Quote: but if that is what my life becomes with h still not making a night for me then what's the point really?
i sure do hear you woman!
again, i don't know your sitch well enough so if i am out of line, please tell me.
BUT - if you did manage to start doing things without him on a very regular basis, could he possibly end up resenting it enough to do something about it? i get the feeling that he does things sometimes but not for the duration. this is a hard one
i did read somewhere tho that if he handles your requests ok then keep requesting. i heard it used in the "take out the garbage" routine. we as women HATE it when we have to remind someone to take out the garbage, it should be something that could be remembered. BUT they don't always remember but they also don't mind being made aware of it either. so, keep making them aware even tho WE THINK it shouldn't have to be that way.
ugh, i don't know if i am making myself clear.
all i know is that it is helping MY pma to get out with other ADULTS and i continue to do more of it.
i am even gonna start a spanish class, and leave the kids with HUBBY in the evening. oh boy, i can't wait!
Quote: my browser is playing games with me so bringing over the posts from sage, jethro and shiny from the locked thread to here aren't doable right now.
Coming up! (but didn't see anything from Sage)
I actually wanted to continue this dialog because I felt we had not finished...and I want to "finish," as the examination helps me too...
Quoting Shiny: think Jethro has something here LL.
First let me say that it would drive me NUTS if my H were undermining my ideas, dismissing my thoughts and feelings in such a manner!!!
That is arrogant, pompous, belittling, and a whole host of other nasty sentiments!!!
However, I think that beneath most arrogance is FEAR. Fear of being wrong, fear of having to reveal oneself, fear of allowing someone else to have a valid point that may conflict with one's own fragile ego.
Yes, LL the most arrogant, narcissistic people are usually hiding insecurities and low self esteem.
When someone is confident in themselves, in their views, they have NO REASON to belittle another person's view in such a manner.
Does HE realize this...I'd bet NOT....it just "works" for him to dismiss your feelings/views in this way. If it's just "junk from other sources" then it's not really valid and he doesn't have to give it due consideration!!!
So what to do about it?
Well I know that CJ has shown me the light a fair bit in pointing out when my comments are dismissive (not in the same manner, but still).
Would that work with your H? Not so sure, as I don't think he has a lot of insight into this.
How about spelling out to him, maybe in a letter? How his dismissals make you feel? I know you've probably already TOLD him this lots of times, but perhaps NOW he might be more willing to hear and validate you?
Reminding him of this tendency of his will open the topic and perhaps allow you to start calling him on it when it happens. He's probably not nearly as aware of this as you are!
---SNIP---
Hi LL, things are slow on the boards and CJ's calzone's are taking longer than anticipated so I checked out "smoochie's" thread.
I just love you girl! Not afraid to ask what many of us think when we read her posts. So....making enemies on the BB, huh?
Seriously though, I have to wonder at her motivation too. I did ask her what kind of warning she gave her H about her unhappiness. Added my own nearly total lack of warning about CJ's unhappiness.
what ways might you suggest I help him to realize what he is doing in communicating this way? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, I don't have any good suggestions. How do you coax someone into truly examining themselves and their motivations? It usually takes something rather drastic to "force" this change...kind of like our Ses telling us to take a hike. Thing is, one has to be "open" to hearing this stuff and I don't get the impression your H is in a place to do so.
Has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL? Perhaps if he has, you can draw on this to support your efforts. Thing is, reading a couple of R books should help, but I know what you're going to say about his response to that...
He's stuck in his ego, LL...like many of us tend to do. Fortunately, many of us here on the BB (through Michele's help) see that our ego drives much of our thoughts, so we work through those things to try and make it so they have less impact on "reality." I know, if you asked me three years ago, whether I needed to change, I'd say that perhaps I was over-stressed, but other than that I'm good. My point is, I wasn't even in a place where I could even think that I wasn't "on top" of things.
