Thanks. But with all due respect, I think I've been exploring for about 6 years now, at the very least. Maybe you're right, and there's still yet one more unexpplored path that I can take with her. I have to decide if I'm willing to take it with her. I am so deeply resentful at her, that I have trouble enjoying the pleasure of her in my arms. The feeling's kinda gone, know what I mean?
I thought that, after thousands of dollars in therapy together, she had realized how important this is to me. It's not like I'm asking for a regular diet of bouillabaisse; I'm asking for something that just should come.....well, naturally. I know that's not reality, I just am afraid that if I communicate clearly yet again what I want/need, I'll get another dose of lip-service followed possibly by token lovemaking, then back to her regular pattern. You gotta realize, this is a very old subject for us. Sorry to sound so negative here, but she's giving me little to hope for.
Regardless, thanks to all for the advice thus far. Her birthday's coming up this Friday, so I don't plan on dropping any bombs until after that.
I’m sure glad to see that the two of you have all of my problems figured out. Cathy, you’re right that if my wife would put 1/4 of the energy that I have into fixing our problems, those problems would be solved. Unfortunately you failed to tell me how I can get her to do that.
Cloudnine, I don’t blame you for your resentful attitude – it’s very much like mine was only 2 or 3 months ago. You’re absolutely right that if you’re willing to work on the problems that your wife has with you, she should be willing to reciprocate. However life is not fair, especially when sex is involved. Eventually you’ll realize that being right will not fix your problems. You stated that you’ve been dealing with this issue for more than 6 years, and in that time it appears that you’ve made little progress. Maybe it’s time for you to wake up and realize that you don’t have all of the answers. It seems to me that you’re wasting your time on this bulletin board if you won’t accept the insight offered by those who are most capable of helping you understand your wife’s side of the issue.
Do you think that it initially made sense to me to stop initiating sex with my wife? Common sense, if you can call it that, told me that if sex wasn’t happening I should simply try harder. And I’m fairly certain that if I weren’t so concerned about the big picture I could have had sex with my wife a lot more often than I have over the past couple of years. But it likely would have been “token lovemaking” as you called it. My ultimate goal is not simply regular sex, but rather for my wife to want and need me that way that I do her. And for that to happen, I now believe that some subtle reverse psychology is my best course of action.
By giving your wife an ultimatum, if that’s what you decide to do, I think that you stand a fairly good chance of at least getting token lovemaking from your wife, and possibly much more. Based on what I’ve read on this bulletin board, the threat of loss seems to be the most effective way to elicit change in your spouse. But it’s also very possible that in giving an ultimatum you could end up like Cathy. Only you can decide if that risk is worth taking. Personally, I love my wife and my girls way too much to go through life without them, and I honestly believe that taking the approach that I have will eventually pay off.
Where did I state that I had your problems figured out? I just found it sad that YOU felt guilty for having the nerve to touch your wife. As for how you can get your wife to "1/4 of the energy", no one here can give you that advice. It has to come from your W, and only her. That's kind of my point.....I am done expecting my W to change. She said she would, and she hasn't, so she must be comfortable right where she is. I don't envision laying down an ultimatum, just telling her the way I see it, that life's too short for me to maintain this frustrating existence.
And you can get off your high-horse about having a "big picture" attitude, where as all I want is mere "sex". I want a wife.....a WIFE.....who responds to me, makes me feel valued, appreciated, and attractive; a woman who is willing to look deep into herself and discover something, and in turn elevate her marriage to a level never before experienced. I want to feel important to her, a priority in this respect.
I believe that my wife loves me, and I love her, as well as our two daughters. Is that enough though? That's where I'm stuck, folks. I tried the acceptance route for awhile, but when I was honest with myself, I still had a festering resentment toward her. If I seem like an antagonist here on this BB, it's because I'm engaging in a Socratic dialogue where every answer generates a new question for me.
What I want to know is: why keep at it, when everything you've thought of has been tried and failed? And don't tell me it's because you love the spouse. That seems like a cop-out to me. My wife loves me, but she's actively denying the very thing she knows I want from her. I love her, and can still say "I have to move on". So, there must be something else that keeps you at it. I'm not afraid of leaving, which maybe makes me more willing to take this approach to my situation. However, I'm not gone yet.
