Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums For Newcomers I was supposed to get divorced tomorrow...!

I just read through. I'm not at your point yet, but the divorce process, "controlling" script, A with OM, separated finances, false abuse complaints, etc. have already started.

I learned very quick to go LRT, Distance, and keep contact to a minimal and strictly about my D(1).

Based on reading, you are too worried about what she is doing and not doing. And hey... that is understandable. But from what it sounds to me, you should really just not have any conversations with your WAW unless they are strictly about your D's.

If she starts an argument, starts making complaints, she is just escalating to justify her own behavior. Just nod, say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and excuse yourself from the argument.

Do not participate in the drama, detach yourself as much as possible, and she'll be drawn back.

Seems like you are going to end up pushing her away by trying to control what she is doing - because the only thing you can control is your interactions with your D's (most important) and yourself. Let your W follow her journey, act retarded, whatever she needs to do. Let her make the case for you to take her back - you shouldn't be so willing to jump back together with someone who is so broken emotionally.

M takes two people who love themselves enough to be able to fully love each other. You can't force her on a timetable to forgive herself, or to build up her confidence enough to get to that point.

Hi SMW,

The cell phone is a good idea....I'll keep it in mind. As it turned out, D9 called me later this morning - she said they got home from dinner late (7pm), watched a movie, and by then it was 10pm, which was too late to call. I told her that was ok, but she can call me even if it is late, as I'm still up. I didn't want to give her a guilt trip, so I told her just in general to feel free to call me, and not to worry about the time. I spoke with D4 who is very excited I am taking them for the day tomorrow. BTW, I just spoke to the kids, and not to W. We ended the conversation and I didn't give them a chance to hand the phone to Mom.

W did say yesterday that it was perfectly fine if I wanted to call the kids....but she won't find me calling home, except for the RARE occasion. I think I might have called there twice in the past month, with legitimate questions..

My DB counselor told me to fasten my seatbelt, as it's a rollercoaster ride from here on out. I need to stop worrying about some things. Maybe I just need to worry less about it all (not too easy to do, but I'm getting better).

Thanks for your feedback...!

Thanks DCBHM,

I don't understand the control statement. I have control over NOTHING except myself. She has control over when I see the kids, when I drop them off, what events they are scheduled for (even on my days with them).... She does her own thing, and I don't question any of it.

You mentioned a key item though - " If she starts an argument, starts making complaints, she is just escalating to justify her own behavior. Just nod, say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and excuse yourself from the argument. Do not participate in the drama, detach yourself as much as possible, and she'll be drawn back. "


I think that bit in particular with work wonders for us. I strongly notice that when I defend myself, things just escalate, because, as she knows, I am the root of all of the world's troubles, and I am to blame. By acknowledging her feelings, but not participating, I think any friction should be minimized.

As far as conversation with the W, limiting it to the kids is good, as well as discussing her classes (she seems to light up when we discuss those subjects). Since we are now in active counseling, I will leave the "us" conversations up to our DB counselor. I tended to not discuss "us" anyway, as I have been doing my DB homework.

I started the DB stuff myself before even knowing what to call it or about this site because I went through a WAW situation before. I just started doing the opposite things of what I did then (doing the same things an expecting a different result = insanity) and found out that is called DB'ing

When I said "control" I didn't necessarily mean that you are actually being controlling, only that she sees it that way. Even if you say "I don't like you doing that" or "I'm going to do this if you do that" she will view it as controlling.

You've got to have an "I don't give a F" attitude, not by being mean, but just "aloof" and focus on yourself/kids and act like your W is just a partner.

M is a contract between two people... you have to treat it like a business. The emotional stuff will come later, but if you try to push things too fast/too soon it backfires.

My W and her A is surprising to a lot of people because everyone who knows us and has seen us together the past several years always said "you two are meant to be" and "you two will be together forever" and things like that. Our M was having problems, the A happened, and now I'm in a WAW/separated/divorce situation.

So I feel like my feet are to the fire, and I've got to DB my butt off, and do everything I can in order to see if things can be salvaged at some point.

In order to do that... I have had to detach myself from the drama, allow her to be her own person - even to the point of allowing her and OM to do whatever - and just act like I no longer am concerned.

Already today she's been text-messaging a lot more than usual. Baby steps, but eventually I'll test the waters to see if we can even have a civil discussion. Give that a few weeks, then try seeing if we can discuss the kids. Give that a few weeks, then see what happens.

