Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy My worst fears confirmed! Wife having EA/PA...

Puppy has a strong point of view and says it worked for him. I'm happy for them. But it is not exactly the DB approach and I think he'd agree with that. So, get opinions from many, and take from them, what works for you.

(( j ))

There has to be some middle ground between "will this draw her closer or push her away" and "you cheated on me and wounded my ego/you're an evil bitch/I have rights too".

It's called personal boundaries, or if you prefer, integrity.

I believe one should act according to one's ethical lights and not merely based on the expediency of desired outcome (which is a cheeseless tunnel anyhow, since us poor non-psychic saps aren't going to even guess right on how a spouse will react a lot of the time).

The tricky part is sorting out which actions spring from personal integrity versus which actions are emotional reactivity/vengeful lashing out.

The 48 hour rule is a good one.

Correct; DB is not pro-exposure, pro-no-contact letters/transparency agreements. MWD is, however, big on personal boundaries.

The rest of my approach is pretty standard DB stuff -- 180s, GAL, "shine a path back toward the marriage," etc. I'm just not a big believe in what I call "The Little Bo-Peep Approach" -- you know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them." I think there are more proactive things that can be done to bust up affairs ("separate the addict from the source of their addiction"), that are best for both WASs and LBSs.

But I absolutely agree you have to do what works best for you. In fact, I usually only interject on someone's thread when THEY express dissatisfaction with their current approach. If it's sapping their self-esteem, hurting them emotionally, hurting their family financially, hurting their kids, etc. For those I see "standing" and holding up well, I usually just tip my cap and keep on walking -- I admire their strength.

Most people can't do it very long.

Puppy

Pup/All,

Had my coaching session w/Joann, caught her up on everything that has happened.

We agreed that due to the fact that we are dislocating from our home and THAT opens up opportunity for W to pursue separation that what I am doing now is a good course (NOt being available to her, not "acting" like a husband, giving her the feel for what a separation will be like, giving her oodles of space, ect, ect.).

She seems hellbent on doing it, so she needs to process all of her EA stuff now. I have busted the EA, I can keep tabs on whether or not it is continuing. For now, I can do my own thing and see if she can come back to the real world.

If she can't keep her committments than she isn't the person I want to be with anyway. Please know there is plenty of Grace and Love behind that statement, but I'd rather move on with a chance for a reconcile later. I'm not the type to hang out while it's going on.

So the track until firther notice is to mointor, detach, give space, and watch. Adjusting what I do based on how she responds. She should be in with our C right now as an IC. No doubt talking about all of her pain and feelings. No doubt pointing the finger at me for driving her to it becasue of all of my DA manuevers (which are true to a point).

Hopefully, as he has with me, hold her accountable for what is was, That it's not real, and she will begin the processing phase where she can realize how hurtful these things are.

Tonight ought to interesting. Well she's on her own on that. I will be elsewhere giving her space.

Jeff

Sounds like a good plan, Jeff. Let us know how we can help.

Puppy

Pup,

Just be here to bounce things off of..I am about to enter the hard part of all this as I detach from the woman I love.

I installed the Eblaster software on the laptop.. Very cool. I have work to do on the Mac. If we separate I will need to configure it for remote access. So once thats done I will be covered.

So I will sit back and work the plan. Were the weekends the hardest times for all of you all? That's when I seem to struggle the most.

Working out again. That helps with the sleep factor.

Funny thing is that she is using the laptop now...I think she realizes every time she did her thing on the mac she got caught. So the next couple of days will be insightful. She was ok tonight but withdrawn. Puppy the remote option is much better than having to login directly on the computer ...Liking the Eblaster..

Anyway..Thanks for being there!

Jeff

Jeff, (and PT)

I think we ALL believe the LBSer has to set and enforce some type of healthy boundary, especially in these situations. Every person does, even the WAS, should they return. No matter what other "approach" is taken, you have to be healthy and maintain some dignity, strength, and self respect (self respect is often both haunted & balanced by its' alter ego, pridefulness).

However, with all due respect for your experience PT, I think you do a disservice to the DB approach by adamantly opposing it here, which I think is misplaced, and wording it the patronizing way you do. "Cheaters always lie," and statements like that, project a "one size fits all" rigidity, & that bothers me. Of course You are entitled to your opinion and expressing it. But your tone/wording can seem smug, fyi.

