I think that our culture, and it is just my opinion, does not support families staying together, support the idea of for better or worse and dealing with whatever life send our way. You, sir are a knight in shining armour to still want your wife and family. When you are feeling better, physically, can you see your way to look at this situation as friends, thinking of what is best for each other, trusting each other even when it doesn't seem right.
I am hearing you say that the divorce is coming vs a separation? Is that correct? I thought a separation was a possibility for awhile.
Keep doing what you are doing. Remember you are friends, have been lovers, and are parents. You love her, she cares about you and the family, believe in whatever it takes right now.
Thank you for the kind words and words of encouragement.
Well, it was always divorce. I brought up the separation and she thought about it. She said that she would postpone the divorce for three months. I decided to stay put thinking that I could do more DB here than away. I had written her a letter explaining my reasons for separation vs. divorce, but didn't give it to her since I figured that I would take it on a month by month basis. If she holds off for three months, a lot can change and that letter may come off as badgering a point.
Today she has been extremely cold to me. One word answers. Never smiling. etc. But like I said, I am extremely ill so it may just be the way that I'm seeing it as well.
Before I bring up separating, I need to get her to the point of considering the possibility of reconciliation. I thought maybe she was there, but it doesn't seem so now.
Late next week she is going to Vegas to spend a few days with a friend of hers who moved there. She will return the following Monday. I think one night that week she gets back (seeing how things are)of sitting down and bringing up the separation. She will have returned from a vacation, perhaps she will clear her head a bit, and it will have been three weeks plus that she's been on the medication. She should feel some effects by then. If so, I will bring up the idea of taking a step back and away from the situation. I really think that she is in a place where she cannot see anything changing because she looks around her and only sees the misery she's in. And whether or not that misery stems from our marriage, out marriage has definitely been embedded into it.
I propose to her the following:
-Limited contact-Obviously, with the kids, we must have some contact. However, I will not contact her to see if she's changed her mind, if she misses me, to tell her I miss her, etc. This is time for her and I to do some true soul searching and reflect on life both with or without one another.
-The kids will be handled just as the would under her stipulations in the divorce. Though she hasn't signed or served anything, she has told me how custody will work. I, of course, will not agree or sign anything without having it explained to me by my lawyer. Not that I don't trust her, but I do not trust the legal system. There are lots of things I would be concerned with...for instance, how far are we allowed to move from one another? Can she just decide to move to California with my kids? I don't think she would do that, but life is tricky sometimes, and it's best to cover all your bases. But for now, I would agree that I would get the kids on such and such days, etc. I don't think there is a holiday in the near future of relevance, so that wont be an issue.
-Though I would think this would not have to be said, but since it's come up as a concern of hers, we will agree on what to tell the kids and will not waver from it. I will not speak anything negative of her or the situation, nor will I use the kids as "message bearers."
-During this time, we both need to find something we enjoy doing. This doesn't have to anything big or expensive, but it needs to be something enjoyable and completely free of our marriage. For instance, if I always wanted to go camping (which by the way, I haven't ) then this would be the time to do that. This time should be reflective, but it also should be a time to rediscover ourselves as well.
-I promise not to contact her friends or family to either plead my case or ask what they think of the situation. If any of them contact me, I will politely decline the conversation, as this is something between my wife an I and we each need our friends right now, and to hold such a conversation would violate that trust.
-Bills and debt will be divided just as she has stipulated in the proposed divorce. This in no way means that I agree to these stipulations, but I willing to abide by them during the time of the separation. During this time, I will also give her "child support."
-every couple of weeks or so, we will set aside a date that we will spend a day with the kids. We will spend that time as parents and help ease the kids through this transition.
-After the first month, we will set aside certain dates where we will spend time together without the kids. There will be limit as to how much time we can spend discussing the marriage/divorce/separation.
I had originally said 6 months. She postponed the divorce 3 months. If she is willing to do the separation, I would accept that we fulfill the remaining months of her agreed postponement with a option to extend it if need be.
I know that sounds really cold, but I really don't want her to give up. I want her to at least agree to the separation, but also would like her to open her mind to the possibility of reconciliation. In the way that I have set this up, all of her concerns have been addressed and there will be little difference between the divorce and the separation (except one keeps the door open, if only a crack). If she does not want to drag this out any longer, she really isn't as all I'm asking for is the time she already gave me. If after this time, she wants to extend it we can. If not, well the divorce process starts just as it would have anyway.
What do you think? I'm I setting myself up for disaster?
I think you are being reasonable and showing her you care. I really would hope that a separation could be reached because it is important to take your time making such an important decision. I read so many posts and hear so many people think that things will be better. They don't have the long term view that let them know that life doesn't really change the way they think.
I asked a few people to stop by and offer some support so if you see new posts or names, these are good people. They have been there for me and each other. All at different points. Hopefully two of the men will check in, they are good guys and can be very helpful.
Also, look up Ready2change, and Puppy DOg tails. Also, strong advisors to many here.