I can't afford to jump at the first 'doubt' she expresses. Last time she called me and started talking C, custody, etc. I just acted like I was listening to what she wanted and didn't offer many opinions. Come to find out, she was testing the waters, and then turtled up again.

It almost seems like you have to take actions that make D *more* likely before they wake up. All the pursuing/pressure/etc. that leads to D is the tragic consequence when people don't detach well enough.

Your situation seems like one in which you want to remove yourself and not participate in those arguments. Been there... ex-W used to scream/yell and I'd just turn off my phone and ringer. Then read a book. Then she'd show up wanting to make up.

Dave,

Just read your whole story, and I'm sorry that you are in the sitch you are. I don't have advice other than continue to do what works and keep a PMA. You summed it up very well when you wrote
I think it's great that you are able to meet with a DB coach in person, and that your W is also meeting with. My W and I went to 2 MC's and in each circumstance, the MC basically said "I can't help you if both of you aren't willing to work on your M".

DCBHM,

I hope you are making some progress - it sounds like maybe you are, as painfully slow as it is.

You are right NOT to jump at the first doubt. Actually, I have been applying the "believe half of what she does, and none of what she says" advice. However, she continues to be friendly and civil to me. Since we are separated, I don't have a LOT of face to face time with her, but when I do I make sure to be aware of myself so I don't get triggered into repeating a bad behavior. Fortunately, there have been no more triggers - or I am not responding (or looking) for them. I have been just doing stuff with the kids, not involving her in much of our details or plans - just kind of doing our own stuff, and letting her find out later what we did, or where we went after the fact (and only if she asks).

She continues to be friendly and almost warm to me. Of course, no hugs or anything like that. But, cooperative, and willing to allow me some flexibility with the girls (as far as time, anyway). Also gave me the choice of having them for dinner or leaving them with her to make dinner - the choice was mine (I felt no pressure or tricks, but I wanted to take the girls for dinner anyway, so that's what we did).

Both daughters are sad when I leave - D4 especially, and asking Mommy if I could stay for dinner, or stay a "little while" but I tell D4 that I will be back in a couple of days, and that she and her sister can call me anytime. I sensed that W was not willing to let me stick around, and I wasn't about to counter her decision. I kissed the girls goodbye, hugs and all (even the dog) and when I got to the door I wished them (the girls) a good night, and from around the corner, out of the kitchen came a friendly "Goodbye!" from the wife - as though she wanted me to make sure I heard her. The tone was still friendly, as though she wanted to be sure I know that this goodbye was on a friendly note, and it was.

We have our 2nd DB Counseling session tommorrow. W asked me earlier about the time, to verify it. She sounded upbeat and as though she was actually looking forward to it - and I think she is. Then, just before I left today, she reiterated, "So, I'll meet you there tomorrow for our appointment at 4 o'clock, ok?"

I almost look forward to tomorrow's meeting. Actually I think I do look forward to it. I expect a lot less fire tomorrow than we had last week.

Thanks for your support Song,

In my first marriage, I went to a MC and within 30 minutes he was asking us to decide whether we wanted to stay together or split. As though he wanted a definite answer right then and there. I noticed a lack of a wedding band on his left hand, so I asked him if he had ever been married, and he answered "No." This experience alone kept me from any MC in this current marriage.

DBing kicks @$$ on this particular marriage counselor! The guy was a clown in my book. Absolutely no help whatsoever. None.


MY PMA gets easier and easier to maintain every day! I am seeing small signs from the W that things are softening. IT still has a ways to go, but I think I am on the right track, headed in the right direction.

Yesterday, when I had the girls, I asked D9 if things seemed to be going better for her lately - she enphatically said "Yes!!" I asked her "how so?" and she told me that the unlimited time we have together has been great, and that we can go do things now... when before I had supervised parenting at a "Shared Parenting" place. That was degrading and insulting to me - it was awful! I hated it too. So, we are both much happier now (and D4 is too!). So, I asked D9 if Mommy seemed happier lately, and she immediately replied "Yes" - but I didn't know if that was only recently, or since I had the restraining order at first back in November. So I asked D9 if W seemed happier since Christmas, or more recently, like in the past few weeks, and she immediately answered "within the last few weeks."

Amazing how we can start repairing things when we start communicating and especially when we get the darn attorneys out of the way!

Song, I REALLY hope you can find a MC who knows and understands the DB techniques. I truly feel that my DB counselor is on OUR side! (OUR = wife and me!)

Maybe a call to the DB office will find you one in your area. There's also the phone coaching too - fortunately, I have access to a live person right here in town.

Best of luck and best of DB to you!

