I haven't talked to you in a while, but have kept up with the stitch. In my opinion, your wife is behaving in a very inappropriate manner for a married woman and mother. I am sorry, but I do not believe what she is telling you about her "friends". Oh, she may be meeting some female friends, alright, but I think it is leading to no good! I do not believe she is out with other females until 3:00 a.m. It could happen, but I just have my doubts. You have asked her several times about having an EA and of course she denies it. But, don't you expect her to deny it? When she offered her cell phone to you, I think she was taking a gamble that you would not check it out b/c she knows you that well. I think if you had.....you would have been shocked. But, I don't think you want to know that she is having an EA.
Now, I am going to talk very plain to you b/c I feel that I have been where your wife is now....okay? First of all, after the baby was born....everything started going downhill. That can happen easily when both parents are working and everyone is tired, etc. It takes a lot of effort to keep the romance and passion alive when there is a new baby in the house. Apparently, she was exhausted and it became more of a habit and the two of you fell into a very bad and serious rut. The two of you were probably waiting on the other one to make a move, but in the end......she became somewhat comfortable with the lifestyle, but yet after a while, she became lonely also. Now, here is the gut punch.........I think she became bored with you. She did not feel passion and I think she is confusing "in love" feelings with passion. You see, my H and I fell into the same habit of that life style and I became so lonely and felt desperate for passion in my life.....however, he was no longer attractive to me, so I found it elsewhere. I am afraid that is what happened to your wife. She no longer finds you attractive or exciting and that is what she is craving. How could she leave her 4 year old at home, and her H, as often as she does.....going out with soooooo many "friends" and having so many other places that require her to be away........doesn't that seem inappropriate to you? I realize I am old fashion, but it seems when couples start having separate social lives, you can bet there will be trouble! Why would she have all these places and friends to be with without you? Why don't the two of you have friends together?
For one thing, it is like you said about those female friends of hers. Friends have "something" in common to keep that bond. So, if they are D or having M problems or cheating on their S.....then she is in very bad company and it is influencing her a lot. To me, it is highly disrespecting you! You can draw boundaries, but you can't control her actions. However, if you can figure out how she has to suffer the consequences for her bad decisions (like staying out until 3:00) that would make a stronger statement to her.
In my opinion, I think you need to think that there is a very strong possibility that she is turning to another man to receive affirmation, or excitement, or passion. So, you have competition! If you want to keep her, then you must outshine the OM (whoever he may be). That means that you will really have to go to work on becoming more interesting and exciting and fun to be around. Stop focusing on the idea that she is wanting a D. That is robbing you of your strength and keeping you so pulled down that that is why you are "so tired". What were you like when she fell in love with you? I bet you looked your best every time she saw you. I bet you wore your best cologne and you showed your sexiest smile and put all your charm into action. Whatever your personality is, make the most of it. We all have different personalities and they don't have to "change" but they can be improved.
When I read that you stayed in your PJ's on Saturday.......I knew right then you had some problems with your appearance that needed to be worked on. Sure, it's nice to have a day to lay around and not have to shave or get dressed or even brush your hair......but who wants to look at that? You have to put those days behind you and work you a$$ off to become a more attractive, sexy, male. Stop acting like an old, half dead, married man that has no life left and no passion. That is what she is craving......I just know it.
You do not feel good about yourself. You are worried sick and feeling desperate. That is showing through to her loud and clear and it is a huge turn-off for her. So that is why you need to really get into a program of focusing on YOU and how you can become the best person you can be. I can tell by the way you write that you are about to give up. You have got to find the FIGHT in you and use it to make yourself a person with zest, who is vibrant and enjoys life everyday. You have got to do this for yourself.........did you hear me? DO THIS FOR YOURSELF......not a game plan to get your wife back. You have to get into a survival mode here b/c you are going down, if you don't. The added benefit of all of this will be drawing your wife back b/c she will once again become attracted to you. She must feel sexually attracted to you first. So, you might say you can put the idea of "love" on the shelf for a while and just work on becoming a self-assured man who has a healthy self-esteem and it will show through your very presence. Practice (if you have to) being sexy again. The way you would talk to her. The things you would say to her. But at the same time, you are not really pursuing her. Does that make sense? Probably not. Okay, think of it this way......think of you two not being married to each other and you are a guy that is so self assured in who he is and you are the greatest catch any woman could get and you will be just fine with or without her. That is how you live "as if". You go around happy, positive, fun, etc. and act as if it does not matter what mood she happens to be in or what she does......you are just fine being who you are and she is not going to affect that. That is self-assurance. That is male strength that women like in a man. If you have a male hero that you would like to imitate his ways as a role model.......go for it....if it will help you. Some of the guys have done that and would ask themselves what would _(name of hero) do in this situation? May sound silly but it worked for some of the men.
