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{{{Ka}}} I am sorry you had a rough night as well, thank you for taking the time to post about mine, considering yours wasn't so great! I hope you got some clearheaded time to work on your budget!

Hugs and peace and let us know how the talk goes

Tawnya

Did not think you were yelling at her but I know what the tone of your voice must have sounded like. Its the one we all get when we are frustrated and not handling the current sitch very well. No matter what you say it sounds like you are blaming the person you are talking to even though I understand that you were not. The person, especially if it is your W, will feel that you are.

I was just saying that when this happens again, and with young kids it will happen again, you need to find a way to interact with your W that does not come off as blaming her. You are allowed to get frustrated and not have every situation undercontrol like the other night your only human and kids will be kids. Remember you can be frustrated and still be in control of your anger at the same time. That is what you need to project. Give yourself a time out, let the kids scream for a couple of minutes while you regroup then get back at it.




Don't you just wish you could turn your brain off and stop thinking about something you have no control over. Someone here called it mental masterbation.

Came home, ate dinner, w joined me at table when I was done. She talked about her job, doesn't know schedule & how it will impact her watching kids. Repeated that if I need help I can ask her. Thanked her & said I would do my best to plan things so that if I needed help it would on a day she didn't have to work.

She asked if there was anything I wanted to talk about. Said I only had 1 question for her. Prefaced it with I appreciate all the help she has given in cleaning the house & didn't want to stop her in any way from helping, but why are you helping? W says her kids live there & she wants to keep things clean for them. Says she shouldn't have to defend herself for wanting what is best for her kids. I said I understood what she was saying. I am not asking you to defend yourself, just I want to understand. Asked my why would I ask her this question. I said that to me I was trying to understand why if you have left the house you feel the need to come back & clean it. Now I understand. This was a 10 min conversation so this is the readers digest version :-)

W asked if I had any other questions for her - No. I asked her if she had anything she wanted to ask me - No. I asked if there was anything she wanted to talk about - No. Thanked her for her time, got up & left table - went into my bedroom to process what happened & relax.

Hear wife come down hallway & the real talk starts. Was focused on listening but hard to recall all that was said. Following is scattered bits of conversation.

Told wife I now am very aware of how my behavior had impacted her. That I was a prick & selfish when it came to being a father. I didn't have a clue what it took to be a good dad. Didn't know how to help with kids.

W reiterated her desire to go to counseling with me. Asked me to get business card of my therapist partner since she lost the one I gave her. I feel she is implying she wants to do her own therapy.

W said that she believed in God. That she changed her opinions to conform to what I espoused & started actually seeing things my way instead of being her own person. Told her I knew what she was saying & that I was very hard to deal with since I felt I always had to be right, knew everything & could not admit I was wrong - defend my position to the end.

W acknowledged changes with how I am with kids - says it is great for them.

W said that now that i am "SuperDad" kids think bad of her since she isn't around to do all the things Dad does with them & spend money to take them to all the places I have. Told her that money didn't matter - kids just want my time whether it is playing cards with them, pigpile on dad or getting to travel somewhere. Stated that she has always been invited to come along to our events.

Long talk about me telling things to kids. I acknowledged that I made mistakes telling some things to him but that I had a very hard time dealing with my emotions - heart broken, w leaving me for another man. Cried a lot & kids wanted to know why. I have been able to move past all that pain but realize that some things I said - mom doesn't love me, mom doesn't want to live her - have had an impact on S4.

W said she wants to get court to order co-parenting classes so that I can learn how to discuss the situation with kids better than I have.

W said she wanted to talk about how she felt now but wanted to save that for another night. Just said ok. No clue what she meant by this.

At end w said she was glad I said I was sorry. Told her that I didn't have any problem talking about things. Said I felt we were getting along better & hope that talk doesn't set us backwards. She said she didn't think it would. She left with kids, got a hug on way out.

30 mins later get a brief email - Thanks for talking. Replied thanks for talking & listening.

Upon reflection, not much has changed. W still very bitter about my past treatment of her, past mistakes I had made, what a poor father I was, etc. W still wants to cut me off when I am talking - dealing with that by stating that if she will not let me finish my point we can just talk another time. W still feels that I cannot understand what she had to endure.

Positives - she acknowledged my improved relationship with kids, said she knows I am doing best I can with them

Baby steps - bit of progress but good reality check as well. Just need to keep focus on me & kids.

One thing keeps going through my head from the conversation that I forgot to mention above. W does not believe that she can ever feel for me the way she did in the past. Doesn't believe that intimacy can be restored. I didn't validate this because I don't believe it is true. Told her love is a choice.