In any event, someone here referred to "integrity" and Jeff, I think that's what we all mean. No matter where you fall on the spectrum, of full on snoop Patrol, to the way PT suggests DB supports, at the end of the day, we each have to look within and ask ourselves if we are alright with our choices.

For instance, whether to ML with our WASs when they come in for a landing at the home base, (or are they trying to reconcile???), or whether to slam the door in their face, DEPENDS. How do you know which choice is "right"? (IMO There really are situations that could call for either one of those responses).

We pray. And we look in our hearts and souls and we ask OURSELVES, "am I doing this out of love? Am I doing this out of need? Am I coming from a place in my heart where God dwells, or am I using Him as an excuse to punish, under the guise of 'teaching WAS a lesson' or 'setting limits'---(another way of 'teaching a lesson)' and that is not coming from a place of love...it's manipulating and punitive and judgemental and the LBSer with control/critical mindsets uses the A as their justification for ramping up their controlling behaviors.

I asked both my DB coach and my pro-M therapist (pro-M t's can be hard to find, let's face it) about this. And they both said that these questions for the struggling believer are THE questions. It's hard enough to understand our own decisions (let alone mind reading the WAS) and where they are based within us, but when is it our hurting ego that claims the "right" to make demands, or the loving spouse determined to move forward with a contrite & willing partner. I agree. It's tough. That is your struggle. But you struck a chord in my memory when you discussed "controlling" factors. That is a word thrown around a lot, mocked, misused, etc.

RE; CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR OR LBSers.....Yes, WAS's hurl that label out & it gets attached to their LBSers to justify their A's. That is wrong, and it's sad and pathetic to use the allegation as an excuse for some very bad choices. But when we dismiss all those statements as lies, we obscure something else and lose an opportunity we desparately need to see.

We obscure the fact that there are spouses who are way too controlling and obsessive and judgemental. They contribute mightily to the A, but when the A happens, the flaws in the LBSer get shoved aside b/c the focus becomes exclusively about the A, whether it continues, what exactly happened, EA vs PA, etc etc (yet another way of controlling and judging the WAS and keeping the cycle going).

Sorry to say this, but when surveyed 5 years post divorce, there are WAS who report that they are glad they divorced. (Not a big majority, but a lot). Of those who are happier without their ex's, (and excluding domestic violence) there are two reasons cited the most: 1) they felt critisized/judged, and or 2) controlled/bossed around, so if a WAS has an A and says that they felt critisized or bossed around, it does not justify the A. But if the LBSer ignores the comments, too enmeshed in their righteous indignation and anger, they'll miss a real opportunity for growth, with or without a reconciliation.

For the record, I have not had an A and as far as I know, neither has my h. I don't have a chip on my shoulder or an agenda. In almost 28 years of M, while surrounded by men working in a 'man's field' with a h who chose to put his career and MLC ahead of his family for decades, an A did cross my mind. I understand how people rationalize, definitely. But I thought it out, foresaw the likely outcomes and decided it was sooo not worth it. I could not break my h's heart or see my kids see me, the way they would. I couldn't reconcile my self image of being a moral person, with even thinking about an A. But I admit I did ponder it.

And lest you judge too harshly let me say that it had value in the sense that the "equation" one does to figure out why you should not have an A, gets easier & faster with time, so it just doesn't come up much after some time. It's like I've mentally "been there, done that." No need to go down that cheeseless tunnel.

Two of my sister's h's had A's (both h's filed for divorces) and I saw how much pain it caused. Never wish that on anyone. FWIW Neither sister was critical or controlling. (ON the contrary). Hate to say, but One bil seems happier, he married the ow 13 years ago and is still m and they have a kid. The other bil, is not a happy man. When he was m to my sister, He was critical, controlling and selfish. My older sister was an angel to him. He fiinally remarried ow #3, someone he describes as "high maintenance", and apologized to my sister for "f------ up" and that he now "gets it", etc.

My sister remarried too. Although she'd never want to have her kids go thru the crap she and they went thru with the div, she does say her exh did her a favor. Now that she's "in a M where it is the actual priority, she says she'd never go back to what she and exh had", Karma I guess.

