Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy The unfaithful wife...that's me..

Well, I know in Texas that a child at the age of 12 can put in a preference for where they want to live and the judge will decide. I learned this after talking to an attourney with my W. This concerned my W as my D11 has already said she would prefer to live with me. My W said she would fight me on it, but it will come down to what the judge decides. I would take her in a heartbeat except that I don't want my D7 feeling left out without her bigger sister as all they have are each other thanks to my W. So I wouldn't pursue that for myself. I'd rather keep them together since they already have no choice in this matter. Now when they are older and can both decide, I may reconsider as I trust myself to raise them better than my W at this point and time. Maybe she will change my mind later, but right now, she has issues that concern me.

What kind of relationship do your daughter and son have? It sounds like they are already living apart. But if they could be together, would it help each of them? Might be a good consideration.

Kevin

Well, I talked to S13 last night a little bit and he is okay with how things are. He is sad, but wants to stay there. I don't blame him. He is 13 and it is his choice and I will respect that. They have a good relationship but they are 9 years apart. In five years, he would be moving out to go to college or be on his own, anyway. They have been living apart (the kids) for the last six months and they seem to be doing okay with it. She is a good "only child" and he was used to being and "only child" for nine years before she came along anyway. He was fine with her the first two years but now she's getting aggravating to him a little so at times it is probably a relief to not have to have her around.

lmao. MIL tells me last night that H was always the "pouty" kid. So I can imagine that yeah, whenever he threw a tantrum, he got his way and that is what he is doing now. And with them it still works. Because if she shows up with OW again at their house, they are so glad to see HIM that they will put aside their feelings about her. They are so glad to see HIM, that they will put aside their feelings about them sleeping in the same room. My parents would have told me "don't come home again til you can act right."

His parents aren't strong enough to do that.

I know I will have to see him today to drop off DS and that he will tell me that nothing is going on, and I don't know what I will say in response. Probably just "okay. have a nice day." and go on. I don't know. Agree, BA, that it is just out of spite, though, and payback. Do I really want to be married to someone who does things just for "payback"?

Right now, I feel like everything he is going to try to do and say, is just to protect his precious career. I'm not sure what effects a No-Contact order would have on his career. He just hit 15 years in December. Doubt they would kick him out because of it, but I'm not sure. Guess I'll call base legal tomorrow and find out, just so I know. I bet he does call the counselor and make and appt. I imagine he'll prolly kick OW out now, depending on how unsure he feels about whether I file a complaint or not. I've thought about threatening to file one if she's not out by xxx day. Like Friday. That way he understands. At that point the marriage has to be totally over because there will be no coming back from that. But then, is there any coming back from this???

I may have had an A, but I sure as heck didn't take him home to Momma and Daddy and let him sleep in the bed that I had only ever shared with my wife. I'll never sleep in that bed again. And I didn't take him home and take him out with all my friends at home either. How do any of us move on from that?? I feel like "Well, at least I didn't move OM in and parade him around in front of my friends and family as your replacement." I know that's wrong, to feel that way. Two wrongs don't make a right, but he's crossed so many lines, whereas I only crossed a few. Big ones, mind you, but still. Home to Mom and Dad??? WTH???

Mel

mel,

TWO separate issues. Chain of command, vs Legal aid. They do not have to "communicate" with each other and the issues are best left separate. Usually.
Be careful about what you report to his chain of command if that's what you were saying. But base legal (I was JAGC in case I didn't tell you) will assist you in filing, or if they can't file they can assist and counsel (Sometimes the local Bar association lobbies to keep the military lawyers away from potential "customers," so the legal assistance lawyers have their hands tied, in SOME states).....okay, so base legal can represent or counsel YOU, and he can get his own there too. Be the first one at the office if possible, to reduce the chance of a conflict of interest in the JAG office. YOu want to be first b/c you'll get the more experienced L, usually.

This is separate from adultery charges or anything that would hurt his career. Most commanders won't use strictly domestic issues against their soldiers now if it's non-violent and doesn't affect their jobs (so, no violence, no threats, no drugs, and for your h, alcoholism is likely his biggest military problem). Cheating with OW if she's active duty or the wife of a soldier is different b/c it has military relevance. But that's not relevant to what you do legally to divorce him if that's what you want to do.

