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Peter Pan is 47. Unmarried. Never a serious relationship. Yeah, she'll cure him!

She's ALL ABOUT this guy, though. It's actually getting a bit nauseating. She's found YET ANOTHER reason to go to Upstate City, this time in October -- plans, people have plans! Now she's going to run a half-marathon. A woman who's never run a 10-K. But Our Hero does them, so....

So while I would have no compunction -- well, okay, one (first, do no harm, damned Hippocratic Oath) -- about seeing Schmuckatelli come down with something...nasty... why can't I get more angry at WAW?

Gosh. Could it be that I'm the man who truly loves her?

No. That would be a stupid answer, right?

Sheesh. Fogged-out pod people.

And now she and her Best Friend are holding WAW out as an EXAMPLE to a third friend of theirs, who they want to get a divorce as well!

What an inspiring lesson WAW is of -- and this is a no-shi'ite direct quote from the chat window WAW left open on my computer (it's definitely on purpose) -- "a strong woman taking charge of her life" (Best Friend's words), who is impressive because of "the speed in which I'm getting out of here" (WAW's words).

Pardon me while I wipe the puke from my keyboard....

In other news, I finished reading the "man's version" of the 5 Love Languages last night. Very interesting stuff, I must say. It was easy to see where I went wrong, but at least I won't make that mistake with the next-ex-Mrs.-SP....

Ahhhhh, crud. Savage thoughts at the end of March.

Where were all these "manuals" before I needed them? Makes me think there is something wrong with our society in that anyone can get married with no training whatsoever. There should be a reading list and a class before couples get married. What you do with the knowledge and training is up to you. I'll bet money it would cut divorces in half if implemented correctly. Now I know there is such a thing as personal responsibility but I honestly had no clue my marriage was in danger. I am not a mind reader and from what I've read, men in general are not good at "hints". So, I say again, where were all these "manuals" before I needed them?

AF -- that's a hoot, brother! I think they were always out there, we were just too busy doing our Man Stuff to pay attention. That was for the stay-at-home, Dr.Phil/Oprah/Jerry Springer-watching, bon-bon eating American "housewife."

Real He-Men like us were fixing carburetors, or wandering around the woods blasting some of God's creatures with a shotgun, or loading Sidewinders on F-16 missile rails, or locking-and-loading our all-too-heavy, but infinitely cool, M-60s.

We KNEW there was no problem in the world so big that it could not be solved with the proper application of, alternatively, duct tape or high explosives.

AFWAW and Smiley: I've thought the same thing since I began my journey. It just so happens that I began my journey about a year after becoming a bon-bon eating American "housewife." I finally had the time to think and face what I'd been avoiding in my big-important-corporate-muckity-muck life. I finally had time to read and find therapeutic sources such as this board. Before I had this time, I was on a slippery slope to becoming a WAW myself. That's what happens when you don't have the tools or knowledge -- you become just another case of a failed marriage. It is a crying shame that we have this wisdom available, but that people don't really find out about it until it's too late.

There is GREAT opportunity for MWD and Schnarch to develop a curriculum and hold classes all over the world. They could hold them in church basements, firehouses, and advertise with flyers.
MWD: You listening???

; )

I, for one, am going to be sure to equip my son with what I've learned and with these resources so that he has a better start to his adult relationships.

So much needless suffering from innocent ignorance.

Lucky

Amen

SP (Socrates Poison),



If you are serious about making this work then it's your duty to be the "pill." It's nothing you can say, it's all about consistent loving actions. The "pill" doesn't always work but the best side effect is it will heal and grow you.
Stop calling her a pod person it skews your perception and closes your mind. You really need to open your mind to possibilities, opportunity and to understand what loving detachment means.
To detach you need to realise the two possible outcomes. You need to be prepared for both. You need to be prepared for your own good either way. I saw my DBing efforts as a defining moment in my life and I had a choice in how I handled it. I was going to succeed for myself either way it turned out. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. Take care of all your needs - physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional. That's strong when you can deal with all this and carry on your everyday life. It's honorable when you can thrive doing it. You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach

Coach, that's good advice, but I will suggest that my perception is not skewed (i.e., "pod person"). On the one hand, she'll say something like "if I could take a pill," and on the other she'll get on the phone with her girlfriend 20 minutes later and talk about how excited she is to go to Upstate City and "spend a couple nights in the city" when the only reason to do that -- her girlfriends living in the suburbs -- is to see OM.

And, yes, I have clearly realized 2 possibilities, but I increasingly suspect that the lesser of the two (if you will) is the more likely. Realtors are calling the house with places "she must see now!" She's (deliberately, I think) leaving her email and chat windows open on my computer where I can see the snippy and snide things she says to her friends. And she's trumpeting her status as a Role Model for a girlfriend who "totally should" follow her example as a WAW.

All of that is behavior associated with some other creature who closely resembles my (former) wife in many respects, though this one is also more fit, better-dressed, and recently had botox done.

Yes, I see DBing as a way to enhance myself, and I'm using it that way. And yes, I am serious about making it work. But after 20+ years of studying tactical problems in the field, I know when an objective is more-or-less likely to be taken.

That doesn't mean I'm going to stop, but it does mean that I'm going to be infinitely cautious.

You write that I need to be open to what loving detachment really means. Fair enough -- can you clarify? I've yet to see a solid definition.

SP:

Women don't suddenly fall out of love with men. It takes years of deterioration. It took TWO to LET IT get to this point.

You are disrespectful in calling her a pod person. You are lashing out and treating her as your adversary when you make judgements against her. When you first courted her and won her heart, were you treating her as an opponent or as your best friend?

