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I disagree with your statement about MLC.

An alcoholic has a disease. When they are using they ARE A**holes. AND there are times to back out and back off for healing...what would a good strong counselor say...YES one who believes in marriage counseling.

Have you went back Ali and read what T has said and communicated to her x throughout this? Again - this is teh ONE PLACE where it is suppose to be safe.

yes you pave a way for TRUTH HONESTY and YES COMPASSION.... but he isn't even on the yellowbrick road yet....

sorry but i get defensive for people whom i have watched go through this with dignity and honor. TRUSTING is one of those people. GO BACK and READ here TIME through the divorce.... gO READ IT WITH OPEN EYES AND COMPASSION for her......

she hasn't "DONE" anything to him...she is being unavailable. I BELIEVE the term in DBing is called GOING DARK......

Hiya, I know, yes, I have been reading for a year.

Jody, my DB counsellor said that people on the boards get stuck in a groove, like the LRT and keep doing it, as it feels safe and comfortable to stay there and they get afraid to take a risk, but the point is, they are all techniques and if something isnt really yielding any results, then try something different she said. I'm not saying that thats appropriate right now, or here, just a suggestion.

thank you for your explanation.. go back 2 years... it is when they divorced...you will see the dignity that she has walked and yes i agree you can get stuck. But again, I am sure your DB coach will remind you....we can not change the mlc -- they have to come to stuff on thier own..

Hey, all. I may not know Trusting well enough to speak for her, but I've followed her sitch for a while, and I am very much in the same boat with her (except that her H does seem to have more "questioning" or "peeking out of the tunnel" episodes than my exH does.) So, Trusting---sorry in advance if I overstep with anything I say.

AliSuddenly, I also don't mean to slam what you said, because I think you did bring up some good food for thought. Certainly they are things I personally need to think about.


Regarding being exH's friend and "paving the way"---I agree that these things are necessary if a reconciliation is ever to happen. Acting "As If" and being upbeat and positive is great because it shows us, the LBS, in the best light. And when we see our exH's, we should even be friendly, supportive, and encouraging when the situation allows.

HOWEVER, the LBS MUST set boundaries while the MLC'er is still in crisis mode and is still being destructive.

Perhaps in this case Trusting's exH wasn't deliberately trying to push her buttons. Maybe he did just want to take the kids to the party and didn't think T would have a problem with it. But he didn't even consider that T and the kids might have other plans. He didn't ask. And, IMO, that's crossing a boundary. I think we've all seen that MLCer's are incredibly selfish and think only about pleasing themselves, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept it when it comes to our children and our time with our children.

If he had asked, I'm sure Trusting would have had a mature conversation with him and considered what was best for the kids. Since he did not ask, I hope that Trusting will send him a text or an email saying something like, "Thanks for taking the kids to your stepmother's party. I'm glad they got the chance to go, and I'm sure they had fun. However, in the future, I would appreciate a little more advance notice if you would like to do something with the kids on my weekends. I'm glad it worked out yesterday since we didn't have any conflicting plans, but that may not always be the case. Thanks! Have a great week!"

That type of message would show him: 1.) That she wants what is best for the kids, 2.) She is willing to be reasonable and flexible and is not trying to punish him, 3.) She is being friendly and upbeat toward him, but she at the same time still 4.) Establishes a boundary for how he should behave about extra visitation if he wants a positive outcome. (And, oh yeah, number 5. He didn't push her buttons if that was his aim.)

Of course, I wouldn't advocate that for every situation. There are MLCer's who try to control and manipulate the LBS through the children and use visitation times as a weapon. (MrsH's ex comes to mind!) In those cases, there can't be any discussion or negotiation---it needs to be that visitation occurs exactly as the legal papers say it should. In her own sitch, Trusting is the only one who can judge whether or not being flexible with exH about visitation is a good thing for the kids and for her relationship with exH.

I think it was very healthy that Trusting was not planning to be there when exH and OW picked up the kids. To me, exH continuing an adulterous affair and bringing the OW around the children qualifies as destructive. And I, personally, will not pretend that I am okay with exH's adulterous actions. I will not quietly condone his affair by pretending that I am fine with the OW being around my kids. Who knows---maybe this makes exH think of me as harsh and unforgiving, and maybe it puts a roadblock in any future reconciliation. I will have to pray about that in my own sitch. However, having exH bring OW to my home is an absolute no-no. Maybe he will end up marrying the OW, and maybe in time I'll be in a totally different place emotionally and I won't care anymore. But for now? No way.

That is a boundary I will not allow to be broken. It is for ME and MY sanity and well-being. So, if Trusting knows in advance that her exH will be picking up the kids with OW in tow, then yes, she should be gone.

IMO,"Paving the Way" doesn't mean that we encourage our exH's to step all over us. It doesn't mean that we act like doormats. We can't stop them from being in MLC, we can't stop them having an affair, but we can take steps to prevent their hurtful actions from being shoved in our faces.

Hey, glad to have generated a bit of 'thinking outside the box', I read but rarely post...and no Caz, its not about changing the MLCer, its about changing our own behaviour, sure. But, its a moving target, maybe its time to reassess a little (if he IS frustrated to have not seen you lately)?...who knows what affect it would have if you changed tack and tried to extend a tiny olive branch of friendship? I think that would serve you better than the itching powder trick (and what about respecting HIS boundaries and telling your son thats no way to behave? You cant expect respect from your ex, if you dont treat him with respect?) Sometimes, you have to take a risk.. afterall, what at this stage, with the D having gone through.. do you have to lose??