I guess you feel like I have beat you half to death, but really it is my way of trying to shake you up and make you try harder b/c I am so afraid you are giving up. Look, even if a D goes through, it doesn't mean the absolutely "end" unless she marries another person. The two of you are going to be living under the same roof for a while, so that gives you more time. She probably is going through some type of "crises" in her life, maybe MLC....I don't know, but I think I know how she is feeling. She is starved for the things she has not had since that child was born and now it is like another woman has taken over her body. She doesn't even understand what is happening to herself. She won't tell you that, probably, but I'm sure that is what is happening. She is confused and she is so desperately unhappy and the only answer she knows is to get away from what she thinks is causing her unhappiness.
Okay....long post, so I'll go. But please don't give up. Go back and look at my list of DO'S AND DON'TS as your clip notes of the DR book. Look great and smell great at all times and play a little hard to get, but always be sexy. You remember how, don't you?
Take care of yourself, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sounds like every trip I have taken recently. The issue is in your expectations and assumptions. You need to detach and no expect her to call at all. For a while I tried to call every morning and every night to stay in touch while traveling, and found that my W just did not want to talk to me, so the calls were strained and pursuing.
Recently, I have just tried to set the standard that when one of us is traveling, the other (the one who has the kids) calls so that the boys can talk to the traveling parent before bedtime. That's it.
My W does the same thing, and has been for months - in one minute she wants to talk about a new car or refinancing our mortgage, and in the next minute she is completely distant. As I see it, she does not really want to make hard plans that are separate, but at the same time is unwilling or unable to commit to the R or to take any steps toward reconciling - so she kind of bounces back and forth.
It's hard, but try to stay away from both the long term discussions and the pursuing (calling her, expecting her to call, etc). Sandi's advice is very good with the one exception that I sometimes find that when I follow it too closely, I start doing it to influence my W, and then I am back into the attachment, following her every word and looking for effect, changes or trends. You really need to step back and focus on yourself. Believe me, that get's easier with time and practice - I'm not there yet, but am getting better.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Thank you for the honest assessment. I don't feel you beat me up in the post at all. At this time in my life, I know that honest feedback will help me more than any feedback that holds back in fear of hurting me.
But I think you have a very good intuition. The boredom issue was mentioned in MC. And I have to admit that yes, I did..... and actually we both kinda got stuck 'living a routine'. We used to go out a lot more before having a kid. And we used to go out alot with my friends also. Her best friends were her sisters. But we eventually moved to the suburbs while all my friends remained in the city, and they all actually eventually moved out to the west coast. We went out alot less, and didnt' get to go out much after our son was born. And we got too comfortable just staying home.
And I agree and don't like that it seems all her female friends are in bad marriages. Though sometimes I wonder if it seems that way cause maybe they only vent about the bad things to each other. If they are so bad then why are they all still married? But in any case, its not doing any good when they all fuel the fire. And in addition to that my wife is a lawyer who has been handling divorce cases too. And she would hear from alot of unhappy women there too. She has even said to me that she doesnt' know anyone in a happy marriage. I'm the opposite...I think all my friends appear to have very happy marriages.
As for appearance...I have been making a point now to be all showered and dressed nicely at all times including weekend mornings. I'm back into my regular workout routine, though I've pretty much always tried to keep in good shape, and she has mentioned before that I have always been in better shape than any of the other guys that we know. I even took your advice on the list and have been wearing some cologne often.
Regarding seeming like I'm close to giving up...I will admit that there are many times that that thought has crossed my mind. I even thought about it this past weekend while away in Vegas for 4 days. I won't lie...I've had a very rough time this year so far and I've cried more these past few months than I have since I was a kid. And adding a layoff on top of the marriage problem has made it an extremely stressful time. I'm not religious to any extent, but I've been occasionally praying for the strength to keep going. I am also using my son as a source of strength to keep going because I can't bear the thought of him feeling any pain due to mommy and daddy's mistakes. Just reading in the forum helps too. So I'm trying my best to stay in the fight but have to admit that I have questioned whether I can make it to the next round.
