I decided to start a new thread since I haven't been on the board for a couple of weeks. Just no time, and I guess we have been coasting along quite nicely.
My Birthday was last week and H made me a nice celebration meal. I also had presents and cards from H and the kids and breakfast in bed in the morning. So I felt special and pampered it was nice. Anyway during evening when we were enjoying our meal H started talking about wanting us to have a renewal of vows on our wedding anniversary. I smiled at him but I think I said aren't you being a bit previous? He said what do you mean, but I didn't really say anything more. Didn't want to spoil the mood of the evening. I asked H where is wedding ring was because I'd like to put it back on him. He had to confess it was lost. When he dumped OW she took all his suits. His wedding ring was in inside zip pocket of one of his suits where he thought it would be safe. The tears just rose up and fell out of my eyes, I couldn't help it. I just couldn't even say anything for a while. But I composed myself and tried to look to the future instead of the past. I said we should both get new ones and they should represent our new marriage.
Anyway over the next few days I was thinking about why it felt wrong to me to have a renewal of vows. I just don't feel ready yet for that. I think the DBing and piecing has been working but I still feel that most of the work has been from my side that I still haven't had a chance to open up about my issues with him while I have been working on his issues with me. We need to take the next step so we are both working on this together. I know he wants to so how do we take that next step? Should I ask him to read some of the books (e.g. DB/DR) Or what about MC? I guess we do need it especially after this weekend.
The weekend, where to start? it felt like the old M back again. On Saturday H's bro had asked him to drive down to the coast with him in the Lotus Elise (this car is a whole other story which is a big strain on our M). It was some charity London-Brighton run. So he decided to go and suggested I go down separately and meet up with them. We have friends with a house down there so we all agreed to meet up and spend a day at the beach. So that's what we did and we had a good time and had a bbq on the beach. As the afternoon started to turn to evening friends invited us to stay over and spend time on the beach Sunday as well. I was cool with it but not sure if H would be so I said <<I don't know, what do you think?>>. Later this turned out to be me putting him on the spot and making him out as the miserable one that just wants to go home
Anyway we got back to their place. H seemed a little grumpy, said he was tired. Kids wouldn't settle down so I suggested we just keep them up and all go to bed together since we were tired anyway. We all had to share one kingsize bed.
Next morning kids get up usual ungodly hour. So I get up with them. Man of house gets up too and we make breakfast while spouses snooze (these two are both Librans and very alike! LOL)
Eventually woman of house gets up. Starts nagging everyone about nothing (that's just her way, I am used to it). Eventually, evenutally H gets up. He is in foul mood. I am putting it down to bad nights sleep with kids in bed with us but not sure. By this time kids are fractious and want to head for beach. S(4) says he wants to go home. As friends are both out of earshot I say to H - Do you want to go home? Thinking this is a good opportunity for him to say yes as he quite clearly is not up for another fun day on the beach. He just says - whatever. I say whatever is not an answer, tell me what you want to do. He says nothing.
So by this point I just decide to make the best of it. Let him get on with being miserable. If he can't actually voice what it is he wants then how can I do that for him. maybe he will cheer up when he gets out of his sleep fog and we are all chilling out at the beach.
I felt really angry with thim though. Vent a bit to friend. She says she knows she can be a monster without sleep and H is probably the same, just to let him be.
Had an OK day, H handled it OK, bit of a short fuse but not too bad. Hardly said two words to each other on 2 hour drive home.
Felt bad about everything all day monday. H was at work and then went out for evening. Stayed out v. late. I texted an ILY during the day (act as if).
