Man, I have to hunt you up all over the place. We're starting a thread just for you so I don't have to troll all over the damn place scrounging you up.
Okay. I didn't really have any material from you to read when I got back, so...let's start at the beginning.
Did you go see your doctor?
Did you find a therapist?
Did you at least buy the book I recommended?
Have you done even 10 sit ups?
Remember, you are on the honor system here.
C'mon, I'm hauling my slightly plump backside to the gym starting Tuesday (my kiddies head back to school then - YES! Love them dearly, don't you know, but, well...YES!)
You and VAnot4lovers must GET OVER fixing your wives. It ain't gonna happen, man, I'm telling you. Love them all you want, but fixing 'em just ain't in the cards. It just doesn't work that way.
I could be wrong, 'cuz Lord knows I have been before, you've got exactly three choices from which to choose.
1) Do nothing and be miserable.
2) Take the next year, starting tomorrow, and completely concentrate your energies on yourself.
3) Get out of your marriage.
Option one you've tried. Fun, isn't it?
Option three is quite the radical move, and it certainly won't be producing good, satisfying, intimate sex with your wife.
Believe it or not, option two has the most potential for you, and it also takes the most work. But I already pounded on you with my thoughts on this one, so I won't repeat myself.
CHANGE THE PATTERN OF YOUR BEHAVIOR WITHIN YOUR MARRIAGE. (Where is that can of Whomp Ass I brought home with me from vacation....)
How long have you been married? When did things go south? How many kids do you have? How old? Why do you not have a lot of time to yourself, not even to read a short book?
Fess up, let's hear it. Talk to me. Not about HER and what she isn't doing...but about you.
Don't be so subtle, what do you really think? Seriously, it sounds like you've been talking with AM for some time and are much more familiar with the particulars of his sitch than I am. I'm not sure I see other options, either, and I agree that #1 doesn't help and #3 is a non-option. Trouble is, I have been trying #2 and it doesn't seem to be working significantly better. I guess I haven't found the right flavor of change. But as you set this thread up for AM, I'll retreat back to mine now. (Are you sure you didn't have that can of WA the whole time?) Welcome back!
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
You don't have to retreat...I'm just leaving a bread trail for the man...
Yes, I am blunt as a butter knife. I try not to be...sorry if I trod a little too heavy.
I'm not real sure what AM's story is because he keeps talking about his wife, so I'm trying to get him to open up about himself. He's so worried about her, I'm having a hard time getting a bead on the man.
As for you, it sounds to me as though you are facing multiple issues on multiple levels. And it sounds as though you're wife is dealing with so many of them, you're having a hard time knowing where to begin.
You have made the decision to be committed to your marriage. That's fantastic, and it's a real hard one to come to grips with, because it always lurks in the back of our minds when we hit the rough road.
If your wife cannot or will not go to therapy, I personally think you should go by yourself. I really think you need someone in your corner who can help you understand the multiple complexities you are facing. If you continue to try and 'help' your wife (and I know you are doing it because you love her), you are going to push her deeper into depression. Sometimes, I feel the most loving thing we can do for those we love, is to leave them alone for a bit. It's tough to do. It is so easy to see the road someone else is on when you've got an arial view of it....as you do. But she doesn't have the view you do...and it sounds as though she is just damn weary. Let her rest for a time.
Please find a shrink, if you aren't in counseling already (are you?). If you've been before, go back, or find a new one. It will give you something to do.
It sounds as though your batteries need to be recharged as well. But because you are dealing with some serious issues just beyound a lack of sex in your marriage, I think the most loving thing you can do for yourself is to find expert help.
Speaking only for myself, you weren't trodding too hard, and I was trying to answer with a sense of irony. Surprisingly, I actually was laughing as I read through your post; I'm not sure that would always be my reaction, but that's just the way it struck me.
Quote: As for you, it sounds to me as though you are facing multiple issues on multiple levels. And it sounds as though you're wife is dealing with so many of them, you're having a hard time knowing where to begin.