Her argument will be that she has gone through this for over three years now and that she has taken her time. But I don't see it that way since A)as recently as last november she asked to reconcile and B)for the last three years she would threaten divorce and then back off and do nothing.
Also, I really, truly believe that her depression has a lot to do with how she feels. I have been through bouts of depression (outside of the M) and I know that it can warp even the way you remember the past. I think that she is constantly reminded of her state of mind and since I have been laid off a)our financial situation is worse than ever and b) I am constantly around.
I think a separation may do wonders if we truly separate.
However, tonight I was speaking to a friend of mine and he told me that she was on the other line with him. When I talked to him again, he said that he really didn't want to say everything she said, but he was pretty sure that she was just done and really wants it over with. He said that she feels bad about the timing (with me being laid off), but she just doesn't feel anything for me anymore and though it eats her up inside to even think about having to do it, she just can't go on living like this.
...so much for not wanting to tell me what she said...
This sent me over the deep end for a second, but I was able to get a grip. When she came home I asked her a couple of questions (non-invasive stuff) and she gave me real quick snipped answers. I had printed out the letter and was going to give it to her. Then I thought I would just read it to her. Then I thought that I was being an idiot and folded it and put it in my pocket. I went to Osco and bought cold medicine and she was asleep by the time I got home.
I didn't give her the letter because I think under current circumstances it would only lead to disaster. I think waiting until she comes back from Vegas is the best bet. Right now she's stressed and not in the best mood. She's talking to everyone about the D and she seems extremely bent on doing it. I think if I ask for a separation right now, she'll shoot it down immediately and might even get that divorce train rollin' again. I think if I give the meds a couple of weeks to get started, let her go on her trip without the extra burden of the separation, and give her a little bit of space, I stand a much better chance. Plus tonight I was upset, not to mention sick, so I'm sure the whole thing would have played out as a big convoluted mess.
Tomorrow I have to go drop off an application and by the time I get back, she'll have taken the kids to school. I'm planning on stopping by parents to work on a paper I'm doing for my teaching cert until the evening. On Thursday we have parent teacher conferences and I leave for my class directly from there. I wont be back until after 11 PM, so there's little to worry about there. Friday is my B-day, so I really don't think she'll whip out anything big then. Sat I have the Illinois Basic Skills Test for the first half of the day and Sundays I usually take the kids so she can finish her stuff for her class on Monday. So really that only leaves Tuesday and Wednesday to occupy my time with. On that thursday she leaves for Nevada and will be back on Saturday. I was thinking that I would give her the letter on Sunday and tell her we'll talk on Tuesday. If she agrees I will leave on Wednesday. If she does not, I'll stay here and do my best to DB from here. But it has gotten to the point that everything I try to do here she just views as me scrambling to fix the M. My thought (or at least hope) is that if I continue to come across as holding up and being strong through this, and continue to 180 while still giving her space, she can see the possibility that the changes I am making are truly changes and not just efforts to stop the divorce. Then when I present the separation to her, perhaps she will be more open to it. Wish me luck.
This morning we woke up and she said that her and the kids were going to Ash Wednesday services and told me I could go along if I wanted. I did. After the services we went home and she told me that she had added me to her health insurance. She said "I know I gave you 90 days until the divorce, but just so you know the insurance runs through August, so you will still have to pay at least your portion through then."
While paying my portion doesn't upset me (just throw it on the pile), what upset me was the fact that she very plainly is speaking in terms of divorce. While I have not been served papers, it's almost as if she's counting down the days.
I really can't afford a DB coach right now, but I am feeling so lost and helpless. I keep working on the 180s and I also kept it together when she told me about the insurance. I asked her how much my portion was and I said okay.
I feel stuck right now, but I don't know what action to take. I don't want to make the wrong one and push her right into divorce. Logically, divorce makes no sense now. I've been laid off and she isn't working. She'll get help I'm sure, but we're barely making it as it is. That child support isn't going to cut it. Not only that, but what's left isn't going to cut it for me either. She isn't going to be able to work as she's starting student teaching, so even if I find a job there will be only one income and it will be a portion of that income. I'm willing to do what I have to for the kids, even if I have to move into my parents house and hand my entire check over. But I'm so upset and confused as to what I could have done that was so bad that she would willingly put us all in dire straights just to dissolve the piece of paper that says we're married. I know that she isn't capable of seeing that things will get better. But she has to see how things will get worse. And as strange as it sounds, the kids really have no idea anything is going on. This is going to shake them up pretty bad, not to mention the fact that we'll be intensifying an already bad financial situation and that is going to make for some rough times as well.
To be fair, she did at one time offer to allow me to live at the house after the divorce is finalized until she sells it, but I don't think that environment would be good for the kids. I know myself well enough that I could not do that. It would weigh on me too heavy and I wouldn't be able to keep it together. And since the divorce would be finalized, there would less inspiration to continue.