What I would like to know is, when did communicating your feelings to your spouse become the same as a "threat" or an ultimatum?" You have a man here who is so unhappy in his marriage that he will consider leaving it. Surely, sooner and MPT, you aren't saying that he shouldn't share those feelings with his wife are you?
You guys didn't write the book on what is write and what is wrong in a situation like this. sooner, do you think you love your wife and family anymore than cloudnine does or I did mine? Your reply to what was said smacks of superiority and to be honest with you from what I have readof your story you seem to fear your wife. It takes courage to step outside our fear and find solutions to problems. Solutions that don't include threats and ultimatums. Just because someone else has gotten to the point of no longer being able to handle his situation gives you no right to pass judgment and act as if you are more evolved emotionally or have a better view of the "bigger picture."
Let me tell you about the "big picture." Unless you have low levels of all those chemicals that allows us to have a sex drive you will be denying your body and normal function. One that is meant to keep you healthy both physically and emotionally. You will accept the status quo, live your normal daily life, raise your girls, send them off on their own and then you will be a middle aged man with a wife who is nothing more than a room mate. Some people are able to see beyond the way they feel right now at this moment and realize that keeping themselves in their present situation will only mean heartache way down the road. You don't have a monopoly on loving your wife or daughters, or any proven expertise on how to solve a problem like this. Try to remember that in the future. Cathy~
Cloudnine, I think everyone here has offered you heartfelt advice, and I think everyone here understands first-hand your deep hurt, resentment and fustration...at least on a personal level.
I think where the advice is coming from is the fact that some people here (MPT and Sooner) have found courses of action to try, something they can do to try and improve their marriages. These courses of action may not work for you...but for the moment, they are feeling and acting upon what they have not felt in a good number of years....honest to goodness, genuine HOPE.
And that's really all any of us can do. But at least now they have something to hold on to where before they were immersed in despair. I believe that if you found your true nugget of hope, your one plan of action that to you made good sense and seemed like it had a better than average chance of working, you'd work your ass off on it to save your marriage. I mean, you want your marriage to work.
I don't think it's sad that Sooner felt 'bad' about having the nerve to 'touch' his wife. I don't think that is what he was feeling bad about. I think he felt bad for 'tripping' the sex argument yet again. And if within the confines of his marriage he can find the key for lasting improvement, I think he would very willing go without sex for a period of time if it indeed is the thing needed to bring about permanent change.
It may be, it may not be. But he was honest enough to say that the route he is on is one that he had not tried yet...at least not heart-felt or long enough to bring about any kind of result. But God, at least now he has HOPE. He's feeling better about himself, his general outlook has improved...and I think his wife is changing...but as MPT says, because she is not 'trying' (or not in the way most of us here feel she should be), and because she isn't the one who feels like she has the 'problem,' the changes Sooner is making to himself will take a bit longer to take effect on her because she's not dealing with the same reality.
But that's Sooner. Not you.
That's really all you are looking for, yes? Hope? To me it sounds like you are missing that critical action plan. It sounds to me like you feel you have tried everything under the sun and then some, and you are left standing there with the one option you don't really want to follow, but feel is the only course of action left to you. Divorce.
I believe Cathy said to you that you should seriously consider communicating with your wife the feelings you have posted here. I'm sure everyone concurs. The only caveat I would offer is hauling your wife back into therapy with you to do it. Your resentment and anger is palpable, understandably so, and I think in order for your wife to hear your message, not your anger, you should do it in therapy. I'm not suggesting you plunk down another couple grand in therapy costs...maybe just a few more sessions so you can be certain your wife has heard your message....you are at the end of your rope and are within a few months of leaving for good.
I don't believe you communicating this to her is necessarily an ultimatium on your part. I think you are feeling desperate, and as the final effort you can make before departing, you can go to therapy with her one last time to communicate this to her in the most CLEAR, loving, honest way possible. You may run the risk of blowing up on her, or being overly caustic and critical if you do it by yourselves because of your (understandable) anger and fustration...and then she more than likely won't truly hear you.
Perhaps another option you can try before taking the radical road to divorce is a seperation. If you go to therapy with your wife and are able to communicate to her your level of despair so she truly understands it, and then leave for a time to make certain this is something YOU truly want, it allows you to step to the edge of the abyss and take a peek over before actually jumping...and underscores to your wife just how miserable you are. If she didn't get the message before, I don't know how she could miss it. But to be fair to saving your marriage, stay in therapy if you explore this course.