W sent txt msg saying kids were asleep & thanks again for talking.

Spent night replaying things in my head. Trying to see things from w point of view. She has 9 yrs of dealing with a selfish husband that brought tremendous pain to her. She doesn't believe that she could ever feel love for me again, ever restore intimacy. To try again would be risking being hurt even more after she has already decided she is done.

I realize it would be hard for her to want to try again. I cannot change her mind, make her see things the way I do - that things will never work if you don't at least try. All I can do is keep becoming a better man, making my changes permanent, and show her who I am now. Up to her to decide to take a chance again. Just have to give her time & be patient, look for baby steps & opportunities to show change.

It took you 9 years to see what an a** you have been its going to take her time to belive the changes in you are for real. She will talk to you in negatives for quite a while. She has detached emotionally from you to stop the pain and lonelyness she has felt for many years. Its typical WAW spew, accept it for now. Its how she is feeling now and your are correct the only thing you are in control of is your actions and words.

Chose them wisely and let the M/R go for now. Time will tell if she regains those feeling for you. Consistancy in your words and actions from here on out is essential. If you backslide or say one thing but do another that will hinder your progress. Anger is you worst enemy. Do not let it control you and take over your actions. You know your triggers and so does she and she will watch when something happens that would normally upset you and see how you react.

Last thing, if she belives in god and is a religous person how does she explain breaking her marriage vows and sleeping with the OM. The two contradict each other IMHO.

Take care, lots of work for you to do.

Tim

{{{Kak}}} I think Distressed is right that they have detached and we can't control how long it takes them to see our changes and that YOU can only control you..you sound like you are in a good place and the fact that you KNOW and concede to the things you did are such positives and even your wife acknowledges that

I hope you are having a good weekend!

Tawnya

After the talk above I was going to avoid w for a couple days, just withdraw & see what happened. Then I realized that was just same old behavior - way I would react in past when I felt rejected. So I decided to do a 180 & just be the new me. Felt good to figure that out in my head - just showing myself how much more aware I am in how I react to things. More kudos for personal growth.

Not much to report from Thursday through Saturday. W called at work both days, went to USC game with SIL & BIL Saturday while I took kids to ride Thomas the Train. Had a great time myself. 10 mins after game ends w calls house to see how day went. 10 min talk. W ended up going to game with her cousin as well - I knew there was a 4th ticket but never asked who she was with. Similar to her saying she was going to spend Sat with SIL - never asked doing what - w just felt like filling in blanks since I am indifferent towards asking about any details about what she is doing. Yet she wants to know my details :-)

Sunday - Have friend in Sac who brought her d & d friend to Legoland for weekend. I made plans to get together & bring D9. Birthday treat for D9 as well as my way of saying thanks to her for all the help she provides in keeping S4 & D2 entertained when I need time alone. Drop S4 & D2 off at w @ 7am & drive to Legoland - 2+ hr drive.

Meet up with friend, kids get along great, park was a lot of fun. 1st call from w @ 4pm - let go to VM. 45 mins later return call - wants to know what plans are for kids. Says she can have them stay at house & sleep in own beds until I get home. I say figured she was going to keep them all night. W says cousins H just got back from hunting trip & doesn't want to put him out with kids sleeping there. Says she will just go to her GM. I offer to let her just sleep over at house. She states she is not going to sleep at house with me coming home. I say oh yeah, what was I thinking. Then get asked if I am coming home - decide to be aloof & say I don't know - might just stay overnight here (Off work Monday & D has no school). Tell w she can decide if she wants to sleep @ GM or house. Get off phone. Kids end up going swimming @ hotel pool. 3rd call from w about issue with kids - right to VM. Call back 1 hr later - sorry for not responding sooner - battery is low on phone so had to turn it off. Deal with issue & good night. Out to dinner with everyone - waiter keeps calling us Mom & Dad. Got a kick out of that as did friend. After dinner kids watch movie while we talk by pool about what else - situation. Friend offers good insight & impressed how well I am dealing with things. Say goodbyes & drive home. W sleeping in our bed! I had said that was fine before. Resisted temptation to join her & took couch.

W cooks breakfast this morning. Keep having small talks about her feelings, R, etc. Asks if ok to bring pics over of her & kids to put up in their bedrooms. Say I have no problem with that - already have pics up of you & them in there already. She states that she has seen that I removed all pics of her & I from house & doesn't feel that she should be taken out of kids rooms. I tell her I agree 100% so that is why there are pics of her still in kids bedrooms. She says something along lines that kids should have pics of other parent. I ask her if she has pics of me + kids at cousin's house or GM where kids sleep when they are with her. Says that when she gets her own apt then she will do that.

