Hi Tal!! I'm so glad this issue worked itself out for you!!! It is very clear the H wants to work on the M and wants to be with you, wants to make things better. Don't beat yourself up about the wanting to throw in the towel-it is human nature and you've been through alot to this point. H didn't throw in the towel--but remember he wasn't the one that left, he wasn't the one who had the A--if anything he has more reason to "stick it out"!!! Hang in there and you made some great analysis in hindsight of the sitch and seems you are both learning the patterns of behavior that hurt your M---Keep doing it-it is working and you are both on the road to a better, more fulfilling M!!!
Quote: The stuff your H's counsellor keeps coming back to me. There ARE people with borderline versions of personality disorders who really ARE wired to be loners!
I'm not saying Wolfie's one, but it sure would explain some of his ambivalence...he WANTS love and closeness...but feels confined by it at the same time.
This truly WOULD make it HIS problem, and thus his responsibility to make a choice and stick with it. The pathway of growth and joy, IMHO is the path forward with you...the pathway of withdrawal, comfort, solitude and later despair, lays in the other direction.
Yeah, Shiney there is more going on than the average challenges of a relationship or the average challenges of piecing.
In regard to what you said about "feeling confined", I think there is some of that going on, but...
The main problem seems to be something like a faulty filter for blocking out stimulus. I understand because I'm like that too--although nowhere near to the extreme he is.
It's like, at the end of the day, all we want to do is hole up in our room and decompress from the stress of dealing with people and little stresses all day long. It's like the tolerance level for any stimulus has been reached and there is no more room for it.
We rarely even socialize--we don't go out and do things with friends like you and CJ, or have friends over. We both jealously gaurd our alone time (together or separately) and decompression time. If I lived in the city and had to try to deal with the stimulus overload that would cause, I think I would go mad.
My maternal grandmother is like this too, even more extreme than Wolfie is. She lives in a very remote place (you have to take a boat to get to her place). No roads, no running water, no electricity. She comes over to visit family once or twice a year, but not for long. She often says that she loves her family, but can hardly stand being around people for very long. My mother is wired the same way, but less so (like me).
I know it isn't a popular notion, but I have often wondered why this particular trait seems much more common and pronounced in Native people. I know there are some real genetic differences--not to be explained away by environment and culture.
So..anyway I don't think Wolfie's problem is as extreme as my grandma's, but could get there as it seems to get stronger with age.
That definatly makes the whole thing a bit more challenging--that and the bonehead thing.
It's easy to forget the bonehead thing, as he's so intelligent and is very insightful in many ways. When it comes to our interpersonal communication, he can sometimes be nearly, um well, retarded..and that always shocks me.
Oh well...I am mathmatically retarded, so I guess we all have our areas of deficiency .
Tal, Congrats on getting this out in the open- as painful as it is, it is also healthy and he is not so much the bad guy and you are no so much the obsessing spouse. I do this all the time- in fact I caught my H ogling some woman as we walked. Then he pealed out in his car and raced home. I had myself convinced that I was boring ugly and she was hot and I couldnt live with a R like that with him looking. Forced myself to calm down, used "I" phrases and told him when he looked at other women, it made me feel unappreciated. He told me there were hookers there he thought and was shocked, he was looking at, not that woman, and he pealed out to race me home because I beat him last time- was trying to be funny. So, I think we both are trying to break the cycle with good results. Also, in regards to your H and his independence- I read a book call the highly sensitive person and it describes me and maybe him too. We need lots of down time or we are overwhelmed. We still need people but cannot handle constant stumilus. This is my very simple description so maybe there is a ton more about it in the book. Just an idea that helped me understand my shortness with people and crazy feelings at times! Just droppin in to see what happened - LOL Shay
Haven't you heard?! We made PoePad our spokesperson on the "We don't get it! " platform. Just goshin...
Quoting talitsa: I expect him to understand what I'm talking about when I talk AROUND an issue.
Sounds like your both guilty of that. When he first mentioned wanting to keep the PO box, he coulda included he intended to do so as a temporary thing ... you know just mention, "...its just for a short while."
talitsa, I'm so impressed with the outcomes of your confrontations. While they may start off a little patchy, the outcome always seems to turn out with each understanding the other's POV. I have to admit, I'm a bit envious of you. This has been a basic point of struggle for CAW & me and I'm afraid we are no closer to overcoming this hurdle.
