You make me smile, you really do. Mistress Butt-Kickin One... yep, that's me alright. Got my butt kicked myself here recently... know the feeling.
I'm doing really well, thanks for asking. I posted an update here on the 'blow up.' I won't take up space repeating it here if you want to go take a look... but things are doing much better.
I'm glad to hear that you still have the counselor route in mind. That's very good.
Quote: I think its been a couple weeks since my wife last suggested that another woman would be more satisfying for me and that it would be ok with her if I had someone to help me with my "needs". I know she is sincere when she says this (she never says it in anger) and truly believes that she would be fine with it BUT I know her better than she knows herself and I know that it would screw up our relationship.
You know it would SCREW UP your relationship? As in, it's not scrwed up now?
I don't know, I guess the reason I asked is because I was goin to suggest the next time she says something like that to you, you look her in the eye and say:
"You know, it's funny you should mention that. You've suggested that before and I've started giving it a lot of thought. I think I might know someone, and if you really don't think you'd mind, I think I'm going to pursue it. It will take up a lot of my time, I'm sure, so I'm going to expect you to be understanding when I start spending more time away from home."
And then walk out of the room.
I know, that's probably not the best advice I could ever give, and I'm not saying you should actually DO that... just spend a few evenings reading at the local book store or something, but sometimes I think the unwilling partners need a little dose of their own medicine. I don't think they realize just how cruel and hurtful such 'encouragements' are, you know?
While I totally understand the sentiment of saying that to her( and I’ve even had those thoughts plenty of times), that would be too freaky for me to say to her and I don’t believe it would be productive.The reality is that there really is an old girlfriend that has declared that if I were available she would take me back without question...the scary part is that we are extremely compatible in many realms, including the physical and I’ve thought about her fondly over the years. It would be too comfortable to slip into, I must keep it totally off limits.
My wife knows that we were very close and that she(the ex) was open to being with me at one point. In fact, the wife has asked me several times if there was any possibility that she would take me back since we stopped communicating a year ago. My answer has been "NO absolutely not", although I know my ex would, in fact, welcome me with very open arms...and more. I don’t want my wife to think for a minute that there is a real possibility however because then she will encourage me to pursue that opening. This probably sounds strange, it’s like my wife has been really pushing me to find someone else, even saying that she was going to find me a f***friend herself. Really bizarre stuff. I can’t even pretend like there is an open door there.
It would REALLY screw things up. It’s only screwed up from my perspective right now, she's fine with our relationship; and there are so many good aspects to the relationship and the fact that we have a son still at home for several more years that I’m not willing to sacrifice even for my own well-being. I know that someday someone else or other conditions could make that decision for me and I wouldn’t be able to do much about it, at least my conscience will be clean, knowing that I didn’t walk out on my family (at least physically).
Man, if our sex life was reasonably closer to my needs I would be a very balanced and happy individual. You can’t believe how pissed off it makes me to have intimacy matter so much to me, I can’t help it, it matters a ton. When our sex life is not so smooth then its all I can think about, when it is smooth, then I much less obsessed with it.
If I actually said something along the lines of what you said I would have to be ready to back it up with the real deal. It would be an extremely risky crap shoot, a last ditch effort. I would have to be at the point where I was willing to lose my family. On the other hand, it is so crazy, it might just work to snap her back to reality. I don’t know. I’m afraid to take that risk.
There is a gem here that needs to be refined, however:
“sometimes I think the unwilling partners need a little dose of their own medicine. I don't think they realize just how cruel and hurtful such 'encouragements' are, you know? “
As always, I appreciate your comments and those of others.
I like Corri's suggestion but instead of saying anything to her why not just plant the seeds by your actions? Do things that will make her wonder if you have taken her up on her offer. Work late, have someone call the house and then hang up, become secretive about your where abouts....you know all those things that happen when someone else is in the picture. See if acting like you might have someone gets a reaction out of her.
I gotta tell you, it's a strange situation AchingMan. I read your stuff and you remind me so much of myself. The depression and anxiety and figuring out how to make it work and at the same time do without something you desire so desperately that it feels like a need. The one thing my ex never did though was suggest I find someone else to take care of my needs. In fact he would have been downright destroyed if I had.