The seperation route can backfire on the both of you. One or both of you may decide to chuck it all together, and then this option didn't really serve it's purpose. However, if you are half-way out the door already....???? It's a definate risk. Only you can decide if it's one worth taking.
Can I ask you some questions? I'm curious to know how old your children are? Does your wife work outside the home? Have either of you been previously married? Do you work long hours, typically? Is there a measured age difference between you (more than say, seven years)? Would your shrink say the two of you have trust issues? What are your wife's parents like? What were yours like?
Anyway, I hope you continue to hang here with us. You never know, together we may all bumble upon the nugget of hope you are seeking.
Thanks for the backup, Cathy. And Corri, thank you for your points. They are well taken. If anyone cares, please circle back to my original post at the beginning of this thread. I mention the story (pp. 117 - 118 of SSM) of the woman who found the ideal sex life after "chucking it". I'm looking at her with envy of late, and wondering if the story doesn't somehow contradict the general attitude of the author to "hang in there, regardless".
I'm at the point where I'm willing to leave, at least as a separation. She may in fact realize that I'm really serious, even though we've separated twice before, albeit for short periods of time. I look past when my daighters are gone from the home, and I don't see myself with my wife. Cathy touched on this feeling in me. If we don't have that strong physical connection with each other, what do we have, when the kids are gone? I think this is why couples break up after kids are grown. Do I want to wait that long? It's a gamble if I leave, or if I stay. If I leave, she may in a few years flower into the sexual woman I always felt existed inside, but another man will enjoy that. Conversely, I could leave, find a great relationship (like the woman in that story) and be glad I made the move while there was still time.
To answer some of your questions, Corri: my daughters are 3.5 and 15. The older daughter is from my previous marriage, but is with us much of the time. Ours is my wife's first marriage, and my second. Not only does she work, but we work at the same conglomerate in L.A., and even report to the same boss. Can we say...close to home?! Although we have demanding jobs, we work fairly normal hours. My wife is 35, and I'm 42. She has trust issues with me that go back over 4 years. They are justified issues, but we have worked hard to resolve them, and she has said she's ready to move forward and not dwell on the past any more. This was after I slept in the guest bedroom for almost a year, and told her that I would not sleep with her until she was ready to move forward with me. She finally said she was, and that was back in March. My wife thinks her dad is a sexist pig (he is), and her mom thinks sex is unnecessary. Her folks are divorced, in case you didn't figure that out. My folks are also divorced, and there's not much to say there, except that there were no healthy sexual role models there for me. I've had to navigate it on my own.
I firmly believe that this situation is much more basic that it is made out to be. She's not going to change, and I'm not going to become less horny, unless I take the suggestion of that other guy and start swilling Benadryl every day. We're at an impasse, and I have to either accept my lot in the marriage and that it will be sexless, or move on, with the consequences that entails. I love my wife, and will always love my wife. But I may have to let this go. Still holding out for some hope, or a miracle.
Quote: She's not going to change, and I'm not going to become less horny, unless I take the suggestion of that other guy and start swilling Benadryl every day.
Hey, I'm going to have to politely ask you to stop taking pot shots at others. You may not view the above as such, you may not even have meant it as one, but I and a number of others do...and quite frankly, it hurts. So please stop.
I've reread your first post, and I've read with interest your last post. This is your second marriage, you've been married four years, not only do you spend all night with your wife, you spend all day with her at work, you've spent one of those years seperated from your wife (at least in the bedroom), you have a teenager and a baby in the house, your wife has some trust issues with you, and you're wondering why things aren't necessarily blissful? It has taken at least two years to create the situation you are in (if not more...I can't tell from your posts), yet you are ready to leave because your wife -- who has indicated she is ready to work on your problems -- has not made the kind of progress you had hoped she would...in two months.
Is this accurately condensed?
I could tell you what I think, but I'm wondering if you want to hear it? I'm not a shrink, don't claim to be, but I'm not real eager for my 'proverbial' head to get ripped off when I start listing out some things I'm pretty sure you're not going to want to hear.
So, let me ask you...what do you want to get from participating in this BB? You are a perplexing person to me because by being here, it seems to me there is a side of you that is very sensitive and really wants his marriage to work. But on the other hand, you lash out at people and completely lacerate them in two seconds flat, yet you wonder why you are having intimacy problems.
