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Preparing new thread. FIB

: ) Most people just post it... You surgeons always prepping stuff.

FIB,

My ex-Brother in law is an orthopedic surgeon in Thailand who also has an ungrateful wife. I have always had the highest respect for him and hope he visits me when he comes to the USA in February. I asked him once what the worst part of his occupation is and it was the emotional aspect of informing family of bad news. You have great strength to be dealing with your own breakup of your family in addition to witnessing much more life changing events in others lives.

Hey FIB, how are you? Just stopping in to say hi, my friend and hoping that acceptance for you also means accepting that you have done all you can and that you are a good person.

FIB,

As a doctor's wife, and the mother of that doctor's children, your post and its' timing hit me weirdly hard. We've touched on some of these issues before. Forgive me for reacting this way if it seems off the mark. Maybe a tiny part of what I'm feeling is what your wife subconsciously has felt, before her "wacky and inexplicable Illness" began. I don't know. Maybe it'll be useful for your own insights into how to move forward with other women, down the road, or with your children, vis a vis your work.

I saw someone else post the words about an "ungrateful wife" referring to a doctor's wife, and I have to say it made me bristle. Pushed a big button to my surprise. A lot. Why should a woman be "grateful" that her h is a doctor or had a good day at work. NO OFFENSE, but maybe the pats on the back you get at work, belong there. If your child has a toothache, your day at work isn't her concern, her toothache is. In the child's mind, daddy the doctor should be there to put the bacitracin and band aid on.

My words don't mean your wife feels them, now or ever or sub-consciously. But I bet a few do apply. But I thought I'd share some of my reaction to your words and see if anything "sticks" to you, or helps you in your up and coming new life.

The whole "Doctor" thing/lifestyle image is a two edged sword. Most people assume a high income and there are those out there who seek that in a person, and I am wary of them. There are women who fantasize about marrying a man with a title, money or rank, and little else matters to them, relatively speaking. They are to be avoided, just as I'd avoid a man who was too interested in what type of income I earn when learning of my profession.

For the record, most of our doctor friends are wonderful people with good hearts, and given what it takes to get there, no one can say someone becomes a doctor for the money, these days. Not with the long hours and years of earning peanuts and the liabilities, etc. But here's the thing.

The blurring of the line between your being the "Captain of the ship" surgeon in the OR and the guy at home... it isn't a great match sometimes.

Yesterday h had a fight with s22 and was bossing the heck out of everyone here, including me. As objectively as I can be in describing it, it felt as if he thought he was in the OR again, and in a "Code" situation and was ordering us to assist in the resuscitation of the patient. Except it was yard work he wanted help with...wth?
H was truly angry and his rage seemed to be partly incredulity on his part. "How DARE" s22 disagree with him or complain. That's a quote. H lost it. (Sigh). If he only knew how much he sounds like his military father did, when he returned from Vietnam...according to h, so I guess we all revert to negative role models if we don't have any positive ones to replace the negative ones in times of stress...(NOTE to self: get positive role models!)

D19 is going to Moscow and Europe for next semester, and leaves in a few days. We've done a lot of talking lately. Due to h's continued absences, there is an awkwardness at home at times, (other times there's laughter though). She said "Dad's like an outsider in high school who wants to be in the "in" crowd, but forgot he has to be home to be 'in' the crowd". Last night D19 told me she'd "never marry a doctor"...ouch. And we're supposed to be a SUCCESS STORY in reconciliation! wth? Doesn't feel like it right now. Backslide.

D19 has shared a lot lately about how it was to be a doctor's child. She does not like telling people he's a doctor usually, b/c they seem to assume she's spoiled and that we're rich. But when pressed, she admits she knows he does good things at work, and he helps people and it's better than saying he's digging ditches...but she also said, "Dad was always busy when I was growing up and left for my last 2 years at home, so I guess I'm not that interested in what he does at the hospital for other people since he's not that interested in me or my life..." ouch.
When he was on call, she said "I don't always want to compete with a brain tumor or a heart attack; they'll (patients) always be more important..." ouch.


D19 was a child with those feelings, but maybe your w felt some of that at some point. Does NOT justify her, but again, maybe you'll note these things in the future and what you seek out in a partner and if it's your w, look for changes in those feelings. I also remember a time when D19 was little, maybe 7 y/o, and had a bad tummy ache. She said "if we go to the hospital will daddy get to be the one to fix me and spend time with me?"
I almost cried. That happened 12 years ago. Last night she asked why she "should have to try so hard with h". I was caught off guard but said, " a lot of reasons, in addition to h being your dad. For one thing, he loves you and would kill or die for you." I want them to feel loved by him. Just wish he knew how to reach them, and me, better. The more he's away, the harder it is to reconnect with any of us, and the angrier he seems. Denies depression... I asked.

In your post you said many things I have often wondered about with the interactions at hospitals. When I was counsel at the hospital, MY interactions were of a certain unpleasant type....