Small breaks between talks - deal with kids, cooking, etc. I decide to knock off 1 task from my to do list which is to scan all the pics that I do not have a copy of & then I can give her the box of them. Start scanning, w comes in room & says that this is not how she thought her life should have turned out. That she wanted to be married, family , friends & is just not happy. D9 mom arrives to pick her up which was terrible timing since went back to ask w to explain what she meant & she just closed up on subject.

1 hr later just asked W if we could talk. She sits down & I just ask her flat out - what needs to happen for you to consider working on our M. Have a good 1.5 hr discussion on lots of topics. Much of it is rehash from previous talks. I did a lot of looking her in eye, listening, validating & empathizing with her. Defended myself a couple times but not to where I stomped on her feeling to do so. All in all very positive talk - I teared up a couple times, w did as well. No touching or hugging involved.

Really wish I could record these conversations because when you are in them it is hard to recall all that you talk about!

W says that we were never friends & just slept with me, then attached herself to me & moved in. I just smiled at that. Said that I understood her point of being friends with someone before you start dating but that most R start way our did. Problem with us is that the friendship we had deteriorated over time because we our issues became barriers.

Talked about what she thought I meant when I said I want to work on our M. She says that she isn't going to just move back home, back into life we had, having sex, etc. I told her I felt same exact way. Things would have to be taken slowly & that it may turn out that I don't want the M.

Talked about sex - that she thinks now she withheld sex as a way to punish me for treating her like an object, for making her feel like a piece of meat rather than a woman. Went into her talk about how woman need the emotional connection in order to want to have sex whereas man just needs T & A. More validation, said that book I am currently reading she could have written since it says same exact thing (His Needs, Her Needs).

Talked about her cheating - w feels that she has done some things that she doesn't think I will ever be able to move past, that I will hold over her & end up making her pay for them. SHe knows I am disappointed over it. Told her I know that is how most people would feel about having someone cheat on them. But I understand why she did what she did - I failed to meet any of her emotional needs & she eventually had enough. Said that many people has asked me how/why I would consider ever taking her back. She said that was a good question. Told her my standard reply is this: W had to endure my behavior for 9 yrs, I'd be a fool not to forgive her for making a 3 month mistake. If this is what it took to improve the R & M then it will be worth it in the end. Said regardless if M is saved or not, I am a much better person because all this happened so I do not have any hate or anger toward her nor do I feel she will owe me for the rest of her life for doing what she did. W says that if she wanted to cheat she would have done so years ago, that trust would not be a problem. I just left that alone. Neither of us mentioned OM. Didn't bother to ask if he was still in picture - save that if she decides she wants to work on M.

Talked about she doesn't want to come back just for kids. She could do that right now but doesn't feel that is the reason to come back. I told her I agreed with her. She needs to want to come back for her own reasons. Said for me, kids are a reason to want to work on M, but those are my feelings, not hers. She says that she doesn't think guilt is reason to come back & right now that is all she is feeling.

W does not want M at this point. Wants to work on being friends & then see what happens. Says she could change her mind in couple months but that would only be possible if friends first.

Both thanked each other for talk. She said that she hoped I wasn't mad that she didn't want to come back. I told her that I was fine, I had no expectations anymore that things will work out between us. I know that I am going to be fine regardless if M ends or not. I am happy with my life now & feel good about myself.

W decided to take kids out shopping for few hours. Asked if it was Ok to give a friend a hug. Got nice smile from w & good 3 sec hug.

So, again nothing has changed, no expectations. W still behind her wall but very happy she came out to talk for a while. This is a BRIEF post over what was discussed so sorry if details are sketchy. Just feeling positive about whole talk - huge improvement from last R talk prior to her leaving for AK 2nd time! Anger level in w has really dropped - she is still emphatic about her points but not to the degree she was 4 mos ago. Patience, time & keep working on me. Baby steps :-)

W called while out shopping - Kohl's having big 2 day sale, kids driving her nuts while at store. Asked me what kids needed - pjs. Asked w if she wanted to go there tomorrow - just us. She thought that was a good idea & would have her grandma watch kids.

Today, w comes by house @ 10:30 - drop kids off & go to store. Chit chat a bit while shopping. Ask w opinion on picture frame I decided to buy for house. I pay for items & ask if she wants to grab some lunch. Suggest we go to Panera Bread. Driving out Kohl's parking lot we pass by McDonalds. I say or we can just go to McDeath. W says that is all she can afford these days. I say guess that is where we are headed since she is buying lunch. Get a chuckle out of her & head to Panera. (Excellent place if there is one around your area!)