I want to ask you a question that might be hurtful and I'm sorry but have you thought that maybe she has no romantic feelings for you? I find it incomprehensible that someone could suggest that the person they love find that sort of comfort somewhere else. Have you ask her how she would be able to live knowing you were sharing that with another woman? I admire you desire to stay for your child, I think it is the honorable thing to do. The thing I remember about my ex was the level of love and desire I felt for him. I think what played a huge role in those feelings was the fact that is was just out of reach. I was enticed by something I knew I couldn't have. I can look back now....five years later and see that him keeping me at arms length only made me feel I had to work harder to get that prize that was just out of reach. It nearly destroyed me...the hanging on and hoping things would change when nothing would have ever changed at all no matter what I did because he had no romantic feelings for me at all.
I think you have got to figure out is what you are fighting so hard for is really worth the fight you are putting into it. If I had been able to see my marriage then as clearly as I can see it now I would have been able to put focus on what I needed to be happy instead of so much focus on him and him one day giving me what I needed to be happy. You may be looking for something from her that she just does not have to give. I learned that the depression and anxiety I suffered had little to do with his rejection of me but my refusal to accept it for what it was and to let go of a need for a man who could not need me or anyone else. Your emotional well-being seems to be wrapped up in whether or not she will ever desire you at an appropriate level. You should not be investing so much of yourself in the actions of another person. You are giving her too much power in your life. It really isn't worth in the long run. Your little boy would tell you that. He wants his Dad at home with him, he doesn't want his Dad suffering needlessly over the actions of someone else. Find a way to make yourself whole and complete without her, maybe then she will start paying attention. Cathy
Your words have sunk in very deeply. You have simply put into words the whirlwind of thoughts that have been in my head. You are right in implying that my wife may never be able to give me what I need. This has been the saddest thought, that is to consider that we may never reconnect the precious passionate love that we once shared a very long time ago.
Your question itself is not really hurtful since I’ve become used to dealing with that concept. She has told me outright many times, with sincerity and gentleness, that she has very little (or none?) romantic feelings for me, or anyone else for that matter. This is the cornerstone of her defense regarding the loss of intimacy in our relationship. She states that she is simply asexual, incapable of sexual affection and has no need to find it again. These kinds of statements are so incapacitating. When she says these kinds of things I am completely flabbergasted, in shock. What can you say to something like that?
There are some strange contradictions in this situation. While she states that she thinks I would be better off with another woman that deserves me, she acts somewhat jealous at times, asking suspiciously about bruises on my shoulders (love bites in her mind) or other “suspicious” behaviors or items. At times I feel like she is probing me, planting seeds to see if I “break” or “spill the beans” about the women she already suspects I am seeing. She has a way of making me feel almost guilty for affairs that don’t even exist! I actually get nervous when she starts interrogating me, which, no doubt, makes her believe I am cheating on her, when I am not. Very bizarre, I tell ya.
Like you described your ex, I know that she would also be “destroyed” if she find out I was with someone else, even though she has told me several times to do that very thing.
She is a wonderful person, don’t get me wrong. I know she honestly wants me to be happy, from this come the suggestions for finding another woman that is capable of loving me the way I need. She must have absolutely no concept of what an incredible joy we are missing out on. I am capable of giving so much, putting such passionate spark into a relationship, it is strange to have to hold myself back, restraining the desire and gifts of my love. You would think that with so much frustration and resentment that has built up over the years that I would not feel the love that I do. She melts the anger with one kiss, I'm crazy about her. She even wonders how I can love her so much, how I can still feel my heart jump when she walks into the room. Damn folks, wouldn't most ladies melt for a guy that feels this way about his wife? I just don't f********ing get it. Pardon my censored Français.
I feel like I’m also being kept at arms length (emotionally), although she is eager and willing to hug me (both a blessing and a curse!) and we hug on a daily basis. The thing that hurts is when I get closer to kiss her lips she turns her head so my kiss gets planted on the cheek. If I try to give her more than 3-4 kisses even on the cheek she starts getting quite agitated and says not to overwhelm her.
Adopting my wife’s perspective, my son sees the way I reach out for her or look at her with “that sparkle” as the uncontrolled behavior of a horny pervert that is obsessed with women. It kills me to see his concept of sexuality being formed in such a twisted perspective. I’m hoping that as his hormones start really kicking in he’ll understand what it’s like to desire.
Finding a way “to make myself whole and complete without her” is definitely all that I can do. However, the pain of losing a loved one is not easily recovered from, whether it is from death, divorce or emotional/intimate separation. Who can honestly say that they don’t need their spouse for happiness? Let’s be frank, it’s BS to think that we can be complete if we suddenly or slowly, over the years, lose our loved one. Sexual divorce is definitely a loss of an important aspect of one of the most significant relationships we can experience as humans. It takes a very long time to recover from any kind of loss and when we continue to live with the person that we’ve ”lost” then we are trapped in frozen state that is impossible to completely leave, in order to move ahead with our lives and find new happiness solely within ourselves.