Last night was our salsa night, had a good time and when we got back and had a bite to eat I raised the issue of how the weekend had gone. I just started by saying <<how can we stop what happened at the weekend from happening again, I felt like we were back in the old R>> He said me too. We talked about it, he blamed me. I should not have put him on the spot to be the one who had to decide whether to go or stay. If I realised what a bad mood he was in then why did I not realise what the problem was and suggest we go home. I tried to point out that I had suggested we went home. But he said that would have meant that he left me stuck with the kids. I said, well OK but if you said I am not enjoying being here I want to go home then I could have said one of two things: OK lets all go home OR OK have a good time, we'll stay for a bit. But you would have got what you wanted and I would have been OK too. We talked some more generally about how we communicate. He is still in old style I feel but I was proud of myself for not reverting to my old style too much. Although he accused me of it I could tell it was different and that was just him being in his rut still. Finally I said, I think all our arguments have been about the same thing. You saying LISTEN and me saying BE MORE CLEAR. I started to cry then because a thought occurred to me. I told him it was as if we are always trying to communicate down a crackly trans-continental phone line and the conversation goes: I love you What? I said I love you Can't hear you - shout I AM SHOUTING No you're not I AM you just don't listen etc etc
So anyway, I don't know if we resolved much, a little I think. It was late by this time (1 am) we went upstairs and ML which was good. But I still woke up with a knot in my stomach and feeling things aren't right and not knowing how to make them right.
Yesterday, before this whole discussion I phoned an old friend who I haven't seen since her wedding 15 years ago and we are planning to visit. She said I'm looking forward to meeting your H. I thought afterwards how I don't really feel proud of H. How I don't ever feel like showing him off to people
Sorry bad PMA today
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I think you are showing me my future. I can totally see H and I having the same issues. We got into this mess because he THINKS he told me something but I did not HEAR/LISTEN. He has told me he only wants to say something once. I totally feel for you!!
Overall, I still see more positives than negatives. I think a good book for H to read if he is interested would be HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS OR THE 5 LL.
Keep doing what you are doing. Only your H can decide to be honest and open about his true feelings when he is ready. We will NEVER be mindreaders. nik
Nik, why is it that we don't hear them the first time? Is it because we are not paying attention and why is that? I think I am quite a focused person and I focus on my needs and listen to others as a secondary activity. This keeps me on balance, I don't get knocked off center very easily but it is obviously hard for others to deal with. I do not do it on purpose I just do it. On the whole I feel I am a naturally happy well-grounded balanced person that doesn't get depressed or uptight about stuff easily, but the price I pay for this is being called thick-skinned.
In the discussion we had last night he mentioned that one of the friends we met on the weekend put her point across repeatedly until people started to listen but she didn't lose her cool just kept saying what she wanted to say until someone finally heard her. He said it annoys him when people don't listen to each other. I said, I feel that those of us who don't appear to listen really don't do it on purpose and maybe those who are more sensitive should try to be understanding of our disability (like if I was actually deaf he might bother to learn to sign). So if I don't hear him the first time maybe he can just patiently repeat himself without getting sarcastic. I know how he feels b/c S(4) is just like that completely deaf and you have to repeat yourself 10 times before he responds. I just find it funny and talk louder saying HELLO ANYONE HOME but with humour not rancour. Maybe because I know where S is coming from. He is just in his own space and not letting others bother him.
H is also sensitive to others feelings in a way that I feel is detrimental to him. Maybe over-sensitive is the word. he said he felt like he was doing all the work with the kids at the weekend because our female friend was uptight about kids wrecking stuff in the house and I didn't seem to care about stopping them. My feelings were, she is just being uptight and kids must be kids, however I wasn't letting them wreck the place, far from it, I just felt like there were certain things she needn't get so uptight about - like the fridge magnets for crying out loud. At the end of the day it boiled down to me feeling like I had control of my kids and respect for her but that I had a right to set the boundaries in a reasonable place not just where she wanted them set. H doesn't see it like that and thinks because it's her house we should abide by her boundaries. This is the difference between the two of us. When boundaries are set I set them in a place which is OK for me but takes some account of the other person's feelings. H does not set boundaries he just does what the other person wants and then feels stressed. I know I always feel stressed if I am not able to set my boundaries and end up just being down-trodden by the other person but I have natural in-built boundary setting antenna he just doesn't seem to. My sister and father are both much stronger at setting boundaries and seem to take little if any account of others. Maybe how I perceive them is how H perceives me Don't know what I can do with this part of my personality?
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I once again feel like you were writing my story. H is a people pleaser. He gets stressed and angry instead of being honest and saying/doing what he wants to do. He lies to me inorder for him to do whatever he wants.
I am thick skinned like you. I will repeat myself until someone listens. I feel I am easy to talk to, upbeat and easy going. I am honest which only adds to my PMA. H is such the opposite of me and he too is overly sensitive just like your H.