Sometimes I think the kudos at work were sort of bad for our home life. Some would argue that "Work kudos belong at work", like making love belongs at home. For h, his hard work (and it IS hard work) gave a reason for assuming his "orders" should be followed at home, and that admiration was a given. In other words, his stress and long hours at work rewarded him with patient's gratitude, promotions, the respect of his colleagues and staff. At home, he's asked to take out the trash. At home, I expect an equal "vote" in decisions and yes I do sometimes question his decisions privately, which I would NOT do in an operating room or a medical issue, but WILL do in my home. I see the dichotomy, but is it unreasonable? One male author called the excessive focus on careers for men, "fast food for the starving ego" and that daily interactions at home were like small monetary deposits that would not yield immediate results,(or accolades) but compounded over time into wonderfully rewarding relationships.

I've had death penalty cases, and a case at the Supreme Court, and still cooked dinner. I've won big verdicts and still changed diapers in the middle of the night. In fact, no matter what happened at my job, I never assumed those at home should be "grateful" for me being a lawyer or their dad being a doctor. Sounds too much like gratitude for being taken in by a stranger, or some sort of hero worship expectation....hard to express. Should they be Interested? Concerned? YES! And proud if applicable. But my real job is as a mom and wife because there are other doctors and lawyers who can do what I do nearly as well, or better, but no other mom or dad of these particular children exist anywhere in the world.

Yes I know men are more defined by their work but that doesn't make your role as a father or husband less important. You admit you were once a workaholic but you changed, and I believe you. Your w's complaints about that are simply out of date so her data isn't real. For many doctors, like my h, it was as if his efforts and success at work spilled over or translated into "work" at relationships. But it's usually the opposite.
The more he gave THERE, the less we got.

He'd squeeze us in if he could, but his career, better position, better pay, more prestige, sicker patients, were CLEARLY and blatantly the priority. Notably, I bought into it too. I was proud to say what he did and felt like a part of it, in a way. As you may recall, I re-directed my own legal career to health care and it wasn't a bad move. But it was aimed not at what I loved, but at what would work best for all concerned, h, the kids--my hours were better, and my interests, in that order. This choice was not h's fault. Just a paradigm that is foreign to him. Maybe he's healthier than I am. He's taking a 2 week CME he needs and without a thought about when or where, he signed on for what he thought was best for his job. If it were me, childcare, timing, placement, etc would have come first by far. I'd pray that the legal conference would have something interesting and be happy if it did. H just books the reservations and I wouldn't even know if d19 hadn't told me.

A doc's HUSBAND once told me, "doctors are the working spoiled...they work so hard they feel entitled to whatever they want..." That doctor's marriage is over, by the way. But he had a point.

FIB, you are not like those doctors and I am so sorry for the trials and tribulations of having to tell a family news like that, or for meeting that patient at that time of her life. But it is a profound honor in a way. I never thought doing someone's will was exciting or anything. But I've done some in a hospital and that puts a whole different spin on it. Being able to help people at their saddest, scariest time, or their final days, has profundity beyond the scope of this post. Yet, it does not translate to a 7 year old, or a selfish w in her own pain.

FIB, I pray you take this post the right way. Partly it was my button getting pushed and for that part of this, I apologize for the hijack. But it's also to remind you of the fact that your job at the hospital is not truly your "life's work", is it? And second, be wary of those who are too impressed with your work. When I stuck my toe in the dating world 2 years ago when we were legally sep, I did meet a few guys who had certain expectations of me financially, that in my eyes, were out of whack. Both were men who were not "bringing much to the table" either, ironically. I met some nice men too, and when they themselves were successful, they were less concerened about my motives and I was less concerened about theirs. Make sense? I recall your w's comment about a year ago, wherein she said she couldn't "believe she had to have a job at the age of 35". I'll never forget that. What a sense of entitlement. Why? Where'd she get it? Is her family like that? Beware of the cliche'd relationships and A's between nurses and doctors (every doc's wife has that fear) but let's face it, some of the compliments you get are verbal passes. You are vulnerable.

Be careful. Hope you take this post the way it was intended.
((( j )))

PS how much longer is the situation with you and your w under the same roof, going to last?

FIB,

Checking in...Hope you are well and that my post didn't offend. So much of it was only theoretical as I'm not sure where the lines are between work and home life either, (even for me).

We all want our children to admire us, and yours do admire you.

But where you are as a man, makes lots of the typical workaholic parts inapplicable to you. In fact, I'm curious as to how your wife got through to you way back when, to cause you to change your focus. No matter now, just curious.

Just wanted to check in with you, and say "Cheers", with only a tiny hint of irony. But with all the "poop" you've been through on your journey, (and with my odd fear of jinxing), I'm still going to throw down the gauntlet and say,

"FIB, 2009 will be a year for you that is much better, more peaceful within, and with more joy surrounding you, than ever before. You are so close to having made it through the storm"...you'll get there.

By the way, I know I've asked before and if you have no answer, that's fine...
But do you have any clarity as to how long it will be until you won't have to live under the same roof? Sorry to obsess, but I'd go nuts if I had no idea how long it'd take. Limbo stinks enough as it is. Under the same roof? Yi yi yi...

