this OW was somehow seeking a “father” figure.....I don’t get it. And, I’m not sure I buy it, but if in the end she will stay away from your H....and he stays away from her.....that is what is important.

I hope that in MC, that your H will see the need to stop this immature behavior and see the importance of being a father to his boys and spending time with them. I hope he will see that hanging out with any “group” that does not include one’s spouse only spells trouble (unless it is all guys). I hope he will quickly get his priorities in order and that he will see what a jewel he has in his wife.

Keep us in touch with what is going on in the MC sessions. If you ever see that your C is not working toward the M being reconciled, then you need to stop seeing him/her. Hopefully, you have a very good MC.

Hope you have a good weekend and stay busy. If you don’t have the boys this weekend, then do something special for yourself to feel good. BTW, if there has not been a set schedule for H to have the boys by now………do it ASAP. Don’t let him have the kids when it is just convenient for him! Your time is just as important as his. You GAL is just as important as his! He needs to be made aware of that fact.

Take care and hope to hear from you soon.
Sandi

Sandi,
I'll respond to your post later, but right now my mind is on what's gone on this weekend and I need to vent and ask some advice. I'm so tired of everything being my fault. I'm tired of everything that goes wrong with the kids, the house, his life being my fault and H taking no responsibility. Why am I trying to get him to stay when it's like this? Why can't I just stop loving him? Why am I always the one apologizing for everything? When did I lose my self-respect? I can see that DB would help me get it back, but right now I just don't feel strong enough to do anything except survive.
H installed a spray faucet in laundry room upstairs several months ago (at my request). I was just bathing the dog and S7 came running upstairs saying there was a leak in the kitchen ceiling. Evidently, something in the faucet was leaking and now the ceiling is ruined. I began trying to figure out what happened and dry the ceiling and asked S7 to go get his dad (who was on the computer) and H never came. S7 went down again a few minutes later and H finally came up looking perturbed. H went upstairs, glanced (didn't even get under the sink) and said "you guys really messed it up," commented how it was right in the middle of the kitchen ceiling "really f****d up" and went back to the basement, closed his door and got back on the computer while the kids and I cleaned up the mess. H did NOTHING to help contain the water, clean things up, fix anything - NOTHING. I went down and knocked on the door of his office and he said "go away." I asked if I could come in and he said "no." I wasn't going to pursue, so I said nothing else and came upstairs. I've been bawling, but now have that under control and need to figure out what to say to him.
Yesterday he totally disregarded the plans I had and made me take the boys with me (no big deal, but it was the principle of it) so that he could go look at a Porsche. A Porsche for crying out loud! Then he tried to call me to meet him for lunch (to talk about the Porsche) and I didn't answer (accidentally left phone on vibrate) and he was so mad he reminded me about it all day. Then he got so mad at S7 warming up for his baseball game that he loaded us up and made us go home - with S7 NOT playing his game. It was embarrassing and painful to say the least. Says he's not going to allow S7 to play any more because he's lazy and a cry baby and a whiner. What in the world lesson is that teaching our boys? And of course, they're both lazy and babies and everything else because of me.
This weekend has been a total disaster and I'm so tired of it. I'm supposed to travel on business this week (yes, I work full time outside the home), but I'm torn. Part of me says go on so that H can have the responsibilities I usually have (which is tough on him because the kids don't fit into his schedule anymore) and because I don't need to let him continue to run my life. But another part of me is afraid to leave if he's going to be verbally abusive to the boys and irresponsible. What do I do? What do I say to him? How do I confront him?

Sandi,
In response to your earlier post - thank you. The whole calling on his way over to tell me he's stopping off to have a drink first is so indicative of our relationship. After the way this weekend has gone, I'm really doing a lot of thinking. I think part of the problem is that while we're separated, we're not really. He leaves on Monday morning and comes home Friday night. He does whatever he wants during the week and is with me and the kids every weekend - best of both worlds. I'm beginning to resent that because it gives him a LOT of time to GAL while I'm taking care of all of the responsibilities. I agreed to it because I didn't want him to leave to begin with. But maybe that's a mistake. Maybe if he's really trying to figure out if he wants me or not we should have a more traditional separation and he should completely move out. I am so confused today because I want a marriage that works, I don't want things the way they are. So I guess the conclusion I've come to is that you're right - to have any chance of getting there I will have to do what seems the opposite and let go. Should I suggest he move out completely? Should I see how next weekend goes before deciding? I have not set goals other than weight loss goals, which I am meeting so far (go me!). I need to set others. I'm really bad about goals - not good on follow through. Maybe if I set them and post them I'll be more accountable. Anyway, sorry for the boo-hoo posta a few minutes ago, I mainly just needed to vent. I've got to overcome being so afraid of making him mad and worry more about myself and the boys.
Hope you've had a good weekend. Thanks again for all you put into your posts for so many of us - you're a blessing!