Sorry things feel threatening. Use the time you have to motivate her to want to change things. That is how change process works - you have to get the person to feel some motivation to want the change, then provide the options for making such a change, then you work on change and modify as you go based on what works.
Hope you feel better soon - this cold is going around here too, I had it two weeks ago - haven't been sick in years. Guess M problems bring out the worse case scenario in our bodies.
How are the kids reacting things? What do you see them noticing?
So far the kids are okay with it, but we have been very careful not to say or do anything in front of them. I don't think they really have any idea what's about to happen. But I am close with my kids and I think this might be worse because it's going to blindside them.
Today, after church, I pretty much stayed out of her way. She took the kids to school and I left to work on my paper. I plan to do the same tomorrow. I have parent/teacher conferences with the kids preschool tomorrow and then I leave straight to school from there.
Here's the part that I don't understand. For years now we have been living off of my income. We decided that it was best that if we could do it, someone should stay home with the kids. Since they are twins, if both of us worked, one of us would be working to pay daycare, which really wouldn't make much sense. However, in late December I got laid off (along with a whole lot of other Americans). She was able to get health insurance through her school. But now if she goes through with this, we are both going to be in a bad place financially. Even when I find another job, we were treading water to stay afloat as it was, and now she will get a portion of that income. She really cannot start work now as she will begin student teaching soon and that's already a full time job without pay. Plus the kids are only in school (preschool) for a few hours four days a week. I know she can get help with that, but I'm saying that in this market and at this time, it really doesn't make sense for her to work. But on top of it, when I do get a job, I will have bills that I will need to pay, not to mention the cost of rent, etc. So I will be knocked back pretty far and to be honest I don't think she'll fare much better.
However, if we can find a way to reconcile, we will be finished with school around the same time. By the standards of where we stood, we will be making twice the income than we ever had before. Plus we will teachers, so our hours and holidays will correlate nicely with the kids. I know that it isn't the best circumstance to stay together simply for financial reasons, but if I think that if she can just hang on a bit longer, we can pull ourselves out of this debt and can build a good life together. I think once we are live life without the constant shadow of financial strain hanging over our heads, she might find that she can rediscover those feelings that she thinks she lost.
But presently (and things change in an instant sometimes) she can't see that. But I just don't get why she is in such a rush to throw us into a financial ruin that will be difficult for both of us (though I admit, more so myself) to ever pull out of. We have come so far and so long, and now with light at the end of tunnel she wants to quit. If she has hung on this long, a bit longer cannot hurt. Even if when all is said and done she still wants the divorce, we will be in a better place financially and mentally for our children.
I guess my question is, how do I figure out how to motivate someone who seems deadset in the opposite direction?
You point out or rather get them to see how it works or doesn't work for them and then how much does it bother them? Bringing up ex like: I have tried to work out a budget, I find it tough and wonder how you have it figured? Our plans from the beginning put the kids' first, kids take a lot of money to keep up, will we be shortchanging them too much? We are both used to having back up with the kids and work - have you though about to manage kids and working fulltime? at the end of the day/night? Probing questions, just don't start a question with "why", use how, when, who, what. Think in terms of using words that get her to think before answering. You don't want pat answers - she needs to think in order to see what choices she is making and how it will affect everyone's lives forever. Ask her how she sees things working out separately in one year, five years, ten years down the road.
Today was a rough one as I had yet another person tell me that she was just "done" and that this divorce is inevitable. The person also told me that my wife was talking to her about returning the rings to knock down that debt.
Every day just gets bleaker.
Still, I held up and kept at it.
When my wife came home she was very short and snippy with me. I asked her what was wrong and she said "nothing." After some more of her storming around and sighing and I asked her again and she said "Nothing's wrong." So I asked her why she was acting that way and she said "I'm cleaning."
I left for my class and when I called from break to say goodnight to the kids she was extremely short and snippy then too. On my way home she asked me if I could pick something up and I said that I could and before I could go on she said "bye" and hung up. When I got home I gave her what I picked up and she said "Just set it there, I'll get it." and went upstairs. Even at our worst she'd say hello to me. Something seems to be going on but I have no idea what. I'm not going to crowd her or ask her again, I'm just going to let it go. If she's mad about something I'm sure I'll hear about it.
Tomorrow is my birthday and my parents had invited us over. I asked her this morning and she declined. She said she was uncomfortable going to my parents house now, but said I could take the kids. I understand why she would be uncomfortable, however, she is going to have to have some communication with them eventually. My parents are obviously upset with the situation, but they care about her very much. My mother is extremely upset, not just for me, but because she loves her. Remember, we've been very close on one level or another for over half of out lives. This is taking its toll on everyone.
Sorry it won't be the way you would like it to be, but enjoy it with the rest of the family you have. I don't have any family left and they can be very supportive at a time like this. Gives you some continuity. Remember it is your day today. Celebrate you and when getting ready you can always give your W another chance to come with all of you. Would your mother call her to personally welcome her under the circumstances?
) then this would be the time to do that. This time should be reflective, but it also should be a time to rediscover ourselves as well.