My H is a first born child. I am the youngest of 4. I think both of our personalities have alot to do with our birth order.
I agree with you. We need to except them for who they are and learn how to communicate better with them but they also need to meet us halfway. I will listen better and I hope H will learn to be more open and honest about his feelings. When everything is said and done I think it is important to agree to disagree. Some issues may never be settled.
One of my sister's and my mom are very controlling/opinionated people like me and I am much more intune now to how at times they drive me crazy, especially when they try to tell me what to do. I have been trying very hard to not do this to my H as I can now understand how detrimental that can be. nik
Me too ...and yes, CJ is more sensitive than I am, and yes I've been accused of "Not Listening" and not remembering stuff he's said.
I'm not thick skinned, though, I'm rather sensitive too. Just kind of in my own world sometimes, I guess, or focussing on something else. (Yes, I'm kind of like a guy in this regard...can't watch TV and listen at the same time )
So my suggestion to you is to really tune in to his signals. That's what CJ and I do...we try to confer in private about whether we're staying somewhere etc. We're usually good at reading each other, and sometimes have to "give" and compromise.
So....how about telling your H that you're sorry you didn't take him aside and ask him what he wanted to do in private. Really, Fran, how hard would that have been?
Assure him that this IS something you can change, and will. It is kind of a courtesy thing, that when CJ and I "bail" from an event, we make it look like a mutual decision...or at times one of us will leave, while the other heads home...no problem.
Now about the kids and the magnets...kind of funny actually. But NOT to your H! I think I'd be more like him in trying to "please the hostess"...just the way I was raised. ..Thus, I imagine I'd feel stress in that situation, I'd pick it up too and have trouble letting it go.
See, I can feel both sides of this! I kind of wish I could be more laid back. Right now I'm empathizing with your H.
BUT...excellent discussion about it...this is NOT your old M, Fran...would it even have been discussed in a solution-oriented manner?
So I guess I'll end with suggesting that perhaps you empathize a bit with the stress these situations bring your H...I KNOW it's stress of his own making!!!...But it is SOOO unpleasant, and there are some concessions you can make to help him with it.
Thanks Nik and Shiny for your thoughful replies, Well actually I am the eldest of 3 and H is the younger of 2 so bang goes that theory. I guess we are all pretty good at setting boundaries in my family except my mum - and even she is finally learning Mind you what I have noticed about my mum and H and others who find it difficult is that when they do it they seem to do it in a very defensive manner. It's almost like some people go around in an inch thick plastic bubble and some people go around in a four foot thick bubble and the sensitive ones have no bubble at all but sometimes they put out these foot long spikes! Ouch.
Shiny I know what you mean about being like a guy and not being able to watch TV and listen at the same time - LOL. I do remember from childhood being able to say - yeah mum - completely on autopilot without missing a beat and not have ANY recall of what she had been saying to me. So maybe I still do it
Quote: So....how about telling your H that you're sorry you didn't take him aside and ask him what he wanted to do in private. Really, Fran, how hard would that have been? The apology or taking him aside? I guess I didn't apologise because I felt I HAD tried. Not in private because it really wasn't possible. The hosts couldn't use their car so we couldn't even confer in the car on the way back from the beach to theirs. I was aware that he wouldn't want me to steam-roller a decision which is why I tried to sound very non-committal and said err I don't know - what do you think we should do Ok I accept now that he felt he was being pushed into being the one to say no, but maybe he could have read better into the situation. Maybe saying something like: Well I'm feeling pretty crummy after that drive and we don't have a change of clothes, but if you'd like to I don't mind Something like that would have at least given me a clue
Assure him that this IS something you can change, and will. It is kind of a courtesy thing, that when CJ and I "bail" from an event, we make it look like a mutual decision...or at times one of us will leave, while the other heads home...no problem. Now that is exactly what I wish H would have done, just headed home if he didn't fancy it. He says he couldn't do that because it would have left me stuck with the kids but why didn't he just ask me? I would really not have minded.
Quote: So I guess I'll end with suggesting that perhaps you empathize a bit with the stress these situations bring your H...I KNOW it's stress of his own making!!!...But it is SOOO unpleasant, and there are some concessions you can make to help him with it.
