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This is sounding *very* familiar to me, Gary, and has been a common theme experienced by several of the "recovering Nice Guys" here in this forum, including myself. For some insight into what is going on, read through my post on Sexual Archetypes from last year.

You're also reminding me of another exchange (further back in the same thread) between DanceQueen and myself regarding wifes who are attracted to Bad Boys, but who end up marrying Nice Guys instead --> and as a result find themselves sexually unattracted and unresponsive to the man they pledged themselves to. There is good news, however. You CAN change yourself enough to start being the "pirate" your wife finds sexually attractive (in my wife's case, I call them "rakes"), while not betraying your own self or values. In other words, you CAN learn to be both the dominating Bad Boy in the bedroom, while still maintaining yourself as the responsible father and husband outside of the bedroom. And you might be surprised to see how the change in the bedroom affects your relationship (and your own self-esteem) in a positive way all around.

Welcome to the Manning-Up! Club, Gary.

Take care,

Bagheera

Lucky:

You asked:
"It sounds like she chose you. What is it about her that you love? What is it about her that makes you want to have her as your wife (other than your daughter)?"

Many things. She's funny. She's sexy. She's smart. She's a good mother. She laughs at my jokes. Well, most of my jokes anyway. We have a lot of the same interests. We first met through my interest in jazz and blues. We went to bars together to hear bands. Well, I went to hear the performers (the drinking was secondary). She was more interested in drinking (music being secondary). We're trying to recapture this initial time in our courtship by going to listen to live music around town again. We both like this. We sort of forgot about it over the years, what with raising a daughter, paying for a house, changing jobs, moving, etc.

DQ:

Yes, I suppose I should learn more about alcoholism. Maybe I'm just kidding myself that she isn't a real alcoholic. She's close, yes. But at home, or with me, she typically drinks with restraint. It's only when she's out with friends--when she maybe wants an excuse for doing something irresponsible--that she over drinks. Well, then there are the family get-togethers, when she almost always over drinks. My entire family thinks she's an alcoholic. If such a thing exists, she's a situational alcoholic. Maybe that's an alcoholic period.

Thanks, Bagheera.

I'll take a look at the posts that you recommended. Thanks for the advice. It might take me two or three days. I'm accompanying my wife to a conference and I won't likely have internet access for a couple days.

I appreciate the tips on previous discussions in the forums. I'm certain my situation is far from unique. I'm certain many people have experienced a similar situation. And I'm sure I can learn from them.

Maybe there is some hope.

Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.

Thanks for that insight. I need to hear things like this. I didn't really understand the mechanics of the situation.

Also, you've mentioned Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) to me before. I didn't find it locally at a library. And it's sort of an expensive book, but I checked Amazon and it's coming out in a new paperback edition in April. I definitely plan to buy it.

And I just found PM for next to nothing used. Ordered it. (Sort of tricky to find the cheap, used hardcover copies of this book on Amazon, but they do exist. Lots of 'em.)

Gary,

One more thought on the initiation topic. You might have to try different approaches/advances until you find what works in the beginning. It's tougher, I think, because you're trying to win her back. It can be a delicate and complicated artform. But, no pressure (haha). Really, don't let that scare you. My point is to tell you not to get discouraged if you try to be more aggressive and it doesn't work at first. She WANTS it, even if she reacts based on her issues.

Bagheera is much more eloquent about the topic, so please read his posts as much as possible.

And, please consider checking out an Alanon meeting. I don't want to amplify something unnecessarily, but her alcohol use is linked to something within her that is likely tied to your SSM.

Enjoy PM. I bought it new, and it is worth every penny. I know I'll keep referring to the book for the rest of my life.

Lucky

Hi Gary...it sounds like you have a lot of reading and thinking to do! I don't envy you, but on the other hand, I know that if my ex-h and I had only done some reading and research and true self reflection, we could have turned a doomed marriage into a good one. So good for you! Seriously, lots of people just are too ignorant of what makes marriage work to do the work involved and make that happen, myself specifically being too ignorant.

About the alcohol...just so that you can start to think about this a little bit differently, an alcoholic doesn't mean someone is always drunk or that they can't refrain from getting drunk once they start drinking. Quite contrary. Most alcoholics have a ritual that goes along with getting drunk. Some may get drunk every day but that isn't the only form of it. Some of them may only get drunk once per month or less, yet they are still alcoholics! The factor in your wife's case that is a giveaway is that she is drinking daily. Even if in moderation, you cannot take an addictive substance daily and not expect to become addicted to it. The slow but steady and daily stream of alcohol into her bloodstream every day has caused an addiction, there is no way it can't. Does that make sense? Even if she just drank the 2-3 drinks per day but never more than that, she would still be addicted to alcohol because the body will "demand" her to drink if she tries not to for just one day.

Alcholics can be very normal people who don't seem to be "drunk all the time" is what I am trying to say. So perhaps part of why you are wishing to avoid this being true about your wife is because you have a misperception of what an alcoholic "is". They are not always daily, drunken, unfunctioning people.

So yes, please do read more and more about it. She may also be using alcohol as an anti-depressant, self-medicating with it. If this is the case, then if you and she can get to the bottom of depression issues, the alcohol may disappear. This will be difficult if she won't talk about it, however....so keep in mind too that at some point, you will probably have to almost force her to talk to you, ok?