Alright, so, what's a "not-so-flippin'-nightmarish divorce look like? I never knew a "happy divorce..." But I went to my HS reunion recently and saw a couple I knew from high school who'd gotten married a month after graduation, in a shot gun type of way. Considering how young they were, they did pretty darn well. He's a physician and she finished college/has a career. Had 3 kids. Went through some hard times, as med school and that life required. Stayed married for 20+ years, and then divorced. Anyhow, they now live 2 blocks from each other to enable the children to have the least disruption, same neighbors and friends and school. I even think they rotate who stays in the family home, so the kids don't move out, but I'm not sure. Both the h and the w (now 'xh' and 'xw' to each other) were at the reunion, the h didn't bring his new wife out of respect for the ex w (and the new wife probably thought she'd be bored or uncomfortable as hell - and she'd have been correct!) and ex wife brought no date. There were no surprise reconciliations or anything, and they weren't "together", but I just noted how incredibly respectful they were to each other. No one was awkward or uncomfortable that I could tell, and they proudly showed photos of their children...like they were teammates. Gotta admit, I envied them in a weird way.
Why? Maybe b/c I worry that my own m won't ultimately make it. So, I think of them, and the goal of what an "okay" divorce would look like.

Regardless, the xh told me "what 'we' wanted at age 18 usually isn't what we want or need when we're 38, or 48..." and his ex wife said something similar. I sensed no rancor in either of them. Plus of course, People change. All of this makes me ask, as your wife is now, well, would you want to marry the woman she is today?

Assuming your answer is no.....That leaves the loss of time with your children as a big fat pain. Got it. But I know fathers in the military who can be gone for long periods, or dads who travel a lot for work, or only see their kids on weekends, for all practical purposes. I have to say, many of them have great relationships with their children. [color:#660000]I just know you won't lose their hearts and you will always be close to them. I know this.

Do you have any New Year's resolutions or goals or steps planned out for your program of GAL and PMA? I'm working on mine. I need to post my own thread but am having serious repeated problems doing so. Wrote one long one, (as usual), but it deleted suddenly. Anyhow...

Happy New Year and in your case, I really mean it, and [i]I really believe it. And faith is believing.[/i] Your journey and the book of your life is about to close a chapter. Then you'll be living the next chapter and you will be authoring it. I think we'll look back a year from now and say "well done."
(( j ))

25....a lot you wrote and I will try and respond as best as I can.

First off, the weekend ended with one confrontation. I slept on the couch. My W came downstairs and somewhere between 8/830, she sat down inches away from me and snapped on the TV.

New Year's Day....a day that we normally sleep in.

I failed.

I had a remote near me and I turned off the TV
Me: "XXX...when I wake up at 530AM...I try not to wake you. I'm sleeping.

She left it off.

Next, she makes breakfast and starts eating near me, smacking her spoon into the bowl.

Next, she starts a phone conversation with her mother talking at a normal voice level.

I failed again....I should have packed it up and gone upstairs. I got up...turned the TV on loud...then turned it down.

I walked up to her and her mom was on the other line.

Me: XXX....it was inappropriate to turn on the set while I am sleeping here. I don't know why you do .....yada yada.

XXX:Ma...can ya hear this? (laughs)

I walked away.

Buttons pushed. I failed. I can't believe how immature a thing this was that she did...that she does. I've been good at missing it..till the other day.

Later, she asked me what my plans were for the day. Then I got:
W: You are such a liar. I don't think that you can tell that you live in a lie....your whole life is a lie....and you can't see it. I've told the truth throughout and all you do is lie.

Me: XXX...your projecting...and I don't want to talk about it.
W: YOU'RE PROJECTING.

She went out that night and didn't return until the wee hours.

S'OK...I got the kids for the day. That matters more.

Anger...anger....and she just can't leave me alone..even when sleeping on New Year's Day. She must punish me.

FIB

Is there some reason you can't beg, borrow, or steal a bed to go in your guest room?

Fib, part of this undertaking of yours, due to State laws, etc... comes with the unfortunate side affect of having to live with the insanity all around you and in your daily life. I do not envy you on that my friend.

However, you have to continue to "be the bigger man" as you have tried to do all along. It is not about her, it is about you and letting yourself down. Through reading your stuff I know how you end up feeling when you allow yourself to fall into the silly little traps that she lays before you. All designed to get you to make a rash decision to end the chaos and make HER life easier.

FIB, you can see the light at this point. It is in the distance and although it looks so far away, it is really so much closer than you think. Just stay focused buddy, your amazing life is only a short time away here.


Ian

FIB, come on man, we're New Yorkers! She played you and you fell for it. But no Monday morning quaterbacking. Do not engage, do not engage, do not engage. If only, in true NY fashion, to not give her the satisfaction of knowing she got to you.

FIB, count to ten, remove yourself, do not respond, go punch a pillow. She is not who you remember right now. This is who she is.

New Year, my friend. Your year.