Yes, I'd feel used and abused too much now. You are setting and enforcing boundaries that really need no explanation. Your h can pretend or even convince himself that he's "still right no matter what" because you wronged him long ago. Stop living in the past. Apparently his doling out of your punishment isn't quite done yet, or maybe he's got lots and lots of punishment left for you. Who knows if it'll ever end? So, you end it. You stop the punishment b/c you aren't taking it anymore. You're done.

You can swim to the other side now. Don't look back. That does not mean he can't swim after you if and when he's man enough to make the inner journey to see his own flaws and to work on them, with you. He can do all that someday if he's up to it. I've seen divorced couples remarry in my own family, with two diff relatives so it does happen.

But for now You are busy, GAL and having a PMA and being as available to your son as possible when you do see him. AT this age, it's imperative for boys to be with their dads. Sure, your h will bad mouth you but your son is not stupid. Show him how much you love HIM, your son, and eventually he'll see the light. I assume he'll know "you had the A first!" to which you'll say, someday long away from today, "I did have a brief A which was wrong, but I never meant to hurt your dad. We had problems and I wish I'd handled them differently..." In most staes, bad mouthing the other parent is called "parental alienation" and hurts the cause of the whining complaining spouse and they can actually lose custody for this. Careful what you say about h, of course. But let h know you are aware of this fact so you will be monitoring what he tells the kids and the amount of disrespect and badmouthing to protect your R's with the children as you help him to protect his R with them. And remind him, if you do so in a positive mature way, that you are the mother of his children and he is the father and you'll always honor that but you expect the same from him, period.)

He's a soldier, he knows what honor means. This will test you both but you can assure him you will live up to it. BTW, when one parent bad mouth's the other but the other does not respond in kind, in the long run, studies show that the one who was gracious is the one the kids respect the most afterwards and usually is the one they are closest to. So in this arena it seems karma does happen but it can take awhile.

My present problem with your h is that I believe that a lot of what your h does today, is intended to hurt you. Not so honorable. Your A was not intended to hurt him and you took responsibility for it long ago. But his public flaunting of OW and ridiculous denials to you, must be difficult for you. I'm sorry but that's how I see it. And who the hell wants or needs that? What healthy person can take that?
He must be one miserable man/child to "enjoy revenge" so much that he's willing to model terrible behavior for your children, and his own mother...and these are not the actions of someone trying to be "your friend" so let's drop that charade too. Not saying be mean, just honest and real. Lying about being friends or OW being a roomate insults both of you; and you need to move forward with how your R will be from now on as you try to raise two children in two homes. You can also say that when the time comes, you'll be sure to keep OM away from d4 until you've discussed it with a c, and that you'll always remind her that h is her dad and no one will replace him. This reminds him that someday you will date again, (and not be pining for him forever) but in a way that gently models how you'd like to be treated.

I still say stay calm. If nothing else, your refusal to engage with his drama and craziness irks him, and that's worth something...plus your kids will see it all. Your grace in this adversity (or "defeat", however you want to see this). I think the defeat would come in continuing this.

Please please see if you can arrange a DB coaching session. (Also I'm trying to give you my number or email but don't know how to do that without violating rules for the board that I haven't even read. ) They'll give you specifics you need to get thru this.

To me, there is No need for R talk. See a L.

If you go ahead with a D, (and I'm always open to a miracle), then let the L's do the ugly talk. No fighting over what time to pick the kids up, or money amounts or anything for now. "TALK TO THE L B/C THE W AIN'T LISTENING..."

I cannot believe how often spouses fight over small things and then still spend the money on the L's. At SOME point in the future you will not need a L to tell you that trading two days makes sense. OF course that is the way you would like to interact. But that day is not now. For NOW, you need to let the Ls' handle his tantrums which he WILL throw. You must remain calm as much as possible. I think it throws him and gets him thinking. I KNOW that when you yell at him, he feels vindicated. "See, she's a b----, and SHE cheated first, so whatever I do now and forever and ever, is RIGHT!"

L's don't rip you off the way most people suggest. I mean, just see a L, ask about their fees and know you'll get some back if it goes unused. Besides, the military legal aid is free. Start with them.

And Be careful about any "conditions" you want to impose that may not be enforceable at law. You can ask him to keep OW away from your d, and it totally lacks class to him not to simply know this, but I don't know what your state says about that. Ask the L what conditions you can attach to the terms.