I need some experienced DB help. I really, completely blew it today. I discovered that H sent e-card to OW and lost it because I felt signs this weekend that he was withdrawing and I also know OW will be with the group he's going to a concert with Thursday night just sent me over the edge. I did all the wrong DB things. I called him when I was hysterical, told him I didn't want this, wanted him back, the whole nine yards. When he asked what brought this on, I did not admit that I saw history showing his contact with her, but told him that I was upset because of the lack of discussion between us, his distance this weekend and the credit card charges I'm seeing. When I asked him about contact with OW, he said she called him Friday but he didn't answer - no other contact. He was at work (bad) and showed no emotion other than being upset over my invasion of his privacy. Now he says he needs to move out completely, get separate everything. I feel like any shot I ever had is now gone and I'm so tired of feeling defeated. How do you ever receover from just totally freaking out like this? What do I say now to try to get back on track? I know I've got to let go, pull back like Sandi says, but what do I do to address this encounter that I screwed up so badly?!?! I would really appreciate hearing from someone....

I can tell you that even though I am new here and trying to employ DB techniques, this thing ebbs and flows. I am sick of beating myself up for having feelings about my H running off, spending money, doing whatever he wants while take care of the kids and obsess on how to get him back. It feels so twisted at times. Every time I have lost my cool, I thought it was the "end" and it hasn't been (3 months now). You are human and have feelings. You aren't just some neutral robot strategizing every move. I have tried so hard to do that. The ONLY thing that has worked is focusing as much on myself as I can, therapy, reading, writing, exercising, looking for a job etc. Naturally, my responses have changed with H and I am more secure. Still, sometimes I'm just floored that he can think his behavior is ok. Occasionally, I just have to tell him what I really think. I can't say it has helped much but it didn't hurt too much either. I would just back off and go back to being my best self (and it takes time to discover who that is). After a few days of re-calibrated behavior, things were back on track (in a Twilight Zone kind of way). I am so sorry, I'm in hell too but I am stunned by how little it takes to get into safe communication with H. My problem is where do we go from here? How long do I live in limbo and with no expectations? I just don't know. I sure hope others can chime in too.

Dear In Limbo,

What do you think your H's reaction would be if YOU were the one to move out instead of him? And, yes, why DO you want the jerk back? He treats you terrible. He shows no respect and he treats your child terrible. I see nothing profitable in it for you if he does not change. I believe he is in full blown MLC, now. But, back to my question. How would he feel if you pulled a turn-about on him and moved out of the house insead of him? I bet he would be surpirsed to say the least, expecially after you begged him to come home. BTW, I hope you see where that go ya!

Remember.......they want what they can't have. Right now, he doesn't want you b/c you are giving the picture of a housewife clinging to his legs as he is despartly trying to get out the door. That is not very attractive, Limbo. You need to so something that will make him pay attention to you. Something he would not expect. I'm not telling you what to do, just that you need to do something other than what you are now.....b/c it ain't working!

Sandi

Thanks Alive and Sandi.
As for doing something very different, I need to think about that. For practical reasons, I don't want to be the one to move out. BUT, I'm sure there are many other things I can do that he would not expect. Asking him to leave full time might be it. I've also considered telling him that every other weekend he can have the kids full time and I'll leave the house (go out of town, go to a hotel, whatever just to have a break and GAL). Both of those would be 180s for me I think. Another 180 would be to put my foot down about the Porsche. What father of 2 needs his only vehicle to be a car without a back seat? How would he ever take them anywhere? I could just say, not as long as we have joint finances. He'd probably just take action on that but he'd be surprised that I took the hard stand.

I'm in a much better state of mind today and don't want to go back to where I was yesterday. It was frightening to feel so hopeless. I go home from my business trip tomorrow night and know the next couple of days will be a real challenge because we'll be in the same house and Thursday night H will be going to concert with group that includes OW. I have got to get my focus on me and off H, regardless of where he is, who he's with or what he's doing. When he comes home from the concert will be a perfect time to DB. I don't plan to ask him any questions or be up waiting for him - even if I'm awake I'll be asleep to him. The next day I'll be kind, but uninterested in his night. Any other DB tips?

As for wanting him back, I do want him back but I want back the H I used to know. I have a solo appt with our MC Thursday and hope he can help me with some detachment techniques. We have a MC appt on Friday, but I'm not sure what to even discuss. The whole thing seems a bit pointless as long as he's MLC and doesn't want to work on our marriage. What do you discuss in MC when that's the case? What do I discuss that's still DB? Any advice on how to approach MC when you're DBing?