Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums We're separated--What Now? Trixi aka "The Pitbull who can't let go"

((((Trixi)))))

Sorry that it didn't go as you had hoped.

To be completely honest - from an outside perspective, it doesn't look/feel/read like anything has changed from his side. More of the same...

- Admits he's cake eating but there's no reason to change it, so why change?

- Not sure what he wants but flip flopping like crazy.

- Wants to string you along for another month..or two... or twenty. Why not?

- Fantasy land - we're best friends, maybe even with "benefits" sometimes, everyone's happy and hunky dory with everything. Typical talk from the WAS in EVERY sitch.

- Taking little to no responsiblity for his actions, i.e. "I wish I could drive so I could go to IC." I'm sorry but the first thing that came to mind was "Oh BS - you didn't go when you COULD drive, and BTW it's your fault that you CAN'T drive so cut the 'poor me' crap!"

He's got the perfect situation right now. Wife / family when he wants it, single bachelor when he doesn't. And he knows it. And he knows you so well he's GREAT at keeping you hooked.

Now... above I said that it doesn't look different from his side. What DOES look/feel/read different is you and I am glad to see it! I think you've got a ways to go but I really see a lot of progress. You seem to be accepting that this awful "non-R" that you've been in with him is over. And it needs to be over!!



Now let's work on getting a little stronger day by day? For example here - "I don't really want to" still gave him the control. A better response I think would have been "I will not be able to take you to your arraingment or counseling." He doesn't need a reason why. And you didn't need his "permission" ("that was fine") to not take him. You don't owe him anything, including rides to places.



Want my guess? I have a feeling your conversation with SS led to you going into this discussion with high expectations that he'd finally make up his mind and commit. Which led you, most likely, to put a lot of pressure on him. What's the response to pressure? Push back!

Now with that said... there are times when you really do NEED to put some pressure on and I think something had to give in your sitch. I've felt all along that you'd get better results (for you and potentially your M) by doing the LRT than by continuing the way things were. I'm hoping that now, you'll be able to do that. It's my hope that this is what you needed to drop the rope, detach, and move forward in YOUR life.

Take good care of yourself. I know this is so hard!

(((Trixi)))

Spoke with SS earlier. Apparently H and RM have gone snowboarding today. After I left yesterday, H hid out in his bedroom for about 2 hours and when he finally came back out, SS was cold and distant. H asked what his problem was and SS said that he was extremely pissed at him. He read him the riot act and said that he couldn't believe how incredibly selfish H was being. He asked wtf he was doing having me around for Christmas and New Years and then dumping me the day after. SS told him he was making the biggest mistake of his life.

H's explanation to him was that because he had SS at such an early age, and then had focused so heavily on success at work that he hadn't had a chance to 'be on his own' and 'focus on himself'. H also said that "Maybe Trixi will change her mind and then I'll decide if I want to get back together with her". I asked SS 3 times if that was what he said because it was the exact opposite of the reality. It is up to H to come back to ME, then I will decide if I want to get back together. SS said that I was probably taking it wrong; the intent (the way he understood it) was that H would have to decide if he was ready to do what he needed. H also said the same thing about "maybe he will change his mind and maybe I will be here, maybe not."

SS wishes he could move out. In a convo between myself, SS and H, SS had said he really wanted his dad to not smoke pot in support of his sobriety. Yesterday, RM picked up a pack of cigarettes for SS (because H asked him to) and then called SS into his room and said "I'm going to give you these, but I need to make something clear. Don't you dare talk about what your dad puts into his body because you smoke and that is far worse for your body than pot. You have no right to say anything to him about that and if you ever do that again I will never buy you another pack of cigarettes--do I make myself clear?"
SS was livid. It was a convo between the 3 of us and H talked to RM about it. And who the f*ck does RM think he is? UGH I am very glad that SS is about to go into rehab for 3 weeks and get the heck out of that house. Of course, I am still worried about what will happen when he returns.

Intellectually, I know I should be running as fast as possible in the other direction. I just can't wrap my head around how much my H has regressed/immature'd.

I am going to be writing down the "requirements" that H would have to meet if he were to show back up on my doorstep. "Status Quo" is certainly not going to cut the mustard. And previously, I would have cut him slack because I was willing to "understand" his confusion. No more. He has hurt me for the last time. *If* he comes back, I will expect an immediate status change on FB; I will expect an immediate timeline be set for us to live together again; I will need to meet all of his friends within a month (or at least an attempt be made-for example a party held); I would need to see remorse and a full understanding of the hurt he has caused me. Additionally, I would expect smoking inside the house to stop; I would expect that I would have a lot more say in the decorating of the house.These things are WAY more than I would expect from some guy I was just starting to date, but we are long past those days. I'm not going to be strung along. Game over.