Like you say tpascal, just food for thought is all! And I appreciate that some of the posters here, like Trusting, have been through a really tough time.

So Trusting.. are you going to send him a friendly text about the party!?

As for T's S17 putting itching powder in the drawer---I have a D14 and I know that it doesn't much matter what I say to her; if she's got her mind made up about something, she'll do it anyway. Teenagers are like that. (MLCer's are like that, too!)

Yeah, maybe the sainted mom thing to do would have been to say, "No, don't do it." I, however, am not a saint, and I thought it was pretty funny! Also, Trusting has to be careful not to alienate her son by lecturing him right when he shared his prank with her. Open lines of communication between parents and teenagers are often hard to come by, and if S17 felt a camaraderie with his mom by sharing this with her, it probably wouldn't be wise to shoot that down.

Maybe at some point Trusting can have a convo with her son about how important it is to search our own hearts to discover the motivations for our actions. I just had to have a similar talk with my D14 about her motivations for pulling a prank (against a frenemy at school, not the OW.) But, same basic principle. Maybe talk to him about not letting exH and OW's actions have control over his life, and about finding healthy ways to vent his anger.

But with teens, you have to really pick the right moment---especially these teens. Not only are they having to go through the normal teen rites of passage (discovering who they are as individuals, deciding what they want out of life, rebelling against parental authority, dealing with peer pressure), they have to deal with a parent in MLC and an OW they blame for destroying their family.

IMO, you have to kind of look at S17's prank as "whistling in the dark." This IS a dark time in S17's life, and if something this innocent gives him a moment of humor and lightens his load for a moment, or helps him work off some anger toward the OW in a non-destructive way (I've never tried itching powder---does it even work??), then so be it.


Trusting, I hope you're having a great day!

Tpas, Ali, Cagz,

I appreciate all your posts so much.
What is so wonderful about this forum is that you get so many ideas and responses to the happenings of the ML'er.
It causes you to think, experiment, and ponder other ways to get through this mess.
I appreciate it all.
What works for one, may not work for all.


One thing I have learned about my ex is that he very much will try many things to get my attention, or push my buttons so to speak. He does not care if it is negative attention vs. positive. He just wants attention.

Like many adolescents.

This is not so new with his ML crisis. He has always been this way. It has just gotten worse in this crisis.

This attention seems to help him divert from his reality.

If I go dark, he has to deal with himself. When he brings OW to my door to pick up my children, it is obvious to me that he is testing how I feel about him by my reaction to OW. I will no longer give him this opportunity.

Along with MlC, I believe my ex is somewhat of a narcissist.

Trusting,

You know I've followed your sitch as you also follow mine, but I have to agree with Ali on this:

"I read along and I dont really see your ex doing things to push YOUR buttons, perhaps you just interpret it that way, make it about you when maybe it isnt really?"

I mean, consider how much time you spent plotting the destruction or pain of your worst enemy. Probably not much! Why would you assume that your H is spending this much time trying to hurt you? He is probably just off in lala land and doesn't think how he'd hurt you.

Trusting, you are still hurting and we all understand this, but consider what makes someone want to apologize, or have the humility to do so. If you freeze him out, he KNOWS he is still getting to you. Your dark can't be cold, too.

The DB C I spoke with said that dark is not quite right, nor is dim. She suggest firefly: Bright/gone. Bright/gone. I still think dark is good and healing, but it should help you to not be so angry.

I have thought so much about forgiveness, and how difficult it is...I do think we have to think about how it is to be forgiven. When you've screwed up (OK, maybe not this bad but other times), think how you felt when someone forgave you.

Yes, your H is still with OW, but he has also done something my H has not done: admitted that it was not a good idea and that he is unhappy. So do not punish him with your lack of presence.

If you soften up to H and start being available, I believe you could see movement forward. I mean this in a gentle way, but Trusting, your dark seems cold, too. I relate to you completely and emotionally you often post things that I feel, too, but I am trying to be softer.

Hey Trusting.. I completely agree with Breton, who in fact, put it more eloquently than I had !

I agree, what I am picking up on, is that your dark is not working to heal you, you still seem angry and unforgiving and you perhaps need to work on that. I also, absolutely agree that your dark comes across as cold... and perhaps you ARE trying to punish him, or 'get' to him in the only way you know how.

And hand on heart, I think you hoped to provoke some reaction from him, or between him and ow, provoke some discord in his R, with the itching powder stunt.. and that, is a cheeseless tunnel.

The better way to 'get' to him, would to do as Breton suggests (and my DB coach said too.. and it IS yielding results in my sitch after 6 months with ow).. is to be a firefly.. give him a little bit of your prescence, be bright, beautiful, sparky, sunny, a little flash of what he once knew, the woman he once fell in love with... and then flit off again. Little snatches, dont overwhelm him, or yourself. You need to remind him of what he is missing, how can you do that with silence?? What do you have to lose by attempting some gentle friendship??

I also think you should let go of the vitriol toward ow.. she is not a 'whore', shes a human being like the rest of us. Perhaps it would be more healing for you to exercise some forgiveness toward her. I dont hate my ow, I just feel that she is not his soulmate and that her R with him is not even fair on HER, as my ex thinks about me all the time.

But reread Bretons post, because she totally summed it up far better than I could have!

Thanks for the advice guys, I do really appreciate it.

It made me think a lot about my sitch.

It made me really ask the hard question, "Do I really want my ex back?"