Also as for your mil, what's up with her? She didn't want to tell you the truth or he'd be mad at her...but she didn't want to lie for him either? I can understand that actually. But you're also saying she enabled deceit and adultery in her home and with her grandchildren? Is that what you are saying?

She sounds really weak. My h's Godmother was the only one on his side of the family to say "WTH are you doing to your family?!?"

She was mil's bff growing up, and when she asked me what mil was telling h, I said "Mil never critisizes h and I've never heard her say a critical remark ever in almost 30 years. If h had killed me (he wouldn't, but by way of example...) she'd have said, "oh, too bad....you probably shouldn't have done that..."

So Godmother simply stated, "X' (mil) has always been weak..." and that was that. Some moms are weak when it comes to telling their children when they've screwed up and it is harder when they're older b/c we can "lose" them and they don't have to be at home. Don't raise a son like that. It is up to us as mothers to keep our boys from turning into "men" like that. Our s22 recently broke up with his gf and we discussed the wording ahead of time, to minimize her pain (he wasn't "in love" with her and there was no chemistry, but how do you tell a 20 y/o that?) and he came in later that night with tears in his eyes. He said "I feel sick to my stomach. She cried and said she loved me and always would but she wished she could hate me..." and i said "so your tears are for her? He said "I've never made someone cry before and I hate it..." I was touched and proud of him. He'll make a good husband.

IOW, if MIL tells your h off, he can threaten to walk out and nver bring her grandkids around so you should reassure her of a continuing R with d4 that you'll always support...She's stuck, and probably weak.

So, call military legal assistance and make an appointment. ASAP.

At 15 years in, you're entitled to some health benefits (don't tell me you don't need them!) and PLEASE make sure you ask what benefits accrue and do not, at what time period. For instance, I had a w come in for a well deserved divorce but she had 19 years of m to her military h. All 19 years of her m were as a military wife and I told her if he's not violent, can you hang on 1 more year, b/c at 20 years she'd get health care insurance coverage the rest of her life. She said "YES!"
and waited the remainder of the time. She also got the commissary benefits and it didn't cost her h anything for that. But Similar things about his military retirement to which you are entitled to part. That's right. Your h may not enjoy learning of this and literally may get out of the military early just to hurt you. I had a client leave 5 months before his 20 years to keep his w from getting half his retirement...seriously. Cut off his nose to spite his face...but other benefits don't cost the soldier a cent, and help you. But your h can be punitive so don't set him off just yet. Know your rights. My sister was married 13 years to her h and had no kids and no job but a college degree. Irrelevant. All that mattered was her 13 years and so, 13 of 20 years...she got half of THAT which was about 37% of his retirement and she gets that regardless of whether she remarries. She still gets it. It helps. NO health insurance or alimony but really that is rarer these days anyhow. So she actually did well and I knew he signed off fast, so I assumed OW and sure enough there was. So what? Point is, she gets 37% of his military retirement to this day...so, don't relinquish that. It is not from HIM, it's from the military b/c you sacrificed by living in MINOT???? and wherever else, to support a service member serving his nation and you had kids too...

How many years of M and how many of those years was he in the military? There's a formula for figuring out what yours will be. And he has to make it to 20 years which is why you should NOT hurt his military career. It hurts YOU...make sense?
If you are m for 15 years and he has all of those in the military, then you'd get half of 75% of his retirement. FIB has my email if you want. This sounds more complicated than it is. But see a JAG officer and they'll tell you this and what benefits you gain/lose and when. For now, don't involve his command, okay? It's not in YOUR interest. Hope this all makes sense and I didn't just overload you.

Good luck,
((( j )))

How are you hanging in there Mel? Everything going ok? My W's family is just like yours. If my W brings someone else to bed with her, no biggie. Thats life. Thats their perspective. Sucks that some families are ok with it. My family is like yours. If I brought home OW they'd be like, yall need to leave and be telling me to get my act together. Some families have morals and values and some don't. My W told me she was different than her family before we got married and I believed her. Apparently that wasn't the truth. I should have known better. But she seemed sincere. And I bought it. Big mistake on my part. Now she has reverted right back to the way of her family and background.

Kevin

I mean my W's family is just like your H's family, not yours.

Kevin

Mel,

Hang in there! Thanks for posting on my thread..I answered your ????'s by the way.