(((((Trixi))))))

I hope you mean it this time.

FWIW I made a similar 'list' for myself for if my H came home. When he half moved back in (as you know, unlike you guys talking all the time, we never talk!)... I was so darned happy he was here that all my "I needs..." kinda went out the window.

Only VERY recently have I realized (or maybe, re-realized) woah I have needs too... but I can't express them that well and H is basically guessing at meeting them. Oddly enough his cell phone went mysteriously missing at our party (we're guessing stolen - sucks, we've never had a problem!) - but anyway I kept thinking "Woo hoo the damn phone he kept texting her on is gone!" I forgot that this was a replacement to his prior phone when things were hot & heavy. He found his old phone and reactivated it and almost immediately went in, deleted the text history, deleted a "certiain" phone number... and told me he did so. I didn't ask, he just did it. When he first came back - I would've told myself a thousand times over "If he wants back in he better do this!!" but did I enforce it? No... not even slightly.

You guys talk sooo much it may be different for you but I wanted to mention that. You "sound" strong and you feel better writing this stuff down, and hopefully it adds to your strength - but if he came to the door RIGHT NOW and said "You should move back in Trixi, I was an idiot, lets move on" - would you? Or would you express to him what you need? Be honest with yourself here... I think you might be surprised by the answer.

BTW - your H totally "worked" that conversation to make it look like it was your choice for it to be over. He basically said it, made you repeat it, then backpedaled the whole thing. SS knows better, you know better, H knows better. Try to let it go.. he's being an a$$.

He needs to win you back. As PuppyDogTails often says he should be crawling through glass to win you. Not you groveling.

((((Trixi))))

Great 2009? Deal??

I forgot to mention - some of the "requirements" you had seemed kinda strange to me. Like the status on FB being the very first one? And you being "allowed" to decorate the house???

I dunno how to explain it but those hit me like "Ummm.. what?!?!"

One of my very top ones, if I were you, would be solution-based MC and/or IC for you both. Maybe Retro. Just SOMETHING to get you guys re-aligned again. Maybe decorating and FB are more important to you than they are to me - if so that's cool! But I suspect there's more that you truly need if you dig deep. And you deserve it.

Trixi, WAY TO GO!! I'm so proud of you woman. That's right, this is your decision. He doesn't have the power to decide your life or your happiness. He should be the one who deserves to be with you, not the other way around. You could take that phrase and print it out and have it by your desk to see everyday if you want. I find motivational phrases help me. This is also the exact message behind DB. GAL, LRT, Acting As If- All of these techniques really help you first and foremost, help you take care of yourself again- and give the M a 'last chance' if there is any possibility for it. Like Nik mentioned (and Michelle says about the LRT), pulling away and having a great life without the WAS sometimes draws them back toward you- so you are actually doing everything possible for the sitch by "moving on." May this now be the beginning of a great NEW year for you!

OMG, my stbx said the exact same thing as his reason. And in my head I keep thinking what an idiot- but it's his prob, not yours. Always remember that.

Well, actually, even though I went into our talk feeling like there would be a more positive outcome, I was a bit ambivalent that I would actually 'believe' him. When he was asking what I would need to see to show that there was forward progress, one of the things I said was that I would need to see that he understood how much he hurt me, because without that, I would worry that he would let his feelings dictate his actions. I said that I understood the desire to paint the past with a positive light (ie "look how much Trixi grew" "I needed to pursue my music") but if he couldn't see the damage he did, then how could I know it wouldn't happen again.

Sooooo, if he showed up on my doorstep RIGHT NOW-- I would tell him the list from above + more. I thought about the counseling thing and I would probably want to wrap it into a 'move back in' timeline. We have been to a couple other marriage counselors in the past without success, so I don't have a very good view of MC in general.

I know the FB thing and the getting to decorate sound sort of silly. For me, FB is something he could do within 5 minutes of arriving to show the world that he is with me. (Remember, I have been basically hidden this whole year.) So, it's what it represents to me. The decorating thing-- he has always been very interested in the decor of the house and I was fine with mission/craftsman style. But, now that I am on my own, I have gotten to express myself fully and I don't want to give that up....I think, actually, it represents more of 'me' being 'shown' to the world. Contrary to what he thinks (and how I have let things be) he isn't the center of the universe. I get to have a place in it, too. I count, for f*ck's sake! (Scuse my french.)