Amen to that. What makes it worse is that her responses tend to fluctuate, so what might be a "safe" subject on one occasion draws "the evil eye" (or worse) the next time it comes up. Also, since we don't seem to be able to get our expectations sync'd up, I can proceed for a considerable time on a path I think is working well, and then some little thing will be a "last straw" and I'll find out I've been on the wrong road the whole time and the resentment of my "error" has finally broken through the dam. Part of that is that she really lets fly at that point, and while she generally apologizes a day or two later, and I do think her apology is sincere, she has said some things so caustic that they leave permanent scars.
This past year has been a particularly stressful one for our entire family. Certainly a fair part of the blame for that falls on me and my sub-par time management skills. Not as an excuse, but as a contributing factor, a little over a year ago I had myself checked for Attention Deficit Disorder -- both our oldest and youngest children have it and are being treated -- and sure enough they got it from Dad. Our oldest son is also depressed, and our middle son is suffering from an anxiety disorder, so you can tell that it can get rather interesting around here at times.
Getting back to the ADD, part of the problem is that once I started treatment, I was able to focus better; in fact, I often had difficulty un-focusing. And guess what I couldn't un-focus on? Yep, you guessed it. In fact, that's the reason I started on some low-dose SSRI, to help with that particular "side-effect" of the ADD meds.
This also leads back to the therapy question. To address that, we were getting family counseling for a time -- mainly for our "anxious" son, but they believe in a whole-family approach -- and that did help some with the overall family dynamic. But that ended about a year ago for a variety of reasons. I have dealt in some small ways with the psychiatrist our son sees, as he also does my ADD meds along with our son. Part of that is a built-in excuse to have to go see him. But not formal therapy for just for myself, at least not yet. That's in book territory, and I need to re-read SSM here in the near future, as well as get through the DR book. Then I guess we'll see.
Well, I'm online now because I came home early to take my daughter to the Dr. for her med check before school starts and it's time to go. Thanks.
P.S. AM, I don't mean to hog "your" thread. I hope this is helpful for you as well.
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
Ok, sorry I went bouncing around all over the place, I was not in a decent frame of mind. I am feeling a little better some of the time and crappy some of the time.
I have been able to pull it all together so here are my responses:
No doctor. I called to make an appointment and he was ironically on vacation. I at least got a chuckle of irony. He should be back this week. Been taking ST John wort everyday for stress, not sure if it is working.
Been looking for a therapist but I don’t know anybody that is going (a recommendation from a friend would be helpful). It seem out of range for me to afford ($50-125/session). I’m not sure if there are inexpensive therapists, other than churchy councellors (did that a long time ago--shudder!!).
I did buy the book but haven’t had a chance to read it. I wouldn’t feel comfortable reading it in my wife’s presence so that makes it difficult as I only have an hour or 2 of “free time” before lights out. It is smaller than I was expecting so I am planning to read it between taking the kid to school, practices, whatever. I may just go towards work an hour early in the morn and read it at the coffeeshop.
I know that I need to make a huge lifestyle change. Or many small changes within an overall new direction. I know this but it is just so difficult when I am feeling so overwhelmed. It is the chicken and egg deal. I know I need to kick my asss in gear and get back in shape, physically, mentally, emotionally. I have made so many attempts at fresh starts, sincerely making the effort only to get sidetracked by work problems or home problems. A lot of my inability to handle the home frustration is compounded by career questions and difficulties. There are some big changes that I know would help me there but I can’t go that way because of the hardship my family would have to deal with.
I came to the conclusion that I need choice #2, last week but feel so overwhelmed by this daunting task. Unfortunately, instead of going berserk and getting pissed and taking action when I’m frustrated or depressed, I shut down, go into hibernation mode, become paralyzed. One thing is for certain, if I do begin concentrating my energies on myself, my family will not be getting as much from me. I spend most of my non work time taking care of family stuff: kid to school, fixing up the house, etc. In spite of the fact that my wife in not inclined to romance she seems to enjoy spending time with me, as long as I don’t get frisky.
Here is my first post, which I describe my sitch which might be helpful for you to understand. Maybe you’ve already read it.