I hope what I’m trying to say makes sense.
Any thoughts?
I’m going to invite my wife out to dinner tonight, hopefully we’ll have a chance to chat about our situation, she doesn't like to discuss it and prefers to talk about her issues with friends and work. I’m still looking for some clue to the reason she lost her sparkle for me. Maybe one of y'all will see past the cloud that is filtering my vision into the problem.
Quote: While she states that she thinks I would be better off with another woman that deserves me,
Quote: Like you described your ex, I know that she would also be “destroyed” if she find out I was with someone else, even though she has told me several times to do that very thing. Aman, somewhere a WAW admitted she told H to move on, many times and when he did she admits she did not want him to, and says she could not believe herself saying it.
So DB golden rule "NONE WHAT THEY SAY, HALF WHAT THEY DO"
Boy, do I hear you! Things are essentially the same here, except that my wife has never suggested that I should go somewhere else. Of course, if I did you'd be liable to be reading a headline soon after something like "Man visciously slain by jealous wife..."
As for romantic feelings, the clue light came on a little while back. The fact that it took 18 years speaks to my level of density. Even before we were married, my wife would tell me that she didn't care about how I looked. Understand, I'm 5'9" and 120 lbs, not exactly Governor-elect Aahnold; we're not talking grooming & hygiene here. As you can imagine, after about 20 years of harrassment on the subject by every Tom, Dick & Harry and turn-downs for dates, that sounded pretty good. The point here is what I really heard her saying was "I don't mind" -- ie, my physique (or lack thereof) wasn't a turn-off.
Guess what! When she said "I don't care" she meant "I don't care!" In other words, there was no sexual attraction there. Wanting to be together, common interests, etc. were present, but not passion. Worse than that, though, is that there isn't anything I can do to spark any. I could drink protein powder and pump iron 8 hours every day until I did look like "a manly man" but it wouldn't matter. "I don't care" is the bottom line. In this case, my mistake was NOT believing what she said. So like you, I live on the scraps that fall from the master's table and try to stay sane the rest of the time.
Sorry about the vent. The real reason I wanted to post was to repeat something I posted on one of Sooner's threads. In reference to finding a counselor,I agree that poking your finger in the yellow pages doesn't seem to be an appropriate method. I do have two suggestions, however. The first is to go to the website of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists; there's a "Find a Therapist link" from that page. In fact, I'll jump out of this post momentarily and find it for you...
The other suggestion I would offer is to check to see if any Colleges or Universities near you offer graduate programs in counseling, marriage & family relations, etc. When we were looking for a counselor for our son, we were referred to such a program at a local college. They had a program where advanced students provide counseling services -- supervised by the professional staff (one-way glass, closed-circuit video, etc.). You get near-professional level services for a much reduced fee; I don't know what your finances are like, but it was a big driver for us. The staff also had a phone in the session room, so if there was something the student missed or was having difficulty with they could intervene or make suggestions in real time. It worked out well for us (not that we could move on to the marriage side of the equation, but that wasn't the student's fault). So you might want to think about going that route as well.
Anyway, good luck!!
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
Quote: She states that she is simply asexual, incapable of sexual affection and has no need to find it again. These kinds of statements are so incapacitating. When she says these kinds of things I am completely flabbergasted, in shock. What can you say to something like that?
I think how one would respond would depend on the context in which the statement is made. My ex told me he loved me but just did not know what the big deal about sex was. My sister told me that she has no "romantic feelings" for her husband....that it wouldn't bother her if they never had sex again but that she can't imagine her life without him. Why do people allow their feelings for the one they marry to get to that point? How do they get to the point that they need to separate sex from the relationship? My sister and her huband have no children so she focused on her career. It takes up a great amount of time and energy and it's my opinion that she had to let go of that aspect of her relationship with her husband to retain the level of energy she needed for her job. I wonder about your wife. What is her focus on? Is she feeling a need to shut down in that particular aspect of her life so she can keep up in something she feels is more important right now? I know some women do this once they become mothers.
Quote: She has a way of making me feel almost guilty for affairs that don’t even exist! I actually get nervous when she starts interrogating me, which, no doubt, makes her believe I am cheating on her, when I am not. Very bizarre, I tell ya.