But you have no idea how appreciative I am for your feedback right now. Just hearing your first hand perspective of what seems like complete chaos and confusion to me really does give me a bit strength and support that I need these days.
Sounds like every trip I have taken recently. The issue is in your expectations and assumptions. You need to detach and no expect her to call at all. For a while I tried to call every morning and every night to stay in touch while traveling, and found that my W just did not want to talk to me, so the calls were strained and pursuing.
Recently, I have just tried to set the standard that when one of us is traveling, the other (the one who has the kids) calls so that the boys can talk to the traveling parent before bedtime. That's it.
My plan was not to call at all, but plans changed when my son made me tear up while dropping him off at daycare that morning I was leaving cause he knew I was going on a trip and wouldnt' let go of me. And he looked so sad watching me walk out the door. And I didn't think my W would call if I left it up to her to call. Plus, with a 2hr time difference and being with 10guys on a bachelor party in Vegas, I didn't know what a good time for her to reach me would have been anyway. We were literally out all day and all night everyday and were eating at odd times.
I try to stay away from any future talk, but seems like she's the one who always starts it.
I'm trying to focus on only me..and not analyze everything thats said or done, but its hard. Even today, I had to put my son in the car so she would take him to daycare, and then I watched from the door as they backed out of the garage. I purposely focused on not saying bye to her nor waving bye cause I kinda feel that I am always the one to say hi or bye or goodmorning first, or else she won't. So I just kept watching the car back out and as I was about to reach up to hit the garage door button, she did wave bye to me. I was actually surprised she did it. But it did make me feel good and any little positive like that, no matter how small, gives me encouragement/strength to keep going. And I really need it these days.
Glad to hear you response. I know you are hurting so badly b/c what you are going through is like watching a slow death of someone you love very much, but in this case you are involved in it also. A divorce is much like a death except one thing.....death is final and a divorce does not always mean it is final. I am glad you aren't ready to give up and when you are down that is when you need to come to us and say that you need an extra shot in the arm to help you keep going b/c all the LBS know what you are going through. I was not a LBS, but I have come to admire those who are willing to endure the crap we WAS put you through and stand for the marriage when we are wanting to give it up.
It is a very tricky thing to be able to keep balanced in doing the DO'S AND DON'TS on that list. If you don't talk enough, then she will think you are sulled up about something or mad. If you try to act too happy about "nothing", she will see right through you and know it is fake and think you are being ridiculous. So, learning how to walk the line is an acquired talent, I think. It takes practice, but many LBH's can tell you that you can do it. Look at "Thinker".....it was only a few weeks ago I was giving him that same long list that I gave you and he didn't see how on earth he could do it....but he is. Like he said, he is having to learn not to lean too much one way or the other and to stay balanced, but you can.
I believe it is important to keep believing and stay as positive as you can. You WILL backslide b/c you are learning a new technique under very stressful conditions! But, when it happens, just resolve to pick up and try again. Don't give up all hope.....that is the main point.
You said you were not religious but you were praying. May I ask who you are praying to? I ask only so I will know more how to speak on the subject in the future....unless you prefer that I don't. I am a Christian. I did wrong when I had an EA, and guess what? All Christians are imperfect beings who has a Perfect Savior. That is what kept me from having a nervous break-down. I hope you don't mind me sharing this with you. It was my personal belief system and knowing what the scriptures say in the Bible and what has been promised to me as a child of God that kept me sane through my recovery. If I had not had that to cling to.......I honestly think I would have destroyed my life.....in one way or another. B/c I have been blessed to have been taught what I have in Church, I knew that I could confess my sins to the Lord and He would forgive me based on His promise in I John 1:9. I did that and I had to accept that forgiveness based on what He promised and not on what I "felt" b/c frankly......I did not feel a whole lot at the time. I wanted to feel spiritually washed and clean again, but being as old a Christian as I am......I knew that I had to use "faith" and just believe what He said He would do and not wait on "feelings" b/c feelings is NOT faith. Believe me....it is a lot easier when you have the emotions, but that did not come and I had to just keep believing that I was forgiven. The emotional healing did not come over night, either. It has taken a long time. But, I am very thankful to say that God has been merciful to me and He protected me in my stupidity. Things could have gotten very ugly and I have to give Him the credit for handling that.