So, Nik, what sort of needs do you think aren't being met? I do remember when you guys were first starting towards getting back together and how exciting it would be that he would take you the races and you would get to spend all that time together. And how great you felt when he would introduce you as his W. So, obviously, we are way past that stage. I'm really curious as to what your list of requirements was/is. I am sure wearing rings was one thing, and you have that... (which reminds me, that is something else I would want...) Whatever happened to that bedroom you were prepping for yourself? Did he ever indicate that he could sense it was going to be 'yours'?

Wow, Loving_Life, you are really a cheerleader! You must be doing really well. Do you think it helps that you guys are across the country from each other? Or is it just the fine Portland weather that is bringing you so much joy? (LOL ) Are you doing a lot of meetups? Where are you in the D process?

I am sitting here with a prairie dog snuggling,I have a cute, cozy little house, my pellet stove is keeping me extra toasty, my jeep did FAB in the snow, I have a jigsaw puzzle going on my dining room table..I don't have a DUI to worry about, I don't feel the need to re-live my 20's, I don't have to drink or smoke weed to have fun....and I can look myself in the mirror and know that I have done all that I can (and more) to try to save the marriage.

I made him a "gold record" clock for Christmas with the name of his band on it. It was "The best Christmas gift" he has gotten "his whole life". (And he meant it sincerely.) He can tell me how "important" I am in his life, how nice it's been to have me at the house, that he needs me in his life and I make him a better person and yet he STILL couldn't commit. That's just sad.

I so appreciate your support--I am feeling strong this particular minute; but I know I will have weak moments and lack clear vision. For instance, next Wednesday when I drive SS to rehab, H is coming along. It's probably a 2 hour ride each way. The way there won't be bad because SS will be in the car...the way back..I'm nervous about that. OH! Not that I'll get tricked into a "lets go back to status quo"-more that he will start talking about logistics of D. I don't know if I am ready for that.

Wow Trixi, its amazing how much your H continues to waffle !!!

I agree with NikB.. that he got spooked at your expectations after talking with SS and then, pushed back at you (in a really unconvincing way I might add!)

I also think, he was unlikely to really come back until you really let him go, give him what he is asking for.. space, time, freedom.. then he might realise that isnt all its cracked up to be and then he will be looking for a new R, but she wont be you. You are his soulmate, right! But he's having a MLC :-) Arent they all.

Can you drop the rope, detach as someone here said, let him have what he says he wants and see if he really wants it?? You have alot going on between you, with SS.. and its a bit unfair of your H to give his SS hope about your R, then turn round and sort of end it with you a day later, just as SS is about to go into rehab and could do with support and stability and loving foundations to help him get sober.. not more drama! That really struck me just how selfish and immature your MLCer H is right now, he is really only thinking of himself, to do that just as the rehab is about to happen.. and the smoking pot in front of his son, like you say, as that is not helping !!!

You sound a lot better.. I agree support SS, but step back from H.

Al xxx

That was one of the things that ESPECIALLY pissed SS off. He said to H "Look, if I thought you didn't love Mama and there was nothing there to build off of, I'd agree that you should move on. But that's not the case. But because you are so selfish and immature, you dump her exactly when I need the most support and a stable environment. You want to play around with your 'boyfriend' [RM]. I need a DAD right now."

As far as I'm concerned, I am in LRT. If I wasn't dark, I would have called up my H and told him exactly how inappropriate it was to talk to the RM about SS asking him to not smoke pot to show support for his sobriety. Obviously, however H told it to him, he must have been expressing how stupid he thought it was, otherwise, RM wouldn't have thought he could say such a thing. I would also point out going to a 25yo arrogant, pot smoking, anti-marriage, self centered KID about what to do about his 11 year marriage is idiotic. BUT, since I am not dealing with his BS anymore, I'm not going to call. However, if he happens to be stuck in a car with me for a couple hours on Wednesday- it might come up.

I actually think that SS ragging on him about being a Dad and saying to stop being immature and selfish, is hurting the sitch more than helping. Seems like H is rebelling against the whole idea and it just galvanizes him to "focus on himself". Oh well.

That's good!! I am very glad to see you say this.



Yeah, it's definitely tough to find a good one.