Hi J, Kev, and VanDad,

J, thanks for the input. I will call base legal tomorrow and ask them about the help. He had gone out there last August and was happy to tell me that they won't take me (same reasons you cited) and that is fine. I'd rather find a low-down dirty snake in the grass, anyway, if you know what I mean. Last night when he brought the kids (after he had talked to MIL and BIL) he wanted to say something, but I cut him off, said "YA'LL have a good night" and shut the door loudly in his face and locked it and bolted the chain. Then the kids and I laid on the floor and watched Cars. Today we went and saw hotel for dogs and it was good. We all had a good time.

Talked to S13. OW is driving him crazy cause she pushes him around. Amazing how H will allow that. I told S13 to tell her to go get bent. She can bring her own stuff in from the car. Probably not a great idea, but he does not have to take her stuff either. H wants to believe S13 likes her okay, but know from what he said that he hates her for the most part. Which makes the 4 year old in me feel great.

H was already in USAF when we married. So. We have been married 13.5 years (will be 14 in August) and he hit his 15 year mark in December. So either 13 or 14 years out of the 20 he will have been in. Not sure how to do the calcs.

I did tell MIL that I would always keep the kids in contact with her. Heck, I wouldn't even mind going to visit them for a few days. I really do love them a lot. She was totally dirt poor growing up, so she overcompensated for H when he was little and even now. I can understand that, but at the same time, come on. She loves my kids to no end and that is heartwarming, because I don't always feel like my parents do.

Sometimes it amazes me that I still want to be married to this man. WTH is WRONG WITH ME????

Okay. So. Tomorrow. Call base legal tomorrow morning and make 100% sure that he wasn't lying to me. Call some Ls I know, including the one that is a snake. Then I have a C appt tomorrow afternoon. This is going to eat up my hour, but the USAF is paying for it so... I'll my 12 copay and go on down the road.

Trying to debate whether to call MIL or not. Feel like I shouldn't, that she would call me if she needed to, but at the same time...I can't help it. I'm curious. I imagine he told her not to call me anymore though.

J, do you really think, NOT to ask for a no-contact order? I don't want him to get in trouble-trouble, I just want her out of my house until we are divorced. The house is still in my name. We are still married. She is married to someone else. Lastly, they are both kind of same career field. She is cop. He is combat arms. She tried to cross-train to combat arms this month but they declined her and told her she could go K9 instead. It was her second choice, but she didn't think she would get it. LMAO. So now she either has to take K9 or get forced out in July. And so, H says she is separating in July. Who would not want to work with dawgs??? Her H is back in Hawaii taking care of her two kids, one of which is hers. MIL says she was complaining about how controlling he was and I imagine they will D and she will just continue to live with H until she...prolly gets pregnant and convinces him to marry her. who knows? she was supposed to go TDY in October. Didn't because she pees all over herself. And still hasn't gone to pick up her kids from Hawaii. I'm biting my tongue. H has always managed to get himself involved with trash. Sometimes he's just like a trash-magnet or something.

Reminds me...once he brought home people from the bar that he did not know from Adam. It was 12 at night and they go home and get their D19 before coming over to our house. He wakes me up and tells me to come see these great people he found at the bar. And then their D19 proceeds to tell us all about the time she got raped by her boyfriend's dad. Did I mention he was attracted to trash??

Will wait til I see you on again and then will post some contact info. I don't know anyone on here and don't even know how to begin to put out that info. Will figure out something next time I see you on. I will try to stay on tonight and watch for you.

Okay.

Points made.

Will let ya'll know how it goes tomorrow.

Mel

Well, I just got off the phone with MIL.

This is the jist of it,
"You know, Mel, H just can't trust you right now, and he doesn't think he ever will. He's really hurt and angry. He says OW doesn't mean anything. He doesn't love her. I don't think he's having sex with her. He's just thinks he should be helping her. He can't get past everything. I know he's drinking again, and I hope it doesn't get as bad as it was before. I think OW will move on down the road sooner or later. We don't like her. But you know, again, he's really hurt and he doesn't know if he'll ever be able to trust you again. He says he loves you, but he just wants to be by himself."

Then she tells me, laughingly, but still serious, to go out and find somebody to be here when he picks the kids up or drops them off to make him jealous. LMAO. All it would probably do is reinforce his beliefs. Then she even tells me to get the D, find somebody else, (I FOUND ME!!), and rub it in his face that way.