Hang in there! ARRR!

DQ

I'm back at my computer after a three-day weekend away with my wife and daughter at a conference. My daughter and I had a grand time. We went hiking in a state park. Later we visited a water park. We topped off the day with ice cream. Meanwhile, my wife attended various conference sessions. No alone time with my wife. She was also nursing a toothache. So this was definitely not a weekend for working on the SSM situation.

Several things on my mind over the weekend. DQ asked (and Lucky before her in slightly different words) "What is keeping you in this marriage? Be honest if you can, is it just fear of failure or fear of being alone that keeps you there?"

Yeah, that's a tough one. It's been on my mind for the past several months. The fact that Lucky and DQ honed right in on that surprised me a little. But I suppose it's obvious. The marriage has to be satisfying, right? IS it satisfying?

Our sex life isn't particularly satisfying. No. But as I've been told by WAWs, it's rare in this situation that my wife and I are making love at all. This could have taken many months. It started immediately after I moved back home. So while my sex life might not be ideal, and the frequency might not be particularly satisfying, it probably isn't wise to push the situation.

But that doesn't mean I can't read and learn more. As suggested by Lucky, I ordered the book Passionate Marriage. Maybe I can immediately apply some of the things that I learn.

Again: "What is keeping you in this marriage? Be honest if you can, is it just fear of failure or fear of being alone that keeps you there?" I suppose I'm still in the marriage, in part, because of my daughter. Regardless of whether my wife and I are together, I know I'll be working with her for the rest of my life regarding Christmas, birthdays, other holidays, etc. It's best to make this situation work in a functioning marriage.

Also, at one point, many years ago, my wife and I were very happy together. I think we're trying to recapture what was once good about our marriage, way back before our daughter, before we bought a house, before we let life in general distract us from the marriage. As our lives became more complicated, we did a less effective job of making the marriage satisfying. We took each other for granted.

I need to follow up on some of the suggestions made last week. So I've got plenty of homework yet to do.

1) Spellfire: I need to read about your situation. It sounds very similar to mine.
2) Bagheera: I need to follow the links that you provided and learn about sexual archetypes and bad boys/nice guys.
3) Lucky: I need to read Passionate Marriage. (It should arrive soon.)
4) Everyone: I need to learn about alcoholism.

I keep going back and reading DQ's message about sexual addiction. I think she's probably right. While my wife has shown only slight interest in me sexually, that doesn't mean she isn't interested in sex. My wife doesn't want to talk about this with me, though. Many subjects are off limits. This is one of those topics.

I know this much: my wife is well aware that she has a problem controlling her drinking when she goes out with friends. She is well aware that she makes bad decisions regarding the men that she meets on these nights out. Since the first round of these problems, about 12 years ago, she eliminated some of her girlfriends--the ones she would go out drinking with.

Now, she says she's older and men don't make passes at her like they used to. I think that's bunk. Men will always make passes at women who act like they want to have sex.

If she would talk to me about sex, this would all be easier. But she refuses to talk. She argues that sex simply happens on its own. You don't talk about it or you destroy it. This comes from a woman who plans out every moment of her week. There is very little spontaneity in her life. I'm much less structured. I'm trying to get her to be more spontaneous on our date nights, but it's hard to talk her into really having fun with me. At the tail end of one night out, we stopped by a bar to see a band, and we danced to a late hour. But this is very rare. Usually, we just go out to dinner (at a nice, expensive place) and then we return home.

I think we're making progress. I think. But how can I know if she won't talk to me about the reconciliation? So before I left for work today, I left her a note that I'd like to talk this evening about the progress that we've made.

Maybe I'm just asking for trouble. But it's been four months since I moved back home. We know something about what's working and what isn't in the reconciliation. Shouldn't we be talking about these things?

Good luck on talking tonight, I hope she responds to your note.

Gary, I'm going to push on you a little bit the same way I have pushed on others in this forum....you say that "she won't talk". But are you sure this is the case, or have you just allowed her to shut you down on the topic? Why is SHE the only one in your marriage of two partners that gets to decide what will be talked about and what will not? My guess is that you are afraid to approach certain subjects, and she finds it easy to just shut you down by saying "I don't talk about that stuff, it should just come naturally". She says this with conviction, so you believe her and back off. What if, instead, YOU said with conviction "Wife, we need to talk. And I will not accept you just blowing me off on this, we both really do need to talk. If you have nothing to say on the subject, then you can just listen to me talk".

And if she really does just listen but won't talk, then be prepared to just tell her "like it is". Meaning, dump all your feelings and thoughts on the subject upon her table, if she is in listening mode.

You might be surprised that simply by standing up to her and talking anyway, whether she does or not, will prompt her to talk.

Let us know how it turns out.

As for the addiction issues, I wouldn't mention sex addiction to her, as from personal knowledge I understand that this is a tough thing to really "get" about yourself, especially if you aren't actually having sex. Its hard to understand that sex addiction sometimes does not involve sex itself. So for now, if I were you, I would focus on her alcohol addiction, if you are going to bring anything up regarding addictions.

DQ