I imagine your influence is working, LL, but ultimately it has to come from him. This reminds me of something my W shared with me from a seminar she went to last weekend...which I'm going to paraphrase and adjust to this situation. We understand what it takes to make a M work, and in this knowledge, we try to share our insights with our S. Many times our S is unwilling to "accept" what we have to share. Thing is, the influence may still be there. It's like an assembly line for ketsup...the bottle has to be made, the label put on, the ketsup inserted into the bottle, and the seal put on the bottle. You just might be the label in the process of his self-examination. So, who or what will be the bottle? Who knows...
Like SB said, he is being arrogant. IMHO, intelligence doesn't hold a candle to wisdom. I like to think wisdom comes from knowing that you know very little.
truth be told...I honestly don't know anymore how h would react if I kept myself busy with other things...
I did just finish an emt course that kept me out of the house two nights a week...didn't seem to make a diff to him.
I don't know if he would resent my being busy with other things or if he would find it a relief...then he wouldn't have to feel any pressure to spend time with me.
so last night I bought the new book for book club and started reading...I'll continue to read each night unless asked otherwise (I don't care much for tv that's h's thing) tonight I am going to hang with some girlfriends...and tommorow night believe it or not h and I will be going out to look for a big screen tv for the basement.
oooops...gotta go pick up son from his first day of school!! and yes the seemigly oh so tough LL shed a tear as he walked away holding the teachers hand and turned back smiling to say "bye mama"
Quote: Instead of considering it being "keep myself busy with other things", what if you were to look at it as "filling my life with other things"?
Big difference there. a rose by any other name is still a rose. call it keeping myself busy..implies I'll still make time for him...call it filling my life with other things and there'll be no stopping me from filling it all up and leaving no space for him. Many thoughts about this, but will just throw this out for discussion right now let's hear them!
btw...I do so appreciate your stopping by every now and then.
Quoting jethro: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> my browser is playing games with me so bringing over the posts from sage, jethro and shiny from the locked thread to here aren't doable right now.
Coming up! (but didn't see anything from Sage)
I actually wanted to continue this dialog because I felt we had not finished...and I want to "finish," as the examination helps me too... and that is what we come here for after all isn't it? or are we here to discuss KAW's fancy methods of waking up his w??
Quoting Shiny: think Jethro has something here LL.
First let me say that it would drive me NUTS if my H were undermining my ideas, dismissing my thoughts and feelings in such a manner!!! can you say hair pulling frustration!!
That is arrogant, pompous, belittling, and a whole host of other nasty sentiments!!! a huh!
However, I think that beneath most arrogance is FEAR. Fear of being wrong, fear of having to reveal oneself, fear of allowing someone else to have a valid point that may conflict with one's own fragile ego. ok so we all have an ego but for pete's sake...let it go already...if I can humble myself why can't he (more often) Yes, LL the most arrogant, narcissistic people are usually hiding insecurities and low self esteem. often was guilty of that myself...I recognized it...trouble is I recognize it in h but he doesn't always see it in himself
When someone is confident in themselves, in their views, they have NO REASON to belittle another person's view in such a manner. exactly! Does HE realize this...I'd bet NOT....it just "works" for him to dismiss your feelings/views in this way. If it's just "junk from other sources" then it's not really valid and he doesn't have to give it due consideration!!!
So what to do about it?
Well I know that CJ has shown me the light a fair bit in pointing out when my comments are dismissive (not in the same manner, but still).
Would that work with your H? Not so sure, as I don't think he has a lot of insight into this.
How about spelling out to him, maybe in a letter? How his dismissals make you feel? I know you've probably already TOLD him this lots of times, but perhaps NOW he might be more willing to hear and validate you? I never actually can tell if h HEARS me or not, sometimes I get a verbal response to such things and other times he seems to try to apply what I've said....maybe he knows maybe he doesn't, maybe he just feels justified in being a poop the same way I feel justified in asking for what I want. or in other words...most of his arrogant attitude stems from the fact that most of my "complaints" are the same old same old ones..thing is h has never actually "tried" to address them ie. the one night a week thing. Reminding him of this tendency of his will open the topic and perhaps allow you to start calling him on it when it happens. He's probably not nearly as aware of this as you are! I hope not cause if he is then he really isn't thick he's just a jerk. ---SNIP---
Hi LL, things are slow on the boards and CJ's calzone's are taking longer than anticipated so I checked out "smoochie's" thread.
