Before our marital problems, my wife went to bed at 9pm and I went to bed ... whoa, around 11pm-2am. I worked on projects. I do a lot of volunteer work for conservation efforts. And I write for various publications. I didn't have to get to work until 9am.
But now, I go to bed at 9pm with my wife and I get up much earlier than in the past. So I try to be at work not long after 7am. Big change. But necessary to help establish some intimacy in the marriage--and to present a good rationale for getting our daughter out of our bed! (Which has been absolutely essential for getting the reconciliation process going.)
Sometime in the not-so-distant future I will need to resume SOME (but not all) of my outside activities. But I'm taking my time about it. Lots of bad habits to break and good habits to create.
Yeah, I "try really hard not to" stay up late with hobbies. That was a killer. But that's the only time for watching movies. Otherwise, it's nothing but Disney-approved family viewing. THIS I'm still wrasslin' with. Thank goodness my daughter has a taste for '50s sci-fi and silent comedies! So some of these movies have crept into our family viewing. She's a cool kid. She even watches the old Burns & Allen TV show with me, and seems to like it! (While my wife just grumbles.)
me: 50 w (waw): 45 daughter: 9 m: 16 t: 19 bomb: 9/26/08 status: physical separation for 7 weeks, then work-in-progress R
While my wife is low desire about making love to me, is that necessarily always the case with her reactions to other men? Maybe not. You might be on to something there. She does indeed want attention from men. Long before we met (back in her college days), she was essentially a professional party girl at a country club. No, not a call girl. But the country club actually paid her, and women like her, to party with the rich guys. Not sure I should even be saying this... She does like to party. But she doesn't really party much with me. It's rare, although we have done it and had fun.
This is a clear dichotomy that she has established. One kind of life that she craves--she loves to drink and party, no doubt about it. And another kind of life that she also craves--she wants to be a mother and she's great at it (although she indulges our daughter a little too much, in my opinion). Not exactly sure where I fit in. Notice I said she wants to be a mother. But a wife? Not necessarily so. Hmm ...
Good point you've made. I'll need to think about this some.
me: 50 w (waw): 45 daughter: 9 m: 16 t: 19 bomb: 9/26/08 status: physical separation for 7 weeks, then work-in-progress R
Could it be that you are that stable guy that came along when she needed to feel safe? You don't sound like a party-guy (that's NOT an insult). How/when did you meet? Were you one of the rich guys at the country club?
Were her A's with guys who are party-guys?
How much does she drink? How many days a week, how many drinks, what is she drinking?
When she "parties," is it at home with you or is it out?
You asked: "Can you tell us anything you know about her A's as far as, is there any pattern you can see? What was she getting out of it? Do you know anything about what actually "happened" once they entered the physical part of the A? I'm sorry that these questions might really hurt you to think about, so just skip them if its too painful. All I am really trying to do is get an idea of what she keeps chasing outside the marriage and help you to develop whatever "that" is, so maybe she will chase you one day."
The pattern is clear: 1) I become absorbed in an outside project, 2) her insecurities kick in and she feels neglected, 3) she starts partying (and going out drinking with friends), 4) I get angry with her but we don't really talk about it much (and an ice wall grows between us), and 5) she hooks up with some worthless pirate who nonetheless parties like a champ.
She seems to derive some pleasure from the worthlessness represented by these *#$@%&+s. I'm not a pirate. I'm a decent guy. But in her mind, that ain't no fun! We do indeed have a bit of a problem in that area. Thanks for bringing up this issue.
She did indeed chase me during our initial courting (nearly two decades ago). She made it quite clear that she wanted me as her husband. I had my doubts about the wisdom of our union, but no one had ever really wanted me in their life before, not like she wanted me in hers. This was attractive to me. So we got married. I suspect she knew all along that I didn't really make her burn with passion. She burned for pirates. But she's smart and she knew she couldn't marry a pirate. So she chose someone who was stable, who could be a good father, who could give her a good life. Still, I suspect, she misses the pirates, and yes, occasionally longs for the pirates.
Not sure how to make her really long for me. In her mind, I'll always be the opposite of a pirate. The anti-pirate.
But you know, I could be misinterpreting her entirely. She's filled with contradictions. I'm doing my best to describe her and her desires. But she won't really talk to me about this stuff. I can only make assumptions and guesses.
me: 50 w (waw): 45 daughter: 9 m: 16 t: 19 bomb: 9/26/08 status: physical separation for 7 weeks, then work-in-progress R
Its still a problem to hear you say that she won't talk to you about any of this stuff. I know it would be hard for her to talk about it, but seriously, she really needs to. Not so she can talk about pirates and what she likes about them, because that isn't really what's going on. She needs to talk about it so she can help herself understand what is really happening when she goes off after a pirate. If she doesn't take the time to learn why she does this and what the attraction is for herself, then you two will have twice the battle you already have. She doesn't necessarily even have to talk to YOU about this, she could do it in counseling.