Here’s a few basics:
Lontime horndog 36 yrs old, wife is 34 been married around 15 yrs wife got pregnant a week after getting married (surprise!) 1 awesome son romance/sex problems since the wedding night, overall getting worse over time, with a few short cycles of positive sex (3-4 times/month for 3-6 months, reasonable interest on her part) vasectomy last year
FIRST POST: I wrote it after reading Sooner's story which struck such a powerful chord in me that I decided to sign up with this forum. I'm dying inside, my longing for a passionate love affair with my wife is tearing me apart. It's insane to have to fantasize about your own spouse instead of acting on those thoughts. Anyway, any ideas from y'all will be really appreciated. I'm at the end of my rope.
I'm shaking and freaking out after reading your story, Sooner1992, because it is almost as if I had written it. So many of the details are my experience as well. I totally feel for you and in some wrong oblique way it is comforting to know that there are others who are dealing with the frustrations that have been tearing me apart from the inside out. I'm almost in a panic to respond to everything that has been said in many of these messages. I want to cry but I can't, I can only feel utterly profound sadness eating away at my heart. There are people that have worse situations than me, including you, Sooner. My story has a few perplexing twists to it, which I'll try to express.
First, let me apologize ahead of time for my attitude, I’m just so frustrated.
Currently on average we have sex 1.23567 times per month and it's pretty decent about half the time, but then when you're starving anything seems wonderful. Still, for me it is overwhelming and it is affecting the rest of my life. I now deal with bouts of depression, self doubt, panic attacks, listlessness, fatigue, anxiety, inability to perform at work, sleeplessness, high blood pressure...the ugly list goes on. Some days I actually get chest pain and feel lightheaded and dizzy when I get the rejection or get caught in the downward spiral of contemplating the problem.
I'm a kind sensitive guy (gaining an ugly edge of cynicism and sarcasm) with average looks, weight and build in his mid 30's. My wife is a few years younger than me and the sexiest creature on the earth. I absolutely adore her. I still feel as passionately about her as I did almost 15 years ago when we married. She has a body that most women would die to have (and men, but in a different way!) She works out a few times a week and dresses very stylishly, but not overly done. She's funny, intelligent, well-educated, thoughtful and sweet. Frankly, I get aroused when she walks into the room or just hearing her voice on the phone. In her viewpoint this makes me a pervert and overly sexual person. Unfortunately, her sexual spark for me faded very quickly, probably due to getting pregnant with our son a week after getting married. We never got to be a couple before we were a family. I think this was the beginning of the trouble. Before we got married we had a wild sex life. We would make love for hours. It's hard to imagine the effort we would go to just to make love. Now it's an occasional fairly quick event, more of something she does just when her chemistry is working (once a month, basically) or to satisfy my begging. The in between is incredibly painful and makes the month drag. Sometimes 2-3 months will pass without any intimacy. I go insane!!
I totally understood the "Ferrari" analogy. Since we are talking about starvation on this site mine might appropriate: that you've been invited to live and banquet with the king so you sell all of your possessions and burn every bridge behind you. There's no going back. When you get to the castle the king doesn't give you any food for months or a scrap here and there but makes you sit at his table every night and watch the royalty gorging themselves on an incredible feast. If you complain he throws you in the dungeon for a few days to sober you up. When you're finally broken he lets you come back to the table and if you're really behaving well you can crawl under the table and eat whatever has fallen between the cracks. You're no longer allowed to leave the castle and no one is allowed to give you anything on the side. This cycle continues for a decade and a half.
