Sage, you can hijack my threads anytime. One of the most important things I get from this bb is what I learn from others, their situations, their experiences & perspectives.
I know you can relate, and I really empathize with your discomfort around ffs at law school. Where does our reluctance come from that we can't bring up the issue and talk about the discomfort with our spouses.
What would happen if you were to say to your H: "I want to trust you in your friendships with women. I don't want to have to spend any time worrying about it. It would like to know what your boundaries are in your friendships with women."
Doesn't it make sense to have a gameplan together on how to deal with issues like that? Does he have any expectations of boundaries with you concerning your friendships with men?
Yesterday, my counselor told me that, given how much preassure there is on marraiges in our time, and what seems like rampant EA/PA situations that start at work with co- worker/friends, that it is reasonable to talk in detail about boundaries/bottom lines/expectations with our spouses.
I know what my bottom lines are on this subject, but have you thought about where those lines are for yourself?
I know I have no control over what my H does or doesn't do, but I strongly believe I have the right to expect fidelity, and I need to be very specific about where the lines are drawn.
For example:
It's ok with me that he have ffs, but I want to know about them and the ongoing nature of the R.
It's ok to go out (for example) with a group of coworkers but not ok to be meeting women coworkers alone in bars, restarauts, etc.
It is not ok to have secret email buddies or cell phone buddies that are women.
It is not ok to talk to other women about me or about our R.
If the friendship begins to include a level of emotional intimacy that I would not be comfortable with if I knew about it, I want to know that he will see the red danger lights flashing, and hopefully even tell me about it.
According to my counselor, I don't have the right to have expectations that my partner will never make mistakes, but I have the right to hold that some kinds of mistakes will cause me to end the relationship. If my H thinks that having some bottom-line expectations is being "controlling"--so be it.
He has just as much right to have bottom line expectations of me regarding fidelity. Could be that to him, my having an EA wouldn't be that big of a deal, or maybe kissing another man wouldn't qualify as infidelity to him, only having sexual relations would. Me being unfaithful to my H would basically mean that I violated a commitment to him to by doing something that HE defines as being unfaithful.
Case in point....maybe Bill Clinton was able to compartmentalize recieving oral sex as not being unfaithful to his wife, but what really counts is whether or not his wife considered that as being unfaithful, right?
Now if my H had the idea that I should never speak to any man between the ages of 17 and 70...that I might consider that controlling.
I don't want to be in a R if I don't feel that I am afforded the right to expect fidelity, as I define it. I hope to have the kind of relationship where Wolfie and I can discuss such things like adults and as a team that is trying to consciously prevent destruction of our relationship.
Hi Tal, This is a tough one and I can sort of relate--my H does not have many guy friends, so many of his friends are women--through the triathlon team or the gym and I was never really threatened until one time he had been going jogging with a girl he met at the gym--nothing ever happened with her, but I did question it regularly and although H does not admit, I was able to find out that he wanted to pursue something with her, but she had morals!!! She knew he was married and she knew he was married to me (unlike present OW)... Given all you and Wolfie have gone through, I think you just need to state it like it is--and with MC present it should be easier to ge through. It is not unreasonable of you to ask certain things of him to restore the trust and faith in the R. Maybe put the shoe on the other foot and ask how he'd feel if you were having secret friendships with other men--platonic friendships, but secretive?--he probably would agree that he would not like it either!
Tal, I agree with you of course, and I think some can understand where boundaries are. They just dont see the red flashing lights in FF relationships. I think the more you spell it out the better that everyone understands what is kosher and what is not. Also I think of Clinton as well and how disgusting his behavior was- but truthfully my H was worse! Boy, does this hit me between the eyes. LOL Shay
I actually feel sorry for Clinton. The compartmentalising and rationalizing he did was SO typical. Most don't have the whole world seeing our private horror from the inside-out like he and his wife had to go through.
For some of us on here, it's bad enough having our families know...and giving bad advice! But can you imagine? The whole world talking about it. And judging.
I understand that Hilary commented in her book about her decision to stay. She must have felt the need to defend herself.
I am surprised at how well things went in the MC session last night. It was better than I had hoped for.
First, she talked about the observations she had made over the months of our progress. We both talked about the progress we see we've made.
Then I asked for some time to talk about the whole FF, bottom-lines & boundaries issue. I said that I was feeling very stuck when trying to discuss the subject with Wolfie. I said that--to me--it was a major crack in the foundation of our R and that I didn't want the old R, I wanted a new one with things like that addressed!