I will try to empathize more with his stress Shiny. I don't know I feel I already do quite a bit and the other thing is he thinks he's being a people pleaser but he's not because his bad mood when he is putting up with stuff is just as upsetting to people as if he just said no thanks and left. That is what me feel sooo angry about the whole episode. I guess he really doesn't know how bad he can make people feel while he's trying not to make them feel bad. Very passive agressive. I guess he thinks he's just passive.
The thing that rankles most is that he is making ME responsible for his happiness. I was the one that should have mind-read and realised and made it easy for him. I tried, I really tried. When I asked him in the morning (in private) if he just wanted to go home he still just said - whatever. He still needed me to say I completely understand what's going on in your head, I empathise and I am going to give you what you need. I need him to take ownership of his own moods. Why can't he just have said - yes I do - instead of whatever. That answer just made me angry and made me decide to give up trying and do what I wanted.
He said he hates it when I try to coax out of him what's wrong. I tried to point out that I can tell something is wrong but I can't always tell what. I can't understand this not wanting to say what's wrong. Expecting me to just know. I think this is an unrealistic expectation of his. I guess I didn't validate much in our discussion. I did a little, I was more aware of the need to than in the past. But it is something that I feel really strongly about that HE needs to change and I felt I really needed to be able to put my points across to him. When he moved back home he said something about needing to be more assertive and finally realising that he is the one responsible for his own happiness. I can't tell you how pleased I was to hear that from him, so I guess I feel a little disappointed that he hasn't made it over the first hurdle.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Well we solved the how do I bail out of a situation in public question. We have devised a code whereby if one of us would rather leave they say - but remind me to phone my parents. This is the signal and we won't confuse it especially as H barely ever phones his parents, and if I ring mine I don't need H to remind me - LOL
That one is solved I hope! H is also selling his Lotus Elise!!!! I cannot tell you how amazed I am by that, it was in fact an argument over selling this car which he has clung on to without ever driving it or taking care of it for more than 4 years that finally prompted him to walk out in April.
Now his brother has had custody of the car for over a year and taken really good care of it, practically rebuilding it replacing every bolt with non-rust alloy etc, so finally H has decided to sell it to him
I really think this is a great solution because it keeps the car in the family so he can still borrow it from time to time. There is some weird emotional attachment to the car which I can't begin to understand. I think it is some sort of MLC thing. I found it quite difficult to know how to react to the news. I was happy of course but tried not to show it too much and I gave him a hug and sympathised with him about parting with it.
He said you can't have two kids and a sports car. So I just made a joke about selling the kids. The fact is I wanted him to sell it before the kids were even thought of because he hardly ever drove it and it is a hobby car that you can't just ignore, he never tinkered with it at all and it was soooo expensive to maintain.
I wonder if he decided to sell it because he realised that otherwise it would forever remain a bone of contention between us. That's very generous of him if so
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
You guys are really working through your issues! How wonderful. That is what people do in a commited happy marriage. You sound like you are on your way, so don't look back!!
Let me know what you think of my latest update on newcomer's please. Thanks!!! nik
A code phrase, I think we'll borrow that idea! Smoother still!
And GREAT news about the car!!!
Yes your H does need to take ownership of his feelings, and VOICE them. I know CJ's excuse for the past was that he felt he couldn't because of how I'd react . I don't think they should lay it ALL on us!!
Plus now I STILL have to pull stuff out of him and he KNOWS I can handle pretty much anything by now!!!
And yes, the passive aggression thing is a huge PAIN IN THE A$$!!! CJ will deny it to his last breath...I guess he just doesn't get that it's largely unconscious, not deliberate...thus harder for him to recognize as such.
Like you said, your H just sees the "passive" side. But the aggression is there in CJ's case in "not doing stuff" as promised, in your H's case as playing the martyr and poisening everyone else's good spirits.
Now the GREAT thing is... you came up with a simple solution to one aspect of all of this! ...such things can build into a whole set of communication skills that will WORK!!!!
Now perhaps you need a follow up line for "It's fine if you want to go, I'm staying!"
BTW your thread seems to be locked out. Could it be it has got too long - LOL
Quote: Like you said, your H just sees the "passive" side. But the aggression is there in CJ's case in "not doing stuff" as promised, in your H's case as playing the martyr and poisoning everyone else's good spirits.