I just love you girl! Not afraid to ask what many of us think when we read her posts. So....making enemies on the BB, huh? no, not making enemies just saying it like it is...I don't know her...but I know people like her..we all do..was she my personal whipping boy...certainly not..she obviously knows not the wrath of LL, if I really wanted to be mean and nasty to her she would know it and a whole lot of jaws would drop reading what I'd have to say to her.
Seriously though, I have to wonder at her motivation too. I did ask her what kind of warning she gave her H about her unhappiness. Added my own nearly total lack of warning about CJ's unhappiness.
Probably fruitless, but oh well. with her, yes definately fruitless, she doesn't get it yet and of course will be flocked to by all the flailing lbs's who want her councel and advice.
what ways might you suggest I help him to realize what he is doing in communicating this way? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, I don't have any good suggestions. How do you coax someone into truly examining themselves and their motivations? It usually takes something rather drastic to "force" this change...kind of like our Ses telling us to take a hike. Thing is, one has to be "open" to hearing this stuff and I don't get the impression your H is in a place to do so.
Has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL? Perhaps if he has, you can draw on this to support your efforts. Thing is, reading a couple of R books should help, but I know what you're going to say about his response to that...
He's stuck in his ego, LL...like many of us tend to do. Fortunately, many of us here on the BB (through Michele's help) see that our ego drives much of our thoughts, so we work through those things to try and make it so they have less impact on "reality." I know, if you asked me three years ago, whether I needed to change, I'd say that perhaps I was over-stressed, but other than that I'm good. My point is, I wasn't even in a place where I could even think that I wasn't "on top" of things.
I imagine your influence is working, LL, but ultimately it has to come from him. This reminds me of something my W shared with me from a seminar she went to last weekend...which I'm going to paraphrase and adjust to this situation. We understand what it takes to make a M work, and in this knowledge, we try to share our insights with our S. Many times our S is unwilling to "accept" what we have to share. Thing is, the influence may still be there. It's like an assembly line for ketsup...the bottle has to be made, the label put on, the ketsup inserted into the bottle, and the seal put on the bottle. You just might be the label in the process of his self-examination. So, who or what will be the bottle? Who knows... I've been standing here with the damn bottle buffed shined and labeled waiting for h to poor the ketchup in...little drips is what we've got...someone needs to give that little 57 a whack and get things flowing..I thought that his experience with ow taught him some things..woke him up a bit...but it seems he's slumped a tad again.
Like SB said, he is being arrogant. IMHO, intelligence doesn't hold a candle to wisdom. I like to think wisdom comes from knowing that you know very little. I totally agree with that sentiment!! Sorry that was so long-winded.
So???
jethro
of course there's more to say but that's about all I can get in right now!
Quote: I've been standing here with the damn bottle buffed shined and labeled waiting for h to poor the ketchup in...little drips is what we've got...someone needs to give that little 57 a whack and get things flowing..I thought that his experience with ow taught him some things..woke him up a bit...but it seems he's slumped a tad again.
I know... Each difficulty in our life provides us the opportunity to change...for the better. It seems your H perhaps at first was on this road, but yet again, got mired in his own muck.
You know, I've been thinking about you and your H a lot the last few days. Let me ask you something... It seems your H is always busy. When he's not busy, he's chilling out (practically sleeping) because he's tired from being busy. I know people who busy themselves into exhaustion. Why? Because they are trying to distract themselves from something hidden underneath that they don't want to face. My MIL is very much this way. I think your H is hiding in all the work he does. He's not hiding from you, but from himself.
People distract themselves in different ways, of course. Here, our Ses are distracting themselves with OP. My W certainly did because she was fearful of dealing with those raging feelings that were all clogged up inside of her. Her interpretation of the junk inside of her was that she wasn't happy because of our M, not herself. Naturally, it took time for her to realize this...and to realize that all her pervassive sweating, anxiety attacks, nervous energy, etc., all resided inside of herself...which was contrary to her outward appearance of strength and control.