So...there ya'll go. She also said he wants to stay on good terms for the kids, and that's fine. The kids are all we have to discuss. I won't file a formal complaint, although I would happily consider a no-contact order if I knew it wouldn't jeaporadize his career.

Still am going to call lawyer and base legal tomorrow.
Still go see C tomorrow.

I feel...I don't know how...because I have realized my mistakes in the M, but he/they refuse to recognize his. Well, she said he recognizes the drinking, but that then he tried to become someone he's not by NOT DRINKING. Does that make sense to anyone?? She said he tried to change himself to become what I wanted. By not drinking??? Are you kidding me??

Does this sound absurd to anyone else?

On the learning curve, I was able to recognize, during the conversation with MIL, that to them, this is all about my A, too. That THAT was the problem. Nothing else was a problem or issue to be resolved. The drinking had been resolved so it wasn't a problem anymore, to them. So that was kind of first for me, to see thru that a little. I'm sure some of you will say, "yeah, how could you have missed it???", but for me, it's big.

J, I read this in "Emtional Vampires: Dealing With People Who Drain You Dry" by Dr. Albert Bernstein. It will tell you exactly how I feel arguing with H, and the shutdown that results.
"A common experience when Bullies attack is not being able to think and not knowing what to say. This happens because the parts of your brain that control thinking and language have been short-circuited. There is no greater isolation that being separated from your own mind."
"A Bully assault can bypass the rational part of your brain and set you down in a prehistoric alternate reality where there are only three choices: fight back, run away, or stand still and be eaten. It's the perfect bind; no matter which one you choose, you lose. The newer, smarter parts of your brain may realize what's happening, but they're so awash in chemicals and primitive impulses that they can do nothing but watch in horror as the grim drama unfolds."

I'd say that about covers it!!

Mel

Mel,
Said it before, you need to slow down and breathe - I think you may be acting before thinking things through. I think the last tells you that he needs time - his time not yours. that is the hardest part. While I am dealing with a H who hurt me -and expects instant forgiveness and togetherness -he doesn't understand my need to heal and become prepared to work on the R.
I also debated whether or not to mention my past -but I had two A during my first M and no one ever knew it. Meanwhile, my XH was having A on his own which he did not hide. It was easier for me to be understanding when no one else did. The difference for me was that my activity was unnoticable to this day. But he was out in the open about it when he should have shown respect and concern for what the kids would think. My point, I think we may have more in common than it seemed at first. I would say that you have a lot of work to do on yourself before you can work on your M just as he needs to deal with his drinking and the hurt he feels. Everyone's timing is different which makes it difficult at times but not impossible if you can wait. You have kids with this man - a D will not change that - no matter what he does or you do - you will both be the parents that your children will love regardless of what you do. You both will continue to be in each other's lives for the rest of your lives. I have been amazed at how much my XH and I have contact and remain involved despite our D because of the children's lives. If I had understood that fact then - things might be different. Luck for us, we have been friends afterall. There is no doubt that you can do things on your own - it looks like you do anyway. the point is, M is about hurting each other and learning to let go of the hurt. To be steadfast, allow the negative emotions with the positive ones. Give it time I think that is what committment means.

Mel,

don't confuse my advice with telling you not to get the "no contact" order. You can get that.All I'm saying is every woman who ranted / vented to a commander about A's or drinking too much of their soldier h's, was sorry later b/c they broke the dinner plate, so to speak. I recall one w was so angry, understandably, that her h had cheated (with a new recruit and the Army DOES care if there are rank disparities in A's) that she ran it up the flag pole 'til a flippin' full bird had it on his desk. H was an officer with one DUI from 5 years earlier. They gave him a general discharge under other than honorable...MEANING, the family and soldier had to get out of the housing within 60 days, find a place to live but without dad's income, so kids are moving and switching schools, say bye bye to health insurance and there's no income either...nice touch. She sure showed him!

Even though he brought it on his family and self, if she had been calmer and filed for D, contrast what she'd have gotten instead of nothing but tossed on the streets-- she'd have gotten support income//retirement forever, could have stayed in the house pending a divorce, each kid and she would also have had health insurance for all, and benefits! All that is gone when he gets discharged and isn't allowed to retire. (Well, Vet loans for houses remain and some others, but nothing compared to retirement benefits and the ones she'd have retained while he was still active. Don't cut off the nose to spite your face and last but not least, it'll look vindictive and the kids will blame you for the consequences of your anger since it'll mean putting the anger ahead of what is best for the kids.