OK, the latest update:

Today being Wednesday, I was not scheduled to have the kids at all today. However, I had a dental appointment at 4pm, and it usually lasts about an hour. The office is near an outdoor mall, where the kids and I often go to eat or play at the playground there. I had an idea and thought I'd stick my neck out a bit.

On Wednesdays that D9 has Girl Scouts, the W and two kids meet a friend and her daughter around 4:30pm for dinner (usually at Wendy's or McD's or another fast food joint located across the street from the mall) and around 5:15pm they go off to Girl Scouts.

I called the W and asked her if D9 had Girl Scouts tonight. She did, so I offered that since I would be in the area at that time, I would be willing to take D4 off of her hands while the older kids do their Girl Scout thing. She could then pick up D4 on her way back home, or I would take her home at the appropriate time. At first W was not interested, saying that she had a few errands to run first. I told her that I could meet them just before they left for the GS meeting (it seemed that she didn't understand the timing) and once she understood my plan she sounded a lot more enthusiastic. I told her that if it was too awkward or complicated her plans in any way, that we would just forget it for today (since it was an unscheduled thing).

She changed her tune, and we agreed to have me pick up D4 at 5:15 at Wendy's, just prior to their departure for Girl Scouts. The timing was perfect - and it worked out well.

After Girl Scouts, W called me to tell me she was on the way back, and I told her we'd be at the playground at the mall. She drove by about 15 minutes later, and we waved to acknowledge her; she stopped the car to let D9 out, and she drove off to find a parking space. I thought maybe she'd just pull over and pick up D4 instead, but maybe she wasn't in such a hurry to get home after all. Minutes later she came walking up to me and the kids. We talked for about 15 minutes while the kids played - just about "stuff" - I showed her a gift I bought for my mother's birthday, we talked about the kids, asked her about school... It was a nice but short visit, and she was warm and friendly to me. When it was time to go we all walked back to her car. She told me that she left a message for the (DB) counselor for an appt on Friday (she ended up cancelling yesterday due to childcare conflicts) but I was happy to hear that she took immediate steps to reschedule the counseling as soon as Friday! Interestingly, she then (out of the blue) commented that she thought the gift I picked out for my mom was "very nice". This was several (15?) minutes after I showed it to her. She could have said nothing, but she felt it important enough to leave me with a positive comment.

I must say, these friendly encounters have really boosted my confidence and self esteem. I feel that I am giving her space, yet being that friend (but not bending over TOO far). She seems very receptive to the positive energy (something that I haven't always been projecting over the past couple of years). I've had a bit of an awakening, and realize that I am able to reap what I sew, as they say.

It is still not fast enough for me, but things are going much better than they have, so I will keep doing what seems to be working. I will keep my eyes and ears open for tripwires and mines so that I don't backslide, since things have been going pretty well.

The latest...

OK, so we had counseling on Friday - it went ok I guess....a lot more positive energy that the first session. We scored the marriage at the best point (we both said 9) and the worst point (1 or less) and currently she rated it as a 3 or 3.5... I chose a 4. Anyway, she was asked what it would take to make it a 4 for her, and she couldn't come up with anything... So her homework assignment was to find something that I could be doing to make her bump up her score to a 3.5 or 4. For me, I wanted to feel as though she would be trusting of me, or less distrusting. The thing I wanted to see was a little more communication, and if I e-mail her, I would really like a reply - at least some acknowledgement.

So, we ended on a positive note.

Saturday there was an evening schol function at D9's school - a Sockhop. So, we all met at the school, and while we ate pizza together, and at times hung out together, it wasn't much of an event, either a plus or a minus on the scale. Nothing specifically good happened, nor anything bad.

Today, Sunday, is a regular day for me to take the girls. We visited my parents for the day, spent a lot of time outside playing, and had a pretty nice day. I brought the girls back home around 7:30, which was ok with the W. Before I left for the evening I went intot he kitchen to get a glass of water, and saw on the calendar an appointment with her attorney at 3pm Wednesday. I asked W about that, and she said, "Oh, she just wants to meet with me to see how things are going." I expressed concern at this, as this atty is a real shark bent on destroying me (I have other names for her, and other folks who are in the business all have a VERY poor opinion of her) - I cannot help but think that only something bad will come of this. W told me that her atty called her, and asked to see her. I thought it odd (and suspicious) that the atty would call her, invited her to her office for a PAID appointment, with the claim that she "just wants to talk to see how things are going, how counseling is going, etc..." WHAT?!? I am VERY concerned, as we only started making progress when we got the attorneys out of the picture.