The one we went to is GREAT but unfortunately H seems to see MC as "where you go to drop bombs on people" as opposed to "where you go to make the M happier so you don't have bombs to drop." I've asked him to go numerous times to help us work through stuff but when things are good or even just OK I get "Why would we need to go there?" ugh. I've given it up but at this point if he asked me to go I would probably panic!

If you do get to this point, one thought for you is you might ask on here for referral to a solution based / pro-M MC in your area. I think you had some coaching sessions left right? You might even ask in a future session. When I asked for the referral I let them know that I'd much rather do the phone coaching but H would only see someone in person (all true) so that's why I was asking.

I know, not something you even need to worry about right now, just wanted to throw that idea out.



Ahhh that makes sense. In that case I think you should make it a "couples" profile picture, too.



That's very cool! I didn't realize he was one of those rare guys who was actually into decorating. When we first moved in together my H thought the house looked decorated and "like it has a woman's touch" when I (gasp) put a houseplant in the window. The decorating thing totally makes sense now.



Ahh yeah, definitely past that. Now it's more the stuff below the "surface" I guess you could say. The rings were huge, yes!! That was probably the #1 thing in terms of making me feel more secure that he's at least wanting to give us a serious chance.

In terms of stuff today that's just not working - I think the biggest one is kinda what you referred to - understanding just how bad he hurt me. Or maybe it's more working through it with me. I dunno, hard to explain. I mean, I don't need to rub it in his face or anything but I truly think he doesn't get it. He understands me being upset about him moving out (sort of) but to this day seems to still think I was just over-reacting about his "friends."

Oh yeah that and the complete and total no contact outside of work. I should have seriously insisted on that. I'm still trying but if I'd done it up front it would have been a lot easier.

Just some examples...

His new phone (the one that got lost at the party) lists about 10 text messages on the screen at once as opposed to one at a time. So, if he's showing me a text from someone I end up seeing the list of the last 10 that he got. A couple of months ago he was showing me an invitation or something from one of his friends. I forget what it even was now. But I saw a couple of texts from her, too. One was obviously a reply to something he asked, so it wasn't like she just texted him out of the blue. I got really upset, tried to hide it and later realized that was dumb, I needed to tell him how I felt. He seemed genuinely shocked that it would "still" bother me. WTF?!?! He offered to show me the texts and said they were "about nothing." I told him what they were about wasn't the point, the fact that they're having any unnecessary contact outside of work was the problem. He kinda sighed and had that "OK whatever you're over-reacting but if it makes you happy fine" look / tone and said (not very sincerely) that he was sorry. CLUELESS. (BTW he DID show me the texts and yes they were pretty much about nothing - he asked what she was up to, she said cooking dinner how about you, he said working in the garage... so yeah pretty much "innocent" but again WTF?)

She also invited him to a party at her house the weekend before Christmas. At least I'm pretty sure that's what it was. It was addressed to him only - which is kinda strange for him to get from anyone at his work BESIDES her - everyone else would address it to me too. It had no name or RSVP number on it so I can't be sure, but it did have an address and if I remember right it's the street she lived on. He accidentally left it in his lunch box, which I clean out and re-fill with the next day's lunch most nights. I pulled it out and said "Hey cool, what's this? Christmas party?" Excitedly, as in, thinking we were going (hadn't seen yet that it was addressed to him only). He says kinda half embarassed, half upset "Uh yeah I meant to throw that away. It's an invitation to a party that I WILL NOT be going to." Now... GREAT that he is not going!!! But I feel like if he truly understood how much that "friendship" hurt me/us, he would have refused to even take the thing in the first place and he sure as he!! would not have accidentally left it in his lunch box. Again some conjecture here - but I am fairly sure I'm right.

I realize that a lot of this is my fault - not setting boundaries appropriately, not expressing my needs clearly and directly. Which would have been a LOT easier to do up front instead of playing "catch up" now. I should have insisted on total transparency. I feel like I should be able to look at anything on his phone anytime and not have anything on there that's inappropriate or would upset me (and vice versa - if he wants to look at my phone, email, whatever).

He also totally doesn't get why I'm still a little antsy about him going skiing, or why I flinch sometimes when the "text" sound goes off on his phone. I'm getting better but obviously the hurt's still there ya know? And I want to be able to talk to him about it without him looking at me like I'm some over-reacting crazy person.