So far it sounds pretty much like what a lot of others have talked about on this site. Here's the frustrating twist. My wife thinks I'm a great person and a dear friend. She can't imagine being with any other man and we tell each other that we love each other at least everyday. I'm hopelessly romantic and used to shower her with praises and compliments until she started getting more irritated at me for telling her how gorgeous she is and how much I desire her. We like a lot of the same things and laugh and joke quite a bit. We go out for lunch every week and a dinner and movie or a play most weekends. We’re both pretty busy with professional careers but isn’t everybody? I’m getting so tired of hearing that she’s had a stressful day so she’s not in the mood. Life is stressful and tiring, people still have a sex life! She rarely wants to kiss me and not passionately. It’s not that I don’t enjoy a peck on the cheek; it’s just that I need a lot more. She likes to hug, which is both delicious and excruciating at the same time since I’m dying for it to lead to more later on. She likes to have me caress her in a non-sexual way, which kills me (refer to the feast analogy!), she likes to spoon and practically sleeps half on top of me. How can a man have a woman that he’s extremely in love with and attracted to touching him and not get aroused? I’m going out of my mind! As soon as I initiate I get flat out rejection and then a nasty mood to tip toe around for a while. If I bring it up (gently and sensitively, of course) to discuss my sexual frustration she gets irritated and angry. She says I’ve just got to deal with it or find someone else. I don’t understand this. I know she really doesn’t want me to leave her and I definitely don’t want someone else, I just want her, I want to see that flame of desire return to her eyes. The key to a man’s heart is make him feel desired.
I’ve tried getting her to take aphrodisiacs, no way. She won’t consider therapy because from her perspective there’s nothing wrong. She believes that I am over sexual and need to masturbate (I actually have a difficult time being interested enough in just an orgasm to masturbate) or read poetry to deal with my frustration. In her viewpoint, the only problem is the fact that I am always after her. After a week or two of keeping my desire to myself. I can’t even look at her with horny eyes” or make any colorfully flirty comments. Long walks in the park do nothing but make me ache for her. It’s less painful not to be around her than it is to be exposed to her lovely
I believe that all these years of repressing my desires are causing emotional and even physical damage. Sometimes I go to sleep with my testicles in pain from having such an perpetual erection and no relief. I feel like I am wasting my youthful passion and exuberance. This problem in the bed is leaking over into all the areas of my life: I’m becoming tense, short-tempered with everyone, neurotic. In another decade I probably won’t enjoy sex that much either (although, I honestly can’t imagine what that must be like). It’s not sex that I’m after as much as deep intimacy (through sexual/sensual contact).
Basically, she’s not even interested in being interested. If I bring it up she gets negatively emotional and says that I’m only with her for the sex (What sex!?) and that if I’m not happy with her I should find someone else. I know that’s not really what she wants. It doesn’t matter if we go on vacation (even worse since my sexuality perks way up when we go on vacation) or I clean the house or take care of the kid (I take care of him more often) or having a romantic dinner ready for her or offer a massage or buy her a dress.
There is not one single connection I can make between anything I do and the rare event that she becomes interested in me. This leads to me to believe that the problem begins simply with an hormonal imbalance, a subject that I haven’t seen many people talking about on this web site so far. Whether the low-libido spouse is a man or woman I think they need to begin by having a thorough hormone test to see if anything is off. It is sad to think how many relationships have disintegrated or at least been aggravated due to a simple chemical that they have too much of or not enough of. I have a friend that is one of the kindest guys you could meet that lost his marriage to early menopause, a condition that few people know about but that I suspect is culprit in destroying many women’s libidos. As for the men with low libidos...I can not comprehend your experience. The only time my libido goes down is when I get my sexual approaches trampled on. Even if I’m sick I know one thing that would cheer me up!
Anyway, I’ve gone on and on about my problems. Sorry if I’ve bored y’all. What can I do? I think about all I can do is get therapy for myself to learn low libido spouse survival techniques. Any ideas out there? I am going crazy.
Sincerely,
AchingMan in Texas
BTW, I screwed up this weekend by asking for you know what while laying in bed in the morning. At first I got a “soft NO” (translates: “no way, but I’m not horribly offended by your request, just don’t ask again for a long time.”) but we continued to discuss a few elements about the differences in a reasonably relaxed manner. I was thinking “Great! at least we’re talking about it!” It didn’t last very long before it went sour and she slammed out of the room. I got up, went to Home Depot to buy some stuff she had requested I work on. I didn’t put on a big show, jsut got up, made my list, took some measurements and left. When I got back I acted as if nothing had happened and she did too. I was definitely less affectionate than I usually am. I restrained myself from appologizing and gushing over her how much I loved her. That seems to backfire. Anyway, everything seems normal since. She even held my hand that evening at dinner (not uncommon for us).