So, it seems to me your H is afraid to "be," just wind down, chill out, and take some time to think. Again, I ask you, has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL?
It saddens me that people can go through their entire lives without realizing this dynamic in themselves. I pray that your H comes out of his "protective" shell. I pray for him to have peace.
Quote: I know... Each difficulty in our life provides us the opportunity to change...for the better. It seems your H perhaps at first was on this road, but yet again, got mired in his own muck.
perhaps he might think it's me who's mired in muck and he is just peachy.
Quote: You know, I've been thinking about you and your H a lot the last few days. Let me ask you something... It seems your H is always busy. When he's not busy, he's chilling out (practically sleeping) because he's tired from being busy. I know people who busy themselves into exhaustion. Why? Because they are trying to distract themselves from something hidden underneath that they don't want to face. My MIL is very much this way. I think your H is hiding in all the work he does. He's not hiding from you, but from himself.
I think he'd disagree, I don't think I do though.
Quote: So, it seems to me your H is afraid to "be," just wind down, chill out, and take some time to think. Again, I ask you, has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL?
I don't think so...I know that during our seperation he did go to a c...how often I don't know..but I do know that his last visit with her was when he started to consider comming back home.
he did spend alot of time before seperation (or heck maybe before I discovered ow) playing horseshoes in our backyard...sometimes he'd even be out there at night just throwing shoes by himself...or sitting in his truck listening to a ball game on the radio...I know that during seperation he spent some time playing pick-up basketball at a park somewhere...
at times he makes statments that lead me to think that he does reflect...ie. when he noted that as a result of starting his company at a young age he took on an arrogant persona that bled into the rest of his life and that he see's it's not productive and not the only way to display confidence or get things done...but I at times still see that persona.
Quote: It saddens me that people can go through their entire lives without realizing this dynamic in themselves. I pray that your H comes out of his "protective" shell. I pray for him to have peace.
I prayed the same for him many many times...even before ow...before seperation...heck any time I passed a wishing well or saw a star...I wished for a happy healthy family nothing more.
someone played a trick on me and made a muck of things perhaps in hope that they would get better but I'm not convinced it worked yet...the tools and ability are all there...they've made themselves seen time and again...but I would like for them to remain a tad more constant. not at all saying I'm looking for or expecting some fairy tale life but....well...by now you all know what I'm about.
the real kicker for me is that I accept my shortcommings...have since an early age...is part of why the majority of my electives in school were the pshychology courses that others dreaded (family diversity and dynamics, abnormal phych, family and childhood in contemporary cultures just to name a few ok so I did wimp out and opted for one true elective and took piano) I know the effects my life have had on me...I know how I have been shaped..maybe it's easier for me to see these things in myself because there source is so easily read...parent stress, abandonment, alchoholism, abuse, sexual abuse etc....while h had the quant little suburban life.
if you asked h...he'd see it as he's "normal" fine and balanced and I am a total basket case who needs help.
One of the biggest areas where I see people getting stuck here at the piecing stage is by working too hard to try to make their relationship better, and not leaving any room for their partner to pick up any of the slack. If you don't "enable" your partner to take some ownership in moving your relationship forward, they usually won't. Why should they? After all, you're doing all the work for them!!
A lot of times, once we begin to drop the rope a bit, they WILL pick up some of the slack.
Usually, by the time we're posting on this forum, we've got a lot of momentum built up, and have been working very hard to get to this place. It's hard to slow that pace down. Often times, once we do, it's easy to forget that some of the things that helped us get here, and we fall back into old patterns.
LL, in looking back at your threads from a year ago, it kinda looked to me like the more things that you did to be independent from your H, the closer he got to you. I think I'm seeing some of this now, too, when the less that you want from him, the more he'll give you? And the better you feel about things?
Gotta run now, more later!
JJ
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