How does the guilt you feel when she questions you cause you to react to her "probing?" She seems to say one thing and then seek out proof that you are not actually acting on what she says. I agree, it is very contradictory.
Quote: You would think that with so much frustration and resentment that has built up over the years that I would not feel the love that I do. She melts the anger with one kiss, I'm crazy about her. She even wonders how I can love her so much, how I can still feel my heart jump when she walks into the room. Damn folks, wouldn't most ladies melt for a guy that feels this way about his wife? I just don't f********ing get it. Pardon my censored Français
Well, I'll be honest with you, I'm not sure how I would react if I knew someone constantly wanted me or felt that level of desire for me. I think it might cause me to feel responsible for that person's happiness which would cause me to withdraw. It would feel like a tremendous burden to me. There is that "thrill of the chase" thing also. No one wants what they know they don't have to work for. I have a feeling that if she were ready, willing and hot to trot every time you made a move that you would find yourself losing a little interest also. I think my level of desire for my ex was directly related to the fact that he was so hard to get. You might want to think about that...is all that love and desire causing some unitended consequences?
Quote: Adopting my wife’s perspective, my son sees the way I reach out for her or look at her with “that sparkle” as the uncontrolled behavior of a horny pervert that is obsessed with women. It kills me to see his concept of sexuality being formed in such a twisted perspective. I’m hoping that as his hormones start really kicking in he’ll understand what it’s like to desire
How do you know that your son percieves it as perverted that you desire his mother? Has he told you this or are you just transfering your fear onto him. If you and your wife hug and are affectionate in front of your son then I'm sure that what he is seeing are his parents show love. I'm pretty sure you aren't walking around with horny pervert stamped on your forehead.
Quote: Finding a way “to make myself whole and complete without her” is definitely all that I can do. However, the pain of losing a loved one is not easily recovered from, whether it is from death, divorce or emotional/intimate separation. Who can honestly say that they don’t need their spouse for happiness? Let’s be frank, it’s BS to think that we can be complete if we suddenly or slowly, over the years, lose our loved one.
You equate whether or not you have a wife with the amount of sex you have with your wife? I think what might be holding you back or maybe even causing your pain to be worse is this "losing a loved one" thinking. I know all the arguments about sex being only 10% if the marriage is good and 90% if the marriage is bad...due to sexual issues anyway. You seem to feel though that if the sexual issues do not get better then you have lost her completely. It would be a loss of one aspect of your relationship with her but not your complete relationship. It would be the loss of something that you feel is enormously important and a very painful loss but it would not be a complete loss of your loved one. It is painful to see any aspect of the relationship change, especially one that gave us great pleasure. Maybe that is something that needs to happen so that other aspects of the relationship can grow. Maybe there needs to be growth in other aspects of the relationship before the loss can be recovered. Who says that her attitude right now is a permanent state of mind?
Quote: Sexual divorce is definitely a loss of an important aspect of one of the most significant relationships we can experience as humans. It takes a very long time to recover from any kind of loss and when we continue to live with the person that we’ve ”lost” then we are trapped in frozen state that is impossible to completely leave, in order to move ahead with our lives and find new happiness solely within ourselves.
I think how any of us choose to look at, feel about, or handle a loss is completely up to us. This is so intensely important to you that you might be viewing it as to be all, end all thing that breaks any kind of bond you have with your wife. It may be the very thing you feel like you need as a husband to continue to feel a bond with her. Have you thought that maybe your attitude and the level of importance that you are choosing to put on this aspect of the relationship at this time is what is causing most of the pain? I don't really think you need to find new happiness solely within yourself but I think you might want to think about finding happiness with her that does not henge on how often you have sex or how much you feel she desires you. Once again I want to stress to you this point...your belief that you need her to connect to you in that way may be the very thing that is getting in the way of her connecting with you in that way. I'm not being critical cause believe me, I understand how you are feeling. It was very important to me that my ex desire me...that is how I showed my love for him and it was what I thought I needed in return to feel loved. Your wife does not equate sex with love. I believe though that those who are feeling their needs met as far as being loved are more open sexually. Those that are feeling pressured...if nothing more than a kiss....are more likely to withdraw and stay stuck.
Quote: I’m still looking for some clue to the reason she lost her sparkle for me.