Quoting talitsa: He said it sounded like I was being controlling when I asked those questions ... He said that had been pretty disrespectful and CONTROLLING of him.
It sounds to me that each is perceiving the other's reaction of defensiviness as controlling. That could be used a "red flag". If one feels the other's reaction is a controlling one, take a moment to ask yourself, "Did I just trigger one of those stimuli ... some sort of "hot button or defensive responses?" It your conclusion doesn't stike upon something obvious, maybe then you could ask may express the question verbally in order to avoid making a wrong assumption.
Anyway, hang in there. Each time discussions of this level have such a positve outcome, you make more comfortable and easier to maintain this level. When it becomes easier at opeining up the lines of communication like this, there will be less of those "nasty" assumptions and negative triggers.
For someone labeled as a "borderline recluse", your H seems to be doing a pretty good job of making an effort to reach out to better understand you and how his actions affect you.
Oh there IS good evidence for temperaments being largely genetic. But the environment plays a large role in shaping how that turns out.
Like you...something shaped your inheritance from Grandma into someone who guards their down time, but is not so extreme.
I think it is really, really good to recognize these idiosyncrasies in ourselves AND others, especially our S's. This REALLY helps with not personalizing everything so much!
I agree with KAW, for a "borderline...whatever!" your H is really, really showing that he doesn't WANT to be the recluse in a cabin! He is open to R stuff, it just does not come naturally to him.
Believe it or not, although I tend towards extraversion I can get "peopled out" too.
Hi Tal, When you get a chance-would you mind emailing me- phdred@sbcglobal.net I had a few questions for you about your line of work that I don't necessarily want to post on the BB... it kind of ties into my last post on my thread about OW. Thanks,
Hey all, I've been off line for a few days. It was so nice to come back and see all the great feedback and support.
Kaw, I think you're right, he coulda said "it's only temporary", but truth be told, I think he meant to keep it and only came up with the "temporary" thing once he realized he'd stepped in a big pile of horse sh!+
He's getting all the vacation time he'd ask for, so we just spent the last 4 days together, which is the longest in I can't remember when. He interacted more with the boys and their girlfriends than he normally does, and jumped in to do some housework several times (who was that man holding the broom--or was I hallucinating?). Anyway, he interacted more like he was part of the family again.
This morning, I asked what his plans are as he has a few more days off. He said he's going back to his place to clean and do more sorting and packing. I don't know how long he can possibly draw that process out.....we'll yes, I do know--maybe 5 years or so....
I'm feeling like Trying24now describes...that horrid feeling of living in limbo. Feeling periods of time when things feel like a M and like a family again...but then the leaving...seeing him walk out the door with his bags...
I keep telling myself that it's only for a little while longer.
Anyway, I agree that for a "borderline...whatever", he is trying to the best of his ability.
Well, interesting conversation last night on the phone:
He still doesn't see why I would have an issue about PO boxes and such. He wonders if he will always be under a microscope with everything he does scrutinized.
I said I don't do that now, why would I do it later? Yes, I do expect that we will consult with each other on things that affect us both. Yes, I expect he will disclose things that I have a right to know about....but
I would feel much more comfortable if he were really aware of how he set himself up. He seems to still be baffled that a relationship with one of his female friends went from 0 - 60 in 5 seconds.
He thinks the REAL problem is all about his cut-and-run-want-to-be-alone stuff. He is working with his counselor on identifying when he first begins to feel that way, and comes to me to talk about it. He wants me to help him figure out what is going on that is making him feel that way: something at work, something going on in our family, or whatever. He says he is afraid about how to do this, because he worries that all of my "stuff" about abandonment will kick in and all I will hear is that he wants to leave. He said what he needs me to do is see that he's coming to me because he really DOESN'T want to run and he needs my help to pull him back in.
I said that's great & I'm hopefull that it would help alot.
I said I'd like to come to him to talk about it when I'm feeling insecure, suspicious, whatever...without him getting defensive, or feeling horribly guilty, or doing the rebellious teenager routine, or feel like I was putting him under a microscope. What I really need when I come to him with such things is reassurance.
I said that what I was asking for was very similar. If we can look at things as working at a team, instead of getting all reactionary, it might work. I guess it's going to take a lot of practice.