Also, why can't you be a ruthless pirate? Of course I mean only in the bedroom or in the seduction process, not in life...but why can't Gary be the sexy pirate who wants to ravage her?
It sounds like she chose you. What is it about her that you love? What is it about her that makes you want to have her as your wife (other than your daughter)?
Sorry for the questions. You're probably sick of rehashing everything. It's for the purpose of the SSM crowd getting to know you and understanding where you are.
My wife's affairs have always been with party guys.
She is very close to being an alcoholic. This is one reason we don't go to a marriage counselor any more. He brought up the subject. She refused to consider this is a possibility.
She grew up idolizing her aunt, who managed a bar and was an alcoholic. As a child, she wanted to grow up to be like her aunt, who had four husbands (I think, but I lost track). She remembered the perfume and the sense of excitement when her aunt would appear at her house late at night and wake her from sleep with a kiss.
Her aunt died alone in a trailer park. Her children all absolutely worthless (bums and alcoholics). You'd think my wife would see the irony here ...
My wife has shown that she can completely give up alcohol, as during her pregnancy. When she goes out drinking with friends, though, it almost always means she gets drunk. Yet, almost every night she has two or three drinks, and she doesn't let it drive her to excess. She can control her drinking, while in our home. She doesn't do as good a job of controlling her drinking when she's out with friends, though.
me: 50 w (waw): 45 daughter: 9 m: 16 t: 19 bomb: 9/26/08 status: physical separation for 7 weeks, then work-in-progress R
You said: "She needs to talk about it so she can help herself understand what is really happening when she goes off after a pirate. If she doesn't take the time to learn why she does this and what the attraction is for herself, then you two will have twice the battle you already have. She doesn't necessarily even have to talk to YOU about this, she could do it in counseling."
Yes, I agree totally. But right now, she refuses counseling. We tried it and she rejected it.
You said: "Also, why can't you be a ruthless pirate? Of course I mean only in the bedroom or in the seduction process, not in life...but why can't Gary be the sexy pirate who wants to ravage her?"
Well, you know, in one of the very few times that she gave me any insights into her preferences regarding sex ... it was just a few weeks ago. I was putting some moves on her, gently kissing her back as we lay in bed, when she became sort of frustrated.
"Just grab me rough, and take me," she said. "Can you do that?"
I was surprised. Then I did it. I try to be more forceful now, but I'm not good at it. Sometimes she wants the sensitive guy who gives her backrubs and cherishes her. Other times, she wants Captain Jack. Arrr. She doesn't drop clues as to which mode we're in. And I'm too dense apparently to pick up on the hints (if the hints/clues indeed do exist).
me: 50 w (waw): 45 daughter: 9 m: 16 t: 19 bomb: 9/26/08 status: physical separation for 7 weeks, then work-in-progress R
OK Gary....I didn't realize alcohol was such a problem in your marriage. Wow, your wife's childhood, just...wow. No wonder your wife has these issues, seriously.
Did you see Lucky's second post to you on this thread? I am curious to these answers too, like what exactly about your wife do you love? What is keeping you in this marriage? Be honest if you can, is it just fear of failure or fear of being alone that keeps you there?
I have to say my gut reaction is that your W is definitely an alcoholic, and so no wonder she doesn't want to do counseling. Addicts do always know on some level that there is a problem inside of them, and active addicts will refuse to discuss their addiction as if it is real, so that they can keep doing it. If they lay it on the table and discuss it, then they will also have to admit that they *know* it is harmful to them and to those around them.
Gary, if she is drinking 2 - 3 drinks PER NIGHT at home with you and your child, this is not showing she can "control" her drinking. This is full blown alcohol addiction.
As I am now learning to understand, addiction tendancies can flip on a person. An alcoholic may give up alcohol, only to pick up porn or gambling. So I would make a guess that her pirate issues are another form of her addiction process.
Please read all you can about alcholism, if you haven't already.
I've heard that a great way to "take a look at" your partner's drinking is to attend an Alanon meeting. You can do this anonymously at first without your W or anyone knowing. It might put a whole new frame on your situation and give you more strength to continue working on the R.
About the sweet, gentle kisses on her back... My H initiates that way, too. I can *sense* when he is timid and testing the waters to see if I'm going to respond. He's sweetly kissing me, but he can end it there without really turning it into an initiation. If I *respond* in the slightest, then he'll continue. The problem is this: He is making me *respond* before he actually goes in for the kill. He is making ME CHOOSE HIM. I hate it. Your wife hates it. If you had good sex on a regular basis, then the sweet approach might not be so annoying. She wants to be CHOSEN. She wants you to be the aggressor.
So difficult, I know. I'm trying to be a vixen when I've been pretty maternal lady my whole life. It's not comfy or natural.
You probably don't feel comfy or natural as a pirate. Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) writes about how we have to push beyond our comfort zone and literally pretend to be what we're trying to achieve. With time and practice, we get less and less uncomfortable and we actually become what we wanted to become. If you haven't picked up PM yet, please do so. It is excellent.