She is hurting you tremendously, and you are working hard to handle this "right". As a matter of fact, you are very concerned with being right and just. That is good, to an extent. In my opinion, it probably isn't enough to be right and just. To spend too much time sitting and wondering why SHE IS DOING THIS TO YOU doesn't seem productive, even if it makes you feel a little better.

She feels justified. She feels that YOU WERE DOING WRONG TOWARD HER for a long time. She needs more than you acting "right and just", more than following a playbook. She needs you to be a passionate, loving, fun man that LOVES AND RESPECTS HER FOR ALL THAT SHE IS. Botox and all. "Other Guy" is making her feel loved and accepted. He is probably treating her like she is his best friend.

No more pod stuff. It isn't nice, and it shows that you haven't spent enough time looking at your part--WHAT YOU DID OR DIDN'T DO in your marriage--to let her hurt and ache for an extended period of time. Name calling, at this point, shows that you aren't taking accountability.

You can't possibly be perfect. What names has she called you? What accusations have you suffered from her? There is likely some monumental truth in them, just as there is some truth in your assessment of her actions as of late.

I suspect that your pride can get in the way. I suspect that you have the ability to come off as an arrogant, self-important a-hole IN YOUR UNDYING NEED TO BE RIGHT. Why else would anyone feel justified in leaving you?

Maybe this is more tough love than is necessary. You may be hurting too badly to accept this yet.

Instead of spending energy on a defensive response, please spend that energy on introspection. Please please please.

You seem to be a wonderful man, witty, fun, intelligent. You also seem to react like Teflon when people point out where you are weak. We aren't here to make you feel worse. We are here to help you rise above and be a better man for the rest of your life.

Loving detachment requires that YOU LOVE HER AND TREAT HER WITH LOVE. You don't treat someone you love as the enemy. You don't call them names.

Lucky

So? Are you in the best frame of mind right now, are your emotions on a even keel, do you have all the answers? Have you imagined that maybe she is hurting, confused, scared, and frazzled? Is this how she dreamed her M would turn out?
The only reason she is going to take a trip is ....... Try not to think that way: only, never, always, totally, everytime. Do you really know why she is doing anything?



Stop mind-reading, if you want to know something ask. Can you imagine how she would feel if she saw all the snippy and snide things about all the pod people on here?!


No, that is your W. Not a creature but someone who deserves your love and respect.

Loving detachment, here's a start - you are responsible for your own happiness.

What Lucky said is spot on. You don't "see" your W. Look at your M as if it is in a fishbowl and you are looking in on it. Describe your actions, behaviour and dialogues with your W. Are you being the man you vowed to be?

You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach

Lucky, again I did not repost my original situation after being found out by WAW, so perhaps this will be repetitive.

I stated very clearly there -- and have stated very clearly to WAW in MC and out -- my responsibility for the D and my role in it, which is roughly 110% of it.

In my first sitch I acknowledge 4 specific instances in which the value of our marriage was called into question.

Yes indeed, it took years of deterioration of the marriage. Yes indeed, and I was instrumental in that.

I am clearly imperfect. I have admitted my imperfections in my earlier thread multiple times, and to WAW more times than I can count.

I have validated her feelings, I have agreed with her assessment of our situation, I have accepted her desire to divorce, I have looked the other way with the OM, I have refused to defend myself in talks with her and in MC (to the point where my IC got angry with me and told me to stop making excuses for her and stand up!).

I have not rejected a single criticism save for one -- I refused to allow her to attack my family.

I have never once blamed her for this situation nor denied that she had every right to feel the way she feels nor called her a name. She has yelled and raged and even thrown things at me (once) since dropping the bomb, and I have stood my ground and taken it. She even tried, in a fit of rage, to change all my computer password, online and on hardware, to No1A**hole.

And I have taken it.

Just this morning we had a long and agonizing telcon precipitated by her desire to have me commit to a figure in the money distribution now so that she can go look at houses this weekend.

I told her I understood her desire for financial closure, that I did not feel I could give her an informed answer at this time, but that I understand she's ready to move forward and excited about her new life and who can blame you you finally feel like you can reach your place in the sun -- and all it takes is for me to be cooperative on finances and to sign a piece of paper.

My doctor -- since doctors actually can't heal themselves -- is giving me a battery of tests to see if I have cancer. I have not laid that burden at WAW's feet, nor do I intend to. (But I should, she says, since she cares about me and we're friends.) But I say, no -- there's no place for me in her life as a man, so I'm not going to take advantage of our "friendship" by leaning on her. She said just this weekend "we're on our own" now. So be it.

All of this I have done.

And what have I, in your words an arrogant, self-important a-hole, received in return? The WAS script.

E-mails left open on my computer bragging about her affair, chortling about how she "divorced" me on Facebook, pointing out that hopefully MC will make me "more reasonable" about the money.

Phone conversations, within earshot of me, laughing about her affair, secret winks and smiles between WAW and Enabling Girlfriend while in my presence.

Declarations that our 20+ year relationship comes down to money (yet we are freely spending on sexy new shoes, sexy new dresses, botox, workout routines, facials and mani-pedis conveniently scheduled to coincide with luxury boutique hotel bookings in Upstate City where OM lives).

And when she calls, what does she ask of me? To understand her feelings? To get deeper acceptance that "this is going to happen"? To hear her sadness at the effect her leaving will have on the children?

No. She asks me to make a decision on whether I want to use mediators or lawyers and how much money I'm going to "suck out of her."

The woman I married was not cruel. This WAS seems to be or at least to revel in the power she has over me.

And if saying that makes me an arrogant, self-important a-hole, then so be it.