Since OW isn't an OW, what's the problem? Let it sort itself out and don't carp about her. You'll force h to defend her and his choice, instead of realizing the opposite. That R is already running its' course and making snide remarks slows that down. Reassure your son you love him and refer him to his dad. Keep putting those choices/outcomes back to h.

Also, unless there is literally only one JAGC there, you can get a different L in the office or have someone else assigned. An admin law officer I knew actually had done Legal assistance before I came along, so she had way more experience but no one would know that if they just walked in. Don't let your h fool you into not getting one. And by the way, civilian attorneys (and I'm one now) often do not know the military rules and you won't be better served by getting one unless you must. Some of this is fairly cut and dried, assuming he doesn't get out early to punish you...again, remain calm.

Forget your mil's probably well meaning comments. She is a filter thru which he is talking and thru which her own hopes and biases are entered. She is also repeating like a mantra, "you cheated" "he can't trust you" and you can say "then he likes holding onto reasons for anger and I want to move forward in my life"....be done with A talk. happened Long ago, you apologized, you are not defending it (though at some level doesn't anyone just wonder a tad if your h played some tiny little role in it...hmmm? hhhhmmmm?? what's that? No? Oh, of course...back to YOU and YOUR faults...)and you are no longer engaged in it and that is that. He's living in the past with his anger AND no one thinks ow isn't an OW...she is. His flaunting their innocent friendship is wildly inappropriatea and again, aimed at inflicting pain. If anyone is a victime TODAY, it's you.

So, see a military L first. If they really cannot see you (and I find that hard to believe, really) then they'll have a list of attorneys there fpr up to see that have at least asked to get referrals. Get one that is a former JAG if you can, but ask around first.

I've seen several civilian attorneys at courtmartial and with ONE exception,they ALL screwed up the case. Each and every time, save one (and he was Charles Gittins, a former JAG, and he was quite good) the civilian L without military experience will somehow blow it in front of a military judge. They just have outdated info or blow it or think they're smarter or whatever. It's an amazing percentage of bad L's to good L's though, when it comes to civilians and the military. I had a partner (JAG) who had gone to Harvard ROTC and we were talking with the civ def counsel who was a moron who thought Article 15's were awards (for those of you who don't know, an Art 15 is not good news, it's BAD news you get in lieu of more punishment like at a courtmartial, so I'm glad I could help.

My first murder case (I was on the defense and no, I didn't ask for that...) and a civilian attorney was hired to be "lead counsel" and I was there "to HELP him if he needed something..." anyhow, he lost the case badly and the def got the death penalty. I raised an issue on appeal that the civilian did not raise; he raised a different one. The appeals court reversed based on my argument alone. Then the egomaniac L got in front of the Supreme court steps on TV and railed against our system, with killer's mom (I mean ACCUSED killer's mom) standing there praising the civilian L ..and yes he took credit for everything. As my colleague pointed out, "at least the family had to mortgage their house to pay civilian lawyer..." and that comforted me...Oh sidenote, when asked about the "possibility her son murdered innocent man", she replied "even if he did do it, is that so wrong in the context of our times?" That was in the paper and I cut it out. that quote....somehow I find it all a slippery slope about what is okay to do these days. Like we are more barbaric now and should be cut some slack...hmmm, gee I thought the middle ages were something to move forward from...

I digress. You have much to consider. thanks for the links though I think I got out too long ago. I do wonder about getting a credential in another state and waiving in, which I think you suggested? Anyhow, FIB and frankd and brandnewday have my numbers, or used to. My hard drive died 10 months ago so older numbers are also gone.

Talk to you soon, get the L and ask if the no contact order would matter to the command. I doubt it, but it's been awhile for me.
I think your limbo is ending soon though. Thank God. I pray for the confusion that comes with wondering what to do when your h wakes up. OR, that the confusion will end for you and you'll find peace within, and eventually a good man to share it with. Remember the "honor the father of your children wording" you can repeat to him. Stay on message like a candidate for mayor, okay? No sucking into the wind, you want to talk with a witness (c) so you are sure you'll understand him, and be understood and not later misunderstood (read-misquoted) .

I'm tired and babbling. Hope this helps. Oh and Get me a job...
(( j ))