I guess I’m glad your back from vacation, in a masochistic kind of way!
Seriously, it’s great that things are positive for your sitch right now. Keep up the momentum you gained while on vacation.
P.S. As for finding a shrink, open the yellow pages under psychologists, close your eyes and stab. Call the first number your finger lands on (unless the person's self-description doesn't apply; i.e., the first time I did this, my finger landed on a person who specialized in eating disorders. So I did it again.)
There's a good chance your insurance will cover a portion of your visits. Check into it. Make sure you read up on your insurance's disclosure policies, too.
If your insurance doesn't cover these types of visits, pretend you are buying your wife 10 red dresses and splurge on yourself. She should also know you are going to see a therapist and why. Though a lovely woman, she obviously has no clue how unhappy you are, and you aren't helping your situation any by 'covering up.'
Call your doctor tomorrow. I'm sure he's back. St. John's Wort is great, but it takes a few weeks to kick in, and may be a tad too mild for you at the moment. Have you looked at samE? Should be located somewhere near your SJW.
I am not so sure about letting my wife know that I’m seeking professional help for my frustrations. She definitely knows how frustrated I am. I have written her several carefully, honestly and lovingly (not sexy) crafted letters. She has every clue about how much I am hurting. It is just beyond her to deal with it. She simply responded that she already knew all that stuff about how I was feeling and to stop telling her, there was nothing she could do about it. She says she absolutely can not force herself to do anything sexual, that it woud be along the lines of self-rape. She won’t even help me out with a HJ anymore, I can’t even look at her when she gets out of the shower (at least not directly!--the spy hole in the newspaper trick! ) The last bastions of hope are erroding!
She feels bad that she can not give me what I need and has several times suggested, without sarcasm or anger, that I find a misstress to help me out with “those needs”. I believe her when she tells me that she wants me to be happy even if it means I get my passion somewhere else. I have no doubt, however, that if I did such a drastic move that it would be the beginning of the end for us. Whenever I have even attempted to discuss (in a completely calm and non pressuring conversation) my pain, she has been unable or unwilling to handle it. I can not even bring it up. If she really knew how much pain I am going through I believe there it is likely she would leave me, thinking that she is hurting me and the only possible solution is to set me free. I can’t understand why seeking counselling and medical help would not be an easier and obvious first step before “setting me free” to seek happiness elsewhere. This all seems so bizarre to me.
Honestly, I’m not just interested in getting the physical release (I won’t deny that I need that too!) but I have so much passion and deep love to share with her. She really doesn’t have any idea how much she is missing. I am capable of giving a lot (not just talking about multiple times during a long evening!).
Although a long time ago we discussed the issue of possible past sexual abuse in her life. She said she honestly did not go through anything like that. I am beginning to reconsider this. I’ve no doubt that she doesn’t have any memory of any abuse. She also doesn’t have ANY memories of early childhood, something I find rather suspicious since I remember things that happened to me when I was 3 or even younger. All of her behaviour/attitude about sex makes absolutely no sense unless you consider the possibility of hormonal imbalance or early sexual abuse then it makes perfect sense. I may be wrong about this but the symptoms definitely are pointing towards that. This is not just a case of “differences of experiencing desire”.
I can see how both a possible hormone deficiency and possible sexual (at least emotional) abuse together are fatal for libidos. There are definitely other issues of abandonment and poor relationship role models from early on. Her father left the family when she was 5 or 6, although she continued to have a disjointed relationship with him. Her mother is very open about her dislike for sex and never had another relationship with a man.
So what does all this add up to? I guess it makes sense that I would seem like a complete jerk when wanting her so bad and insisting that sex is good and necessary for a healthy relationship. I have always just wanted her to get through any issues that may be holding her back, I want her to enjoy romance and intimacy with me. If it was just sex I needed I could get it right and left; plenty of women would gladly take me. I don’t want to go that way. I can not force her to love me with the passion that I need. I can not force her to get help or to face her past and overcome it. She must decide that I am worth putting effort into. I have given the most nurturing and sensitive environment that I could. Obviously, it hasn’t been enough.