Anyway, didn't mean to give a sermon there, but just wanted to encourage you that you do need to believe in (I hope) God b/c if you are His child, He will give you the strength to get through this. I honestly don't know how the LBS or the WAS keeps their sanity without knowing the Lord. Prayer is very powerful and especially when you have others praying for you. There are a lot of Christians here on the board who are not embarrassed to say so and will tell you that they are praying for you.....especially if you ask.
So, take care and take each day as it comes and try your best not to worry ahead of time. If you are a believer in God, then you can trust Him to take care of your family and providing you with a job and holding you up with the strength you need.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
You said you were not religious but you were praying. May I ask who you are praying to?
I don't mind you asking. And to answer your question, I actually don't know who I'd be really praying to. I would best be described as agnostic. I don't fully believe in a higher power, but I don't deny the possible existence of one. I have explored going to church with friends way back in college, but I guess so far in my life, I haven't experience anything that has convinced me one way or another. I could never get past the blind faith part since my mind thinks in such a logic oriented way. My mind is always looking for evidence.
So I guess when I pray, I am just hoping that there really is someone out there that is listening to me.
So Tired.......oh, that hurts my heart b/c you must be so miserable and feel so desperate to pray and yet not even know who or what you are praying to. May I tell you this? There is no such thing as "blind faith". First, you have to understand what "faith" it. Faith is a "spiritual" action of believing in something that you cannot see or touch, but you know and you accept it by "believing" it. Secondly, faith must have an object. You have to place your faith in somebody of some thing (like a higher power).......if there is no object to your faith.....then it is all in vain. Does that make sense?
As I told you, I am a Christian, so of course I believe in God and I believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I use to use a picture of a Shamrock at St. Patrick's day to teach children about the Holy Trinity, which is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.....b/c this is hard for adults to understand, much less children. As you know, a Shamrock leaf has three heart shaped edges (as best as I can describe it) and I use to print the big word GOD in the center of the leaf and on each of the three heart-shapes I would write Father on one, Son on one, and Holy Spirit on one. It helped the children to see that there is One True God, but He has three personalities, so to speak. It is very hard to describe. I often use H2O to explain. H2o in the liquid form of water can represent the Father, and when you take H2O and freeze it solid it becomes ice.....that represent the Son when He came to earth in human form, then you can take that same H2O and you can put it over a fire and boil it until it become like a vapor or steam......that is kind of a picture of the Holy Spirit. All three had a part in making the world and all three have a part in the life of a Christian.......and all three make up Who God is. One is not more important that the other. The Bible says that there is only one way into Heaven and that is to receive Christ as your personal Savior. One must realize that he is a sinner and cannot save himself by being good or working his way into Heaven. That is why God the Son came to earth to be a sacrifice for man......so we would have a choice to make. If it had not been for Jesus making that sacrifice in our place b/c of our sinfulness....we would be totally helpless and lost for all eternity. But, our personal choice is what will decide our destination in eternity. God does not send anyone to hell. The individual that rejects Christ as their Savior sends themselves there as a result of their unbelief in Him. It is a personal, free, choice and God does not force it on anyone. He IS THE HIGHER POWER, and when you realize that you are a sinner and need a Savior, you will feel something in your heart that troubles you. Makes you think upon these things and makes you feel pretty uncomfortable b/c of your lost condition. That "feeling" is the result of the Holy Spirit of God that is beckoning you to accept Christ as your personal Savior. He won't keep doing it always, so a person should not keep putting off being saved. The only prayer that God hears from an unbeliever is the prayer to be saved. Then after you believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him into your life as your Lord and Savior, God will hear every word you pray for the rest of your life and all His promises in His Word (the Bible) is for us, His Children. It's great!
I could talk for days about this and I could try to convince you all the ways that prove God is real, but I think the Holy Spirit can do that. It is like the wind. We cannot see it, but we can see the effects and even feel it. When we are a child of God, we can "feel" it. You can look all around this planet and look at the creation and see the effects of what God has done. I can tell you the effects God has done in my own life. A lot of people blame God for the trouble here on planet earth, but this is not His world (even though He created it) b/c He gave this planet to Satan (the devil) to rule until the Lord returns the second and final time. Sin on this earth is the cause of the horrible things that are in the world today......it is not God's fault and not b/c He is mean. He is a God of love. There is one more thing I want to say to you and if you don't want me to mention any of this again, just say so. There is no sin greater that God's saving grace. You do not have the power to commit a sin that God cannot forgive. You may have heard about the "unpardonable sin" the Bible speaks of? Well, that is talking about one thing that will result in a person spending eternity in hell (the lake of fire) and that one thing is the result of their own personal choice......and that is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Savior. God made you a free agent to chose. Aren't you glad? But now, the ball is in your park. I do hope you will believe. I have been a Christian since I was 11 years old. My life has not been easy, but I would not and could not face what I do without my Lord in my life. God has been good to me and I could tell you stories of how I have seen His grace in action time after time. But, I will hush for now. I hope you will take what I've said into a lot of thought b/c I am very concerned for you. Troubles do have a way of bringing us to our knees, but if you don't know Who you are bowing down before.......how is it going to help you?