I laid it all out, what I saw as the patterns of behavior I see him do that leave him vulnerable to suddenly finding himself in situations he hadn't intended. I talked about how I saw all of this coming--but he would deny the problem, or deny that I had a right to expect him to change that behavior.
The MC, bless her heart, helped me to reframe some of this so that it wasn't making Wolfie so defensive. She told him that we BOTH had a right to expect actions that equal fidelity from each other. In a committed relationship, where there is an expectation of fidelity, it is ok to talk about defining those expectations. She said that didn't mean I was being "controlling" and she thought he was over-using that word anyway.
She said that it sounded like I thought that he was very naive about women in general and the whole ff thing. She said it sounded like I thought he had a blind spot about the whole issue. Surprisingly, he agreed and said he would bring that up with his individual counselor as something to work on. MC told him that was a good idea, because if he wanted our R, he couldn't afford to be naive about other women--as many women can be more coniving than he realizes and that makes him and our R vulnerable.
She said that, since we have both indicated that we want a better relationship and intended to stay together perminantly, that this ff blind spot thing constitutes a COMMON ENEMY so it deserves thought, discussion, and very clearly spelled-out boundaries!
She asked Wolfie what his "bottom-lines and expectations" of me were. He couldn't come up with any. He said he wasn't the "kind of person to put rules and regs into a R" and that "he'd never really thought about it much because he has always known that he could trust me 100%".
So....I took him down the line:
How would you feel if I had a guy friend that I didn't disclose? "No problem", he said.
How would you feel if you ran into me having lunch somewhere alone with this other guy and we seemed to be having an intimate conversation? "No problem", he said, he'd just join us.
OK, now say a few days later you happen on me holding hands with this other guy. "Problem", he says, that would concern him.
Ok, I tell him...I can take this all the way down the line to how would you feel if you found out that I was sleeping with the "other guy".
The MC said she wants us to write down, specifically, what our bottom lines and boundaries about fidelity are are and come back with that. I told Wolfie that if he has trouble thinking of his, he should continue thinking about the scenario of me and the "other guy" and pretend that he CAN'T take for granted that he can trust me and has to spell it all out for me. _______________________________________________________________
So...a big part of me is VERY happy that we are finally addressing this subject. I'm really appreciative that he's having an open mind enough to discuss this and is willing to talk about it without getting defensive or going into "rebellious teenager mode".
Another part of me is still amazed that he can be such a freaking BONEHEAD!!!!!!
You guys just HAVE to make it...you're like the heroine of a good movie at this point, Tal...there's just sooo much GOOD in this R...I'm rooting for you two!!!
I agree that it is major progress, and could even call it a real breakthrough.
One thing that the MC mentioned was that, until about 2 months ago, she was seeing a dynamic that kept us very stuck. Wolfie's belief that if I asked for any changes or "complained" about anything, that meant I didn't love him and shouldn't be in the R in the first place. At some point, he "got it" that it is normal to love someone very much and still there may be parts of their behavior that really tick you off. She had pointed out to him several times that if I complained about something or some behavior that was truly destructive to our R, that my asking for a change was a very LOVING thing to do.
Until he could get to that point, there was nothing I could really bring up and nothing could ever get resolved. Strange to think about how we were stuck at that place for years.
Anyway, the MC said that for the past 2 months she has seen trust rebuilding between us and that made the rest of the work easier to do.
I think we will be ok, but there's still a lot of work to do and lots of old patterns to break. It sure was a horrible a traumatic year, but I am starting to see prayers I've had for a long time being answered.
Got to sign off. I'm so tired I even skipped out on a pow-wow tonight.
Hi Tal, I'm so glad to hear your MC session was a grand success!!! You really are making progress and I agree with the note that you are the Heroine of a novel--the couple that wins in the end!! I love fairytale endings and sounds like you are heading in that direction. You really inspire me!!! I'm having a difficult time of things right now--i've posted the details/thoughts on my thread--I'm sure you've been here--it's just so hard to know and to trust that things can work out. I'm getting into a funk of "why bother" right now. Sorry to be a bummer on your thread!!! Yikes!! Nonetheless, so happy that H sees that you are loving him not trying to control him and sounds like you have an excellent MC--she's getting to the issues and really providing some solutions for you guys!!! Good job! Enjoy the weekend!