Sit & have nice 1 hr lunch - more talking - Some highlights

Tell w I scanned the pictures. In with a box of the pics were ticket stubs to concerts, plays, etc that we had attended - all took place from 99-03. Once S4 was born, no more ticket stubs. Found that really hit home about how we didn't make time for us once kids came along. W says she tells people to just have dogs - kids take away your freedom - unless you have a live-in relative who can watch kids while you are able to keep your social life. I tell her I can see her point but that I believe you need to make time for you & your spouse in order to keep a balance between family & marriage - something I plan on doing.

Ask w that if she believes in God why did she give me grief when I said I wanted to start bring kids to church? W says she has her own issues with Catholics but not Christians. She states her beliefs & opinions. Says well that is what I believe. I tell her she doesn't need to defend her feelings, believes or opinions anymore to me. I have learned to just listen & accept what I hear.

W brings up her nephew 10 who was printing pics of naked women on cousin's printer but forgot to take them off printer. Share with w that I had little conversation with D9 on way to Legoland along similar lines - boys, etc. W says that kids are having sex at younger ages today than she did. Says that it was 8th grade for her 1st time. Ding! OM was her 1st ever. I just say 8th grade, that explains a lot. W rolls her eyes but doesn't get offended by comment.

W starts discussing how she was poorly supervised by her mom as a child. Her mom would "smoke out" with her friends but w wasn't allowed to participate with her. Says her mom was never given any instructions on how to raise kids. Says mom had issues when she was a child with anxiety & needed shots to calm her down. W says her mom acted in many ways like her own father & is similar in many ways to my own father; her mom modeled much of her parenting after what she saw growing up. I say I understand that since that is what I have become aware of myself in my own upbringing. W says she sees that but says in her case she hasn't turned out like her mother since she knew what right & wrong were. Says that I never hit my kids but still acted in ways that my father does. I said that I did choose to act that way but that is because I was not aware I had a choice - always just felt this is who I am & if you don't like it, that is your problem - not mine. But I never really liked who I was - I just didn't know I had a choice & could change. W says that she always felt I was a hypocrite since I am a huge proponent of will power - I always said people can do whatever they want if the have a strong will - be addiction, change, etc. So if that is the case, why couldn't I just change? Told her it is all about awareness - just was not aware of the impact my behavior had on others. Always wondered why people avoided me, never called, never invited us anywhere...well duh, who wanted to be around me if they figured I would just find some way to put them down, insult their believes or just piss them off.

W brings up my driving. Says that the way I drive, I mean the way you used to drive, it was not normal. Cutting people off, teaching someone a lesson, flipping & cussing at other drivers - Do you see that now? Told w yes I do. Said I feel that was just one of the ways the anger I had bottled up inside me was vented out. Said that I had started to change my driving habits once gas hit $4 a gallon. Just started to put cruise on 75 & watched all the idiots drive by, knowing I used to be one of those idiots myself. Interesting thing about this is how w corrected herself - must see the change in my driving but hadn't mentioned it until now.

Leave lunch & go to supermarket to buy milk, OJ. W cuts me off in conversation for 3rd time & I get frustrated. I clam up, take a couple breaths & just ask her to please not interrupt me when I am trying to talk. Said that I allow her to finish what she is saying, listen to her & then say what I need to. W says this is just how I talk. I say that I would like to be able to discuss things but want to be sure that I am given the same courtesy that I am giving you. This is just one of those things that she needs to work on - I know.

Tell w as leaving store that I really want to understand her, that I want her to feel free to express her opinions without feeling she will have to defend what she believes. W says she can see that I am listening more now.

Pick up kids, head home. Show kids new pjs - they are excited. Bathroom break for kids & then pack them into my car to head to Veteran's Day parade. Had invited w to come along while shopping but she told kids next time we do something she will come along. Get a hug bye & a wave while she drove away.

Things progressing in a positive manner. Was really nice to just get out & do something with just w & I. Good conversation.
Have to see what tomorrow brings.

W calls this morning to see if it is ok to keep kids at house today. Tell her not a problem - ask if she is feeling sick. Says no, just cousin has a lot of cleaning to do & wants to keep kids out of her way.

W shows up 20 mins later - I made coffee & had poured her a cup. W asks if there is anything I need her to clean today - told her no just to check spa to see if it needed chemicals. Says she wants to clean back deck since it is dirty. Ok with me :-)

Small talk, shares how she needs to finish the 4th book of the Twilight series since her cousin is on 3rd book. Says she reads her book while cousin reads hers & says Wow, can't believe that happened, etc just to tease her cousin.

Sharing funny small things like this just shows how relaxed conversation is becoming for her & us.