I doubt seriously that even she knows where the "sparkle" has gone. She might be able to make up plenty of excuses for her feelings....I'm busy, stressed out at work, the kids keep me run down." All sorts of things could be the reason in her mind. I imagine all she knows is that it is gone and she has no idea how to get it back. We tend to put off things that aren't easily answered. I hope your dinner went well and that you were able to talk but I'm curious...how often do you have these talks with her? When you talk about the "situation" is it always in relation to the lack of sex? What, if anything, does she believe the problems are in the relationship? When you talk to her what words do you use? Do you tell her you feel like you have lost her? Do you tell her you would give anything to have her back? Are you saying things to her that might make her believe you equate her and the importance of her in your life with the amount of sex you have with her?
These are just thoughts that I have. Things that pop out at me and when I view it the way your wife might it makes me wonder how your desperate need to have her back might make her feel. Not sure my thoughts will be of any help. Cathy
My wife definitely sees sex as an occasional treat, when everything’s perfect and she feels like it. We are both very busy and often tired at the end of the day. When I’ve had a hard day and I’m tired I NEED sex to relax me; when she’s had a hard day (every day, of course) she doesn’t want to have any more “pressures” like sex. For her, sex is a chore that she refuses to do 99% of the time. For me, sex and love are intertwined, one isn’t complete without the other, I’m not talking about love for my son or how I love cappuccinos, I’m talking about the intimate spiritual exchange love that one experiences with your partner only.
I have contemplated the “playing hard to get” concept of getting her attention but I simply have not been able to pull it off. Whenever I try to act like I don’t care about it either way she either sees right through my smokescreen or thinks I’m giving her the cold shoulder because I don’t love her anymore or I’m cheating. I agree with you that she might want to do the pursuing instead of being pursued, however, whenever I give her the time to do it nothing happens. I am convinced that if I never initiated sex again, we would never have sex again. I feel trapped in this loop.
I simply am not important enough for her to be willing to put any extra effort into rebuilding our romance. That hurts like hell.
I think if I lived in another house or only saw her every few weeks or so she would find her feelings for me again, as long as we maintained that distance so she wouldn’t get bored with me. Obviously, this is not a reasonable solution, given that we have a son that would be distressed by this “separation”.
Regarding my son adopting his mother’s perspective on sex,I can tell from the fact that when ever I look at her with “that sparkle”, try to touch her, hug her or kiss her he rolls his eyes and says “obsessed pervert!!“ It is totally clear that he is jealous of my attraction to her. He tries to physically separate us when we do hug, which gets all of us into a nasty mood and usually leads to arguments. He is never that way when I spend time alone with him, in that case he is a sweet little boy again.
Almost by definition (at least by traditional standards) one of the key elements to marriage is sexual intimacy, therefore when one spouse withholds this from the other it is a violation of the marriage itself. When this happens you become housemates, not spouses.
You’re right that she doesn’t seem to know where the “sparkle” went. She assumes that simply getting married killed the passion, that romance in marriage is not realistic after a certain point.
Dinner was fine, I guess, didn’t go anywhere productive, in terms of discussing relationship stuff but the food was good.
I have such a hard time listening or talking about mundane daily stuff when I’m thinking inside “we’re in a crisis, how can we possibly chat about politics, the weather and a friend’s problems when our issues are so overwhelming?” I hate to pressure her so I keep my despair to myself and try to keep the conversation floating.
I have asked her many times what she is missing from me or what are the areas of problem from her viewpoint. She doesn’t come up with much other than the sexual hounding that pressures her. She says she really can’t imagine being with another man as kind and wonderful as me, yet she is totally selfish in sharing her body with me. I just can’t fathom this.
I am still fairly confident that her loss of desire for me is mainly physical, that is her hormones are not functioning in a healthy manner. Until she decides to seek help for our situation, I am stuck in no man’s land, waiting, hoping, wondering.
I’m not a very good actor so putting on this “hard to get, not-that-interested-anyway” show is difficult; I always break down after a month or so.
Quote: I am still fairly confident that her loss of desire for me is mainly physical, that is her hormones are not functioning in a healthy manner. Until she decides to seek help for our situation, I am stuck in no man’s land, waiting, hoping, wondering.
Hi AM:
Maybe I missed it, but why *hasn't* your W seen a doctor?
"Maybe I missed it, but why *hasn't* your W seen a doctor?"
She hasn't seen a doctor regarding her loss of libido because it is not a problem for her, she doesn't see any reason to fix something that doesn't need fixing. She doesn't want to enjoy sex again. In fact, she doesn't want to take any medication, even if it means a better life for both of us.
How can such a well educated intelligent woman be so ignorant and blind?
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