This is so true, the martyr thing is a big part of his personality and SUCH a pain. I have been trying to do more to highlight when he is being a pain to me - instead of as in the past just ignoring it, skating over it, or trying to be pleasant and cheerful over his bad mood. These have been my strategies since long ago discovering that finding out what's wrong is nigh impossible - until much later when he will throw it in my face and act like I should have known.
Now I just say, stop playing the martyr, or please don't be sarcastic or whatever it is that he is doing.
Quote: Yes your H does need to take ownership of his feelings, and VOICE them. I know CJ's excuse for the past was that he felt he couldn't because of how I'd react. I don't think they should lay it ALL on us!!
Too true! Yesterday H went out with his diving club but got back earlier than expected which was great. My brother was over here and my kids and sister's kid were splashing around in the inflatable pool, while bro was using my computer.
H phoned to say he was coming home sooner than expected. Then sure enough turned up, to welcome home and pleasant greetings from us all. I explained what my B was up to, H was fine. H started eating biscuits so I told him there was cold roast chicken in the fridge if he was hungry. He said - yeah starving, I'll make myself a sandwich.
H then sets about laying out all his dive gear on the lawn and getting S(4) to help him hose it down. Next he disappears - I guess to shower etc.
Meanwhile B asks for my help (he is totally clueless on computer). I say hang on and call up to H to ask him if he's in the shower. He is, so I ask B to wait b/c kids are still in pool and I need to watch them. B is fine with this.
About 20 minutes later I ask B to watch kids while I go up to check on H. I can see through hole in bathroom door (LOL) that he is getting dried, so I say: Hon when you're ready would you mind watching the kids a little so I can help my brother. He says OK.
B and I are quickly finished, so we go back outside etc. But I can tell there is a little minor tension going on with H. He has that weary put-upon look on his face. Anyhow I make something for kids to eat and then B and nephew leave.
H finally starts making himself sandwich while I bath kids and do bedtime routine. He eats some of it, then tells me he is saving the rest so we can sit down and have something together.
That's what we do, then start getting flirty . Asks me to go up and put on underwear he bought for my birthday while he tidies downstairs. I mention that S(4) is in our bed and start talking a little about the fuss he was making about settling down. H suddenly says, I hate the way the conversation always comes back to the kids, I hate never getting any sex. Where did that come from? We had sex on Tuesday, this is Sunday how is that never? Since he came back home we have been getting it together a couple times a week at least. I try not to get defensive about it and go upstairs feeling miffed. I pick up DR and page falls open on Act As If. I think about it hard, try and remember flirty feelings before he sparked off. Then I change and lie on bed seductively.
Anyway you can guess next bit
Afterwards I ask H, how often he needs sex to feel OK. He says everyday. That is a big lie - I'm sorry it is. Before kids when I would have been MORE than happy to get it on with him everyday I was lucky to get 2 or 3 times a MONTH. In between Tuesday and Sunday I had my period, he knew this because he wanted to know why I had knickers on in bed. Anyway I just played along and said: everyday huh? is that once everyday or twice everyday. He said, oooh twice. We both knew we were kidding by this point.
I asked him why he had seemed a bit tense about minding kids. He said it was because he was starving and just wanted to get on and make his sandwich. He said that I just ordered him downstairs without saying please I discussed with him that I thought I had been asking politely by saying when you are ready, but that if to him hearing the word please rather than any other polite turn of phrase is what works then I will try and remember to use it in future.
Everything STILL seems to be all my fault. He came in the house starving, so why didn't he get straight on with making sandwich? Why did he mess around with dive gear, shower etc first. Why did he not say when I asked him to watch kids that he'd like to make his sandwich first? It is so much about VOICING what he wants.
Anyhow this morning I got up and found kitchen complete mess he had not tidied, or even put cold chicken back in fridge - GRRRRR. So he was obviously still miffed after his little outburst and thought he had blown it for sex
This NEEDS work. Where do we start?
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I can totally see H and I having the same issues. We got into this mess because he THINKS he told me something but I did not HEAR/LISTEN. He has told me he only wants to say something once. I totally feel for you!!
...and yes, CJ is more sensitive than I am, and yes I've been accused of "Not Listening" and not remembering stuff he's said. 