We last saw the attorneys in the final court hearing at the end of January.

Why would she agree to meet the atty out of the blue like this? Are they good friends who are going to "girl chat" over coffee? I seriously doubt that. If she just wanted to see how things were going, why not do it over the phone??? I am SO AFRAID that I will have a new e-mail from my attorney with yet some other paperwork being served upon me come Thursday morning. W told me not to worry about it, but I am so afraid that she will be talked into some crap that will be another wrap in the noose around my neck.

It sounds like the W herself is not sure why she is being asked to show up to her office. She said her atty said "just to see how things are going..."

Should I be worried about this? I can't NOT be worried about this. Has anyone else seen this happen? I'm getting that sick feeling that just as things are starting to move in the right direction for us, that someone is going to come along and see to it that all of my efforts will be derailed.

Any advice from anyone? I will see the W a couple of times tomorrow, before she goes off to school, and at the end of the day for a bit. I'll probably not mention it at all (it'll be killing me...). Best to put on my best game face - try to act "as if" it is nothing. Better to not give the W any reason to say anything bad about me to her nasty atty.

Anyone else have advice?

OK, so it's Friday night, and no further info about the attorney visit. I'll take that as good news. I thought that perhaps W was going there to evaluate her options, as in "What are my options if he moves back in and THEN things don't work out?" I don't really know, and I have no control over that, so I just will not worry about it. I have better things to do. The W told me not to worry about it several days ago, so I don't think she meant any ill will.

Things have been going ok. I still haven't had any alone time with the W, just time with the kids present, such as before W goes to school (and drops off D9 at bus stop) or when she comes home from school on Fridays while I am still there with D4, or on Sundays / Mondays when I have the girls all day - but I am there only at the beginning or end of the day. But, I have been trying to take advantage of these times. Most of the time there's little interaction - perhaps some light conversation, no more. Sometimes, we actually get a few minutes alone, like in the kitchen. The other day I told her that I'd like to have some one on one time, just to talk - not about anything in particular (certainly not about the R), just about things I have been doing, things at work, or with the family...just talk about stuff. She seemed agreeable to this (!) - I thinik she said, "Yes, I'd like that..." This morning I mentioned it again, using the guise that the DB counselor wanted us to practice our communication skills, but we haven't had the chance with the kids always being around. I asked her if it would be ok if we went on a "little date", say to get a coffee or something. She again agreed, saying "Yeah, that'd be nice..." so I left it at that. We were supposed to have DB counseling today, and was planning to bring it up then.

Well, as fate would have it, she called me an hour before the counseling and told me she had to cancel, since D4 was sounding sick. I felt rather let down, but I understand the situation, and she said she asked the counselor to reschedule the appointment. I'm glad she's so willing to attend counseling and is willing to make the time to go to the sessions. I truly believe that she likes going.

I asked her yesterday (or was it today?) if she thought the counseling "was ok" and she replied positively about it. I'm not making a big deal to her about it, and I think I can see some signs that she wants this to work. It's slow going, for me at least, but she's not in a hurry, and as long as it continues to go well for us, day after day, I think she will be more and more convinced that the changes she sees in me are sincere.

I spoke with her on the phone tonight, and mentioned that since we missed our DB appt today, that maybe we could so something on our own that would be constructive. I mentioned that perhaps if I picked up the girls a couple of hours early on Sunday, that might give her a chance to get an earlier start on her Sunday routine. Then perhaps later I could drop off the girls with Grandma for a couple of hours, and she and I could meet for a coffee or lunch or ??? to just talk, spend some time together... She told me she had 2 tests on Monday, and that perhaps another Sunday would work. I reminded her that I could get the girls a bit early to give her a head start on her day, and she said she'd think about it. She assured me that she was only worried about studying for her tests on Monday. I told her I didn't want too many Sundays to go by without some time for us to work on our stuff, and she agreed...but I assured her that if this Sunday didn't work out that it was OK, and that I understand she needs time to study. She said she'd let me know, and I cheerfully accepted that, and reminded her that it was OK if this Sunday was too busy...and that we could always do another day during the week if things worked out. She was good with that too.

So, I baited the hook, and I'll just wait to see what she does with it. She did seem interested... I am excited about that.

I finished reading DR this week. Time to start it again. I need to review the "homework questions" in the book and update and refine my answers... That book has some sound advice, and although I am new at DBing, I have been applying what I have learned, and it seems to be paying off.

As of right now, the next encounter will be when I pick up the girls for the day on Sunday. I'll try to think of something to get her attention on Sunday...