I think I have to get strong on my own, without her knowing about it, in order to have the fortitude to get through it. I can not drag her along this path with me. I do not want to lose her, I love her dearly but I don’t think I can survive the pain of not having a relationship with the woman I love. Ironic, no?
What is samE? SJW? Sounds like a pair of gangsta rap stars.
You situation is EXACTLY like mine. It is really sort of creepy. Except that my wife never told me to go out and get a mistress. It is a tough situation to be in for sure. You should get one thing straight though about your comment:
"I guess it makes sense that I would seem like a complete jerk when wanting her so bad and insisting that sex is good and necessary for a healthy relationship."
I feel like there may be a little sarcasm but I'm not sure. Anyway, if anyone thinks you are a complete jerk for thinking this then they are sadly mistaken. Sex IS important (every bit as important as letting her cry on your shoulder when she is freaking out about whatever) but the bigger picture is that there are only two requirements for a healthy relationship:
1. You and your spouse are helping each other meet their needs. 2. You and your spouse are helping each other meet their needs.
These two things are what make relationships so tricky....everyone is different and everyone has different needs. Obviously, your needs are not being met. Perhaps some of hers are not too, but it is up to her and ONLY her to tell you about them. If one partner is not clear about expressing that their needs are not being met, or, if one partner is not willing to do what it takes to meet their partner's unmet need, then the relationship will surely fail...it is just a matter of time....and masochism (and even though this is of little consequence when you get divorced, it won't be your fault as long as you were honest and expressed your needs openly and clearly).
People like us (people in relationships that are completely unbalanced in the "favor" of their spouse) are being abused...just as surely as if your spouse were to walk up and kick you in the junk everyday (I don't know about you but I would actually prefer this to what is happening now). Additionally, you are abusing yourself by staying in and subjecting yourself to it. If you have kids then I can understand putting up with a little grief for their sake, in which case you should take your wife's advice and go get yourself a girlfriend (probably several so you don't get too attached to any one of them). That way you can keep the peace around your house until the kids are gone. Otherwise, you will stick around for the abuse until you are damn sick of it and you will not only end up hating your wife, you will hate yourself for wasting so much time. This ain't no dress rehearsal dude! You only got one shot at it and trust me, when you are on your death-bed, I can guarantee that you will not be thankful that you allowed yourself to be abused all those years for the sake of love. Like the cheesy old song says...."Sometimes, love just ain't enough."
It's only been a year that I have been dealing with this and I have a little bit more abuse I can take before I start feeling like I am compromising myself. I'm just hanging around to see what happens next and I can almost feel the sand running out of my marriage hour-glass. It is sad, desperately sad, but there is nothing else I can do except communicate and hold out as long as I can and hope she gets it together before it is too late. I love my wife but I'm not willing to be subjected to abuse of any kind over the long haul, and there is no way in hell that I am going to be having kids, buying a house, or even getting a goldfish, until either this stuff is worked out or I am with someone who actually respects my needs and is as willing to help me meet my needs as I am willing to help her meet hers.
Thanks for the post, Meatpup, there is some consolation in knowing that others are dealing with similar frustrations. For years I thought I was one of the few young marriages going through middle age marriage blues.
I just went to the doctor for depression and got some meds that should help with general sense of contentment with the side effect (benefit in this case) of lowering my libido. While I'm sad to see it go, it does bring me a lot of frustration and keeping my testicles from telling me what to do all the time may be empowering. A lot of women probably don't realize that we tend to be sort of enslaved by our sex drive.
Thanks again for you reassurance and encouragement. Hope you make some headway with your sitch as well.
Seriously, it sounds like you've been talking with AM for some time and are much more familiar with the particulars of his sitch than I am. I'm not sure I see other options, either, and I agree that #1 doesn't help and #3 is a non-option. Trouble is, I have been trying #2 and it doesn't seem to be working significantly better. I guess I haven't found the right flavor of change. But as you set this thread up for AM, I'll retreat back to mine now. (Are you sure you didn't have that can of WA the whole time?) 
Welcome back! 
) The last bastions of hope are erroding!