Well, I'm struggling with how I want to say the things I want to say in MC tonight.
Several years before the bomb, I found a printed out email (I still wonder if he left it accidently on purpose for me to find). The email was to an old ff from high school. They had obviously been having some fairly emotionally intimate conversations via email and instant messaging. In the email, he talked about loving his family, loving me, but sometimes wanting this solitude thing and part of that was that he "missed being with different women".
We had a big blow-out after that. It wasn't just the content of the email, but the fact that he was having these discussions with a single ff that he hadn't told me about. I felt very betrayed and insisted that we see a counselor, which we did a few times. I said that I saw a pattern of behavior that, if continued, would lead to him sabotaging our R and being unfaithful. Supposably, all that was discussed and resolved at that time.
When the bomb blew this last January, I started checking to see how big and how deep the betrayal had been. Not only had the internet R with the first woman continued all of this time, but there were one or two others. The emails referenced cell phone conversations between them too. At one point, I called one of the women, explained who I was, and asked what exactly was the nature of her relationship with my spouse.
She told me that they were just friends, and that they talked occasionally. She said that he told her "all about me" and talked about how much he loved me and that I was beautiful, etc. I told her that I was very uncomfortable with him having secret Rs with female friends and that one had led to him being unfaithful.
Wolfie seems to be oblivious to the fact that he set himself up to be unfaithful with this behavior. I want him to be VERY CLEAR on the fact that it is unacceptable to me that he have undisclosed, overly-intimate Rs with single women, then say, "opps--I don't know how THAT got out of hand".
When I try to discuss this, he seems to think that it is all about me wanting to monitor him, put his every move under a microscope, and be suspicious of him all the time.
What I want is just the opposite. I want to be able to trust that he will have the maturity, loyalty, integrity and honesty not to continue that behavior. I don't want to feel that I have to check up on him. I want to know that he GETS IT and that I can trust him.
I want to be very clear about the fact that it is absolutely unacceptable to me if he has "secret pockets" in his life where this behavior occurs and that if he wants to be with me, he's got to quit playing with fire before he burns the whole house down.
As I said, I'm trying to figure out how to express all of this in MC tonight. Any suggestions or feedback would be very much appreciated.
Well, you know if you've read any of my r history that I can relate to this...
H had a single FF a few years ago and their r developed into a relationship that I was very uncomfortable with (mostly the "alone" time they spent together). We went to MC over it (among other things). He never seemed to understand that I didn't want him to END the friendship just integrate it better into the m/stop all the secrecy. He saw that as the be all and end all of controlling behavior! What finally broke was he went over to dinner at her apartment one night and the next MC I just broke down and said that I could deal with the extent of their r anymore and that I just needed to move on. He "seemed" to end it then and there (NOT what I was asking for!). Don't know for sure.
Then, of course, recent ow started out as a "friend". Their r. unfolded very differently...much more overt (group hanging out) in some ways but obviously VERY secret in others. She's married, too, though, so it's not just single folks.
Now h has been talking a lot about a woman at law school. I'd be lying if I said anything but sometimes my heart just sinks when he mentions her...not because I think there's anything going on (God forbid!) but because I just don't think I can relive the months and months of wondering re. ow. I guess I'm just living in the past.
I don't know what the right solution is for me or for you guys. I WISH that h would recognize and acknowledge how hard this is for me right now -- even saying something like "maybe you're worried that J and I will become too close..how can I help with that?" but that's the cheeseless tunnel of "wanting him to change". My current approach is to recognize a couple of things...first off that I AM reliving some of the past and that's where a lot of my anxiety is...and also that I have some behaviors around these friendships that probably doesn't help matters any. This IS the topic that keeps me up at night, though. I think the end solution for me will just be to constantly remind myself that I can't control h and that he (and only he) is responsible for his fidelity...I won't be able to control him and his r's. But I can control me and what I decide I can live with, no? That may not feel like a tenable solution for you, though.
Anyway...nice thread hijack, huh?
I guess my suggestion would be to articulate that you see you and Wolfie at polarized positions right now and ask if you can work on some sort of compromise/win-win situation where you feel comfortable with the level of intimacy he develops with ow and he doesn't feel controlled.
Let me know how you do it
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
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) 
Just goshin...
(who was that man holding the broom--or was I hallucinating?). Anyway, he interacted more like he was part of the family again.