If you should have any questions, please, please feel free to ask me. As you can tell, I love to talk about the Lord, and the Bible, but I won't force it upon anyone if they do not want to hear it. I only want to help.
Take care, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Back in college I spent countless hours talking to my roommate who was born again. But in the end, there were things that I just couldn't just accept. But I always left my mind open to the possbility that I could one day experience something that makes up my mind, either way.
Today, I called to ask her if she wanted to have lunch. And after a little chit chat, she asked how my IC went and if I wnat to keep going. Its cause she knows that I'm wavering about continuing with the IC or maybe trying another counselor or just stopping altogether.
And W asks if I'm getting what I need out of it. And I said that I not completely sure what I want out of the IC. And then my W asks what I want. And I say out of IC or out of all this. And she says out of all of this. So I say you know what I want. She says, no I dont. And I say I want the same thing I've been saying I wanted this whole time. And she says 'you still want that?' And I say yes. So now I'm getting the feeling that she thought I wouldn't have lasted this long.
And I dont' even remember all the details, but we talked about her feelings and the usual ILYBNILWY, blah blah. And again I validate that I understand she feels that way now. And we get on the subject of what went wrong with us. And I say how I've learned so much in teh past few months and I can see how things went wrong. And she asks me what I think went wrong. And we talk about the nasty cycles where you do stuff to one another (whether you know it or not), and the other reacts which causes another reaction, etc, etc. And how I can see so many times now where we caused bad situations/feelings to each other whether we knew it or not. And she agreed.
Then I ask here if she heard of Retrouvaille, and she says no. I told her its kinda like a weekend retreat for couple in trouble and there is one I have info for in August. I ask if she would like to go with me. And she said yes. And then she asks how come its so far away in August, and I say I think there's one alittle earlier and if she thinks we should look into that one. And she said yes. So I'm getting info on the May1 weekend now.
And then I wanted to confirm what she told me the other week about getting a babysitter once/week. Sometimes she says things and then seems to forget so I never pushed it cause I didn't want to come across as pursuing. But I asked if she remembered saying taht and she says she did. And she wants to keep working on getting our son to sleep alone. Right now he still needs one of us to stay with him in bed till he falls asleep. This was one of our problems cause waht happens is that whoever puts him in bed usually falls asleep with him and the other person ended up sleeping alone. So we always seemed to be sleeping apart for a long long time now.
So now she's willing to go to Retrouvaille, we're still going to try to get out once/week as a couple and going to keep trying to get son to sleep without one of us having to be with him.
Also, I just remembered, when we were having the talk about waht I wanted...she mentioned that she thinks we are both getting too comfortable with how things are now. I'm thinking that yeah...you're comfortable cause you wanted it this way remember? But I didn't say it. I just said that I am giving her space because she asked me to give her space. And that this isn't the way I wanted our R to be, and that I'm not 'comfortable' with keeping us like this but I'm just doing what needs to be done for now. So I don't really know what this means. Maybe the DBing is working alittle, where she thinks I'm getting over her. I don't know.
So i'm kinda happier right now cause I think I made a gain today, but I still realize that the feelings for me are still not there.
I just wanted to add two points to sandi's excellent post on faith.
I find it interesting that right after stating your uncertainty of the existence of God, your W agreed to attend a religious M retreat, and asked for it sooner than later. God works in mysterious ways :). Who is to say today isn't that day, and that this whole situation has been a pathway for you? Certainly you have heard the expression "Leap of Faith". Faith is a decision to believe without having physical proof, or a decision to not believe, but either way it is your decision and no one else can make it for you.
Also, the greatest illusion that Satan ever perpetrated was that he doesn't exist.
I honestly don't know how I could make it through this trying time in my life without faith - it really is the only thing keeping me going. [/soapbox]