Jeff, All I'm trying to say is that I think you're using the remote to snoop, I guess. Here's my "female" reaction to that: revulsion. Sorry if that offends. Even if you find an A, maybe one that she's still struggling with, how does that make you "right"? Or, "righter"?

If you KNOW any continued contact with OM, will force you to file for a divorce without question, I can see that such a discovery will speed that up. That's the only "value" I can find in this conduct.

For the life of me, I don't understand spending the enormous & painful energy on that, instead of examining your heart and soul for things you can do something about. If she said you are the jealous obsessive type, or controlling, then you are proving she is right. Are you validating her comments. Giving her ammo? God I hope not. Well, enough said. Good luck,
j-

25,

All fair observations.. So I have some questions for you, but before that let me clarify.

First of all I have never been controlling of her in any way in our 14 years. She went out without me with friends from time to time to dance clubs (for special occasions, ect, ect) and never worried about it. Because I had no reason to distrust her so I didn't. We always operated on trust...

I will say that it was my EA and subsequent inability to reconnect with her and her lack of tools to deal with the sitch that finally shut her down. After she agreed to stay, I did everything wrong. Begged, pleaded, talked the R to death when she needed space. Would have made a huge diff if I was here when that stage was going on.

As far as the snooping. I struggle with this a lot. I have this obessive need to know if it's shut down. Which I believe it is. Oddly enough the OM is an advocate of us piecing it back together. Even txtd me today to get the movie "Fireproof" and watch it. Strange I know. Pup would say he doesn't trust the OM. Not saying I do but it is different than the usual around here.

I guess I am using the snooping as a way to be able to return trust to her words and help me in my DBing.

I must be clear that I love her with everything that I am. I WANT to restore the marriage. I WANT to trust her and want her to trust me. I WANT to make this the relationship we dreamed of.

I have a lot of change to make in myself. I have been judgemental of myself and others, my walk with the Lord has been at my convienence not according to his will or purpose, I have listened to her but never really heard her, connected with her, I never appreciated her for who she was/is. It was generally always about me.

That marriage is dead. I know if she can get to the place of being able to think about it we can have a wonderful new marriage and go forward with the tools to manage change and the ups and downs.

Joann did feel that making MC a condition of the separation wasn't great as it wasn't her choice and she might just go through the motions. I can see the logic in that.

Last question to you all.. Is snooping/surviellence a lack of trust in God? Should I just lay it at his feet and get out of his way?

As always your thoughts and taking the time to post means the world.

Jeff

You got it, Jeff. Rest assured, it is usually the people who's ballz I busted the hardest that I check back with the most. I won't leave you hanging.



Did you get the new version 9.0? Tons of great new enhancements in there, including being to REMOTELY change any of your settings!



AB-SO-FRIGGING-LUTELY. Without a doubt. My wife and I have since had some good laughs over this, but we used to each drive around the curve in our street and CRINGE in our guts when we would see the other one's car in the driveway! Our weekdays schedules were full and hectic enough that we learned some great routines to avoid each other almost completely, and still take good care of the kids. But the weekends were MUCH more difficult, and I used to get very depressed on Friday afternoons right when all my co-workers were looking FORWARD to their weekends (as I used to!).



I was working out about 5 days a week during my sitch -- GREAT for the bod, and for avoiding my wife! And yes, definitely helped me sleep better as well!



I suspect you won't have to wait very long -- at all. Sure you can handle it? My doc gave me two different types of ADs -- one for long-term, "even me out" kinda thing, but the other because I had had two anxiety attacks. One was when I got my first keylogger e-mail that turned up my wife Googling "sexual positions" and "older women younger men". The second one was when I saw them hook up in a parking lot, get into one car, and drive to his house. UGH. Anyway, those "BREAK GLASS WHEN NEEDED!" type meds can be a big help when you think you might face some really damaging intel.

Puppy

Pup,

Luckily the OM thing is not at the level you had to deal with. I can only imagine the horror of that situation. I can see why you are so pro-surviellence. That must have been very difficult to cope with.

I definately feel like I am in "limbo" right now. This is where I struggle as I am very impatient. A-type. I am considering this part of my growth.

I think she is more focused on having her pad. Right now I think she is coming off the A and turning her attention to other things. Time will tell. DBing is well under way. I pray months from now I will be able to look back at this time and appreciate it. Cause right now this sucks!

Jeff