In thinking about those things - in a lot of ways you're 'lucky' in that regard I guess. You don't have a long term EA/PA that you have to work through. Although I imagine you'd still have those kinds of "triggers" - like when he talks about the band or "making it" or whatever.

In terms of needs NOT related to getting past the EA.... the main biggie is just plain listening to me, showing more interest in me/my day/etc. If his friends are over it sometimes feels like I suddenly don't exist until they want food or something. I've had many, many times when I walk up to H to tell him something, wait for a break in the conversation, he looks right at me, I say whatever it was, and he ignores me completely, talks over me, or just starts another conversation with his friend. I've tried to talk to him about it but he has no idea he does it. It's tough to give him "examples" because I'd have to point it out in front of his friends and then of course embarass him. When I tell him examples after the fact he of course (because he was ignoring me!) doesn't remember what I'm talking about.

Although I must give a couple of his friends credit - they are starting to point it out FOR me. One of them the other day said "Dude, your wife is talking to you. She's tried to tell you the same thing about 5 times now. And it's about your racing so it's not like she's nagging you or something." H finally turned to me and said "I'm sorry, what were you trying to tell me?" I started to tell him and OMG - he got distracted and started talking over me AGAIN to the same friend that just called him out. The friend interrupted H and told him exactly the same thing I'd been trying to tell him and H was all excited about it. I jokingly "thanked" the friend and then kinda sarcastically said to H "Oh NOW I see how to get you to listen to me, I have to tell you everything via [friend's name]."

Still not sure how to address that one since obviously talking about it didn't work. The latest thing I'm trying is I simply say whatever it was once, and walk away. A few times he's missed some important information, or ended up with no lunch the next day (if he ignores the "what would you like for lunch?" or "does XYZ sound good?" question). He's eaten a few very cold dinners too. So I don't know if it's working but at least it's not driving me as crazy anymore. Once or twice it's prompted him to stop whatever new conversation he started and ask me to repeat what I said so maybe it's working a little bit.

About that bedroom - we've never talked about it. Shocking right? It gets used as a spare bedroom when we have parties and people can't drive home, but that's about the only time. In fact outside of the board here I think only a handful of people know what the original intent was. H has never asked or said a word about it. It's weird.

I honestly don't remember what my "requirements" were, or what I had planned on them being anyway. That's why I wanted to emphasize that to you - because I definitely have some regrets there. It's a lot easier to state them up front than to skip it or set aside your needs just because you're so happy to be reconciling than it is to have the stuff come up 6 months or a year later, I think.

Sorry for the hijack! You did ask though...

This is SO long already I'll go ahead and post it, then get back to YOU and reply to more of your post.

I haven't read the book, but I see it recommended around here A LOT- "Not "just friends"" by Shirley Glass--do you have it? Like I said, I haven't read it, but maybe it would help you to articulate your concerns to you H? Or help him actually "see" the damage that was done?

I totally "get" that it is far easier to set the boundaries initially--the old "Closing the barn door after the horses get out" scenario. Without a "crisis" it would *appear* to the offending party, that you are just overreacting to 'nothing'.

That's odd that the room was never discussed. I know my H would ask me eventually. heh. Or I would just tell him "Do you realize what I was grooming that room for?"

The talking over you/ignoring you thing-- OMG that would make me CRAZY. My H interrupts other people (rarely me) and that makes me nuts. I will often have to go back to what the person was saying so that the story doesn't get derailed with what H just popped up with. If he did that to me I would blow a gasket. I think your approach of cold dinners and no lunch are the best way to show that listening to you is to his benefit.

You know, I sometimes wonder if the other person CAN actually "get" how much hurt they inflicted. It is so much easier for them to rationalize that it was "no big deal" and "nothing happened" so that they can live with themselves. It's almost like the only way they could ever feel the impact is to have it happen to them. Of course, I know if I treated my H as he has treated me, he would write me off in a New York second.

In a way, when my H was listing what he considered to be the postivie results from separating, I felt a bit like he was letting himself off the hook and getting a free pass. I mean, obviously, since we are now "broken up" it's a moot point, but I can bet he will be able to "spin" this whole thing as being for the best-regardless of the outcome.
And isn't what we all end up doing? Trying to say that the destruction of our marriage was "for the best" because our spouse is so flawed they couldn't love us properly? Or that the separation was "for the best" because it made us stronger? I guess that's what we have to do so that we can look forward to the future with hope in our hearts...but sometimes I feel like there is something wrong with the whole broad brush strokes of "for the best." KWIM?