I personally want to talk to the side of you that wants to work this out.
Man, if you want out of your marriage, get out. You don't need anybody's blessing.
But if you want to work on your marriage and save it, bury the bully and let's get down to work. You don't seem to be the type who's afraid of using a little muscle...let's see if you can use it to bring people closer rather than shoving them away.
I didn't see it as a potshot, but your point is noted.
You did not accurately condense the situation. Let me clarify:
Been married 7 years, been together 10. Don't know how I've "created" the situation I'm in. I'm not looking for bliss, and never said that I was; I'm looking for a partner who wants a physical relationship as part of our marital relationship. (Hardly a request for bliss.) My W has not only indicated that she is willing to work on the problems, she has not followed thru on a single thing she said she would do to change. Read a book, seek therapy, converse with girlfriends....whatever...she has not done anything constructive to get to where she says she wants to be. Not where I want to be, where SHE wants to be. This has been going on for more than two months. We just concluded our therapy two months ago, but have been discussing this for ages. The therapy sessions just legitimized the discussion.
As for what i want from this BB, I was expecting to find a community that was willing to get out of the soap opera of their lives, and take action. What I take "potshots" at is the seeming willingness of people to accept abberant behavior as normative. I find my wife's behavior as not very normative, and will reject any advice to the contrary. If anyone thinks, for instance, that I am thrashing Sooner about his situation, I am actually on his side! I feel for the guy. It's his wife who I think is a selfish, self-centered spouse. She doesn't deserve flowers from him, but a gift certificate to the therapist of her choice. (But, of course, she probably thinks nothing is wrong with her.) But, it's his marriage, and his situation. Listen, there are septuagenarians with more satisfying sex lives than I have. Hell, there are HOMELESS people with better sex lives than i have! I'm tired of being patient, and nice, and sensitive. I've taken action on her issues with me, and am right to expect the same from her.
That said, what's your advice? I'm all ears. I've been asking for advice all thru this thread. I don't want a thumb's-up for a divorce, and haven't asked for one. I'd like to see what you have to suggest for me. But, like I stated earlier in the thread, if it's "come down to the LD's level", I probably won't be too receptive.
I saw I was inaccurate with my condensed version after I posted...I didn't check your facts. My apologies. As a side note, I'm glad you're in Sooner's corner, but let's leave him out of it.
Welp, if you want my opinion, here it is. I don't think you need to change yourself to an LD. That would be like asking a leopard to change his spots. Ain't gonna happen. Conversely, asking your wife to change to an HD is equally unfair. LDs and HDs are two different breeds. The challenge is to find how we can live peacefully and successfully together.
I personally think you need to make a decision on whether you are committed to making your marriage work, or if you want out. It seems to me you are sitting on the fence right now, which is perfectly understandable. But until you decide which course you are going to follow, I don't see you getting anywhere quick.
I personally think that a successful marriage is created by two people, just as a bad one is created by two people. Both contribute to it, consciously or not. Can you agree on that?
I don't think YOU have created the situation you are in, but I do think you've contributed, just as your wife has. Equal work, equal blame.
Sounds to me like you do want to take action, and that is great. The problem here is that none of us really knows what the exact secret formula is. It's all trial and error. I think living in a society of immediate gratification tends to hurt us Americans sometimes.
I think it's really interesting that you think so many other people have a better sex life than you do. I'd say 80% of the population is in the same boat as you are, but most aren't will to admit to it. And even if others do have a better sex life than you do, so what? Doesn't really apply to you. Let go of it. Leave it out. It isn't comparable statistics because no one has the exact situation you do.
How was the sex life in your first marriage?
Just as you are fustrated with your marriage, I'm sure your wife is, too. Have you asked yourself why she may not be trying as you think she ought? Does she think she is trying? Your interpretation of it and her interpretation of it might be very different. Are you willing to allow her the freedom of her own opinions, choices, and actions without judgement?
The goal is to not only have more sex, but equally satisfying sex, yes? What if she feels that if she doesn't produce the sex you want, she will suffer? If you were in her shoes, how would that make you feel? Do you care? I can hear you saying right now that you are suffering because you aren't getting sex. You are correct. You are.
Problem here is you are both suffering. You are BOTH right. Now what?
So my question to you is, do you want to be right, or do you want to solve the problem?
