Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums We're separated--What Now? Please help me to not give up............

In this case subtle might be better, if your W is "threatened", though I think it is imperative that you need to improve your R with your Boys. Whatever that means (spending more time with them when you are home, talking to them more, maybe eventually working up to being home more often). Basically, make it clear that changes are taking place, for the better. Youare the best judge of your day-to-day life, I am just throwing out ideas.

If your W was like mine, then you probably heard "resentment kills love, and once it is dead that is all there is too it". One thing to keep in mind from a WAW's perspective, they have already mourned this loss...they have come to terms with and figured they have done what they could do....they have checked out. So in many respects she is not emotionally disconnected, you are playing catch up to where she is at. Only your actions will turn things around

Just a quick update. Not a great deal to report, apart from the 1st session with C yesterday. It was an initial consultation, so really all that happened was that I spoke about my situation at great length, and the problems and issues that I believe I have which have lead me here. It was quite cathartic to be able to just talk about how I felt, without fearing that I was burdening somebody. I don't really have many people that I feel I can talk to about this, and those that there are, I really don't want to keep banging on about it.

However, I really must have needed to talk, because when I started, I didn't stop talking for about 40 minutes. She did say that she would need to see me at least one more time before we both commit to ongoing therapy/counselling.
I am hopeful that I'll get something out of this, even if it doesn't help with my M, I know that it will help me to deal with things and some of the issues that I have.
One thing that she did point out, was my perceived lack of self esteem, and noted that was something that I needed to work on. That of course is in line with all the good advice that I have received here.

Had a slightly more positive day yesterday. Forced myself to go out and have a drink and a meal in a local pub, and then met up with some friends to go to the movies.

W had called and left a message to ask how ny C session went. I was a bit surprised by that, although I know that she is a good person and still cares about me. I didn't expect it though, and I try not to read anything into it other than that.

She has since texted me to ask when I'll be home next, and that she will not move out for my visit. I think this is good, and I really must use it as an opportunity to implement more DBing and to see my boys.
Also, seems like her sister is now splitting with her partner. What the hell is going on? There are some huge things happening in the cosmos right now.

I am starting to see your point TD, about her having checked out a long time ago and that I really am playing catch up. That helps to understand her remoteness and the icy cold way she is with me sometimes. There are times though, when I still see little glimpses of the person that I love. This must be so so difficult for her too, and I know I must help myself and her, by being a strong man and by not succumbing to negativity and stress.

I wish I could do more, and I really hope that time will indeed prove to be a friend.

Hi grant, I'm Sandi and was an AWAW. You asked me to drop by your thread and look at your stitch. I had tried to take a few days off from the board b/c I was spending too much time here every night. Even though I want to help others, it doesn't help my stitch to not spend enough time with my H and other family members. But, it sure is hard to feel like you leave people "hanging".

I don't know if you have read my thread, but I have been M for many years....over 42 years now. So, yeah, you are talking to an old woman.(lol) Not really, I was just a babe when I married. Anway, we had problems from the beginning and most of it was about sex. No matter what I thought the issue was that we needed to talk about, he always brought it back to not enough sex. Well, I begin to resent it more and more as the years went by. I did everything that all the popular M books told me to do to keep my M "alive" and to have fun in the M and to please me H.....so and so forth. But, no matter what I did, it never seem to be enough or else it would backfire in my face.

When our first grandchild was born, he lived with us for a while and that was when my H first started to sleep with the grandson instead of in the bed with me. B/c that was what the GS wanted. They would watch TV until they fell asleep. Then it got to where if/when my H came to bed, he had developed the snoring problem by then....and it would keep me awake. So, he used that as an excuse not to sleep with me. I always wanted to have the intimacy and especially the words of affirmation (which was my LL) but my H did not talk! So, I got neither the words nor sleeping together. So, for about 20 years, no bed partner for me! I can tell you that a couple can grow apart like this b/c the only time he came into the bedroom was to have sex and it made me feel like a prostitute. I resented him more and more. I prayed for years and years for God to give me the "desire" that a wife should have for her H. So, finally God answered my prayers. I just knew everything would be wonderful. (Realize that I am leaving out so much history here b/c it's too long.) Well, it was nice for about ......almost three months and then, my H suddenly, without a word of explanation, just stopped ML to me. That was that! No more sex in 12 years! Whenever I would try to talk to him about it......I got a flimsy excuse that made no sense to me at all. So, I thought he could not perform any longer due to a heart surgery he had had and the medication he was taking for other problems. I didn't press it matter, but thoght how ironic the entire thing was that he complained about me being frigid all those years and then he can't perform! I almost wanted to reverse the treatment on him that he had given me. I did get in a few snide remarks to let him know how it felt, but that just wasn't going to do, so I didn't say anything more.

Anyway, after that, I was on anti-depression meds plus a lot of other stuff b/c I have Fibromyalgia. Guess it was all the meds combined or else the AD's but I just felt dead inside. I also felt like I was dying a slow death....physically.

To try to make a long story shorter, certain circumstances happened and I would come to the computer room and play on-line games to get away from my painful reality. That is when I learned that you could "flirt" with OP on line and it was like......okay, b/c they didn't know you and you didn't know them. It was fun, felt a little naughty, but I got a "thrill" out of it. Do you have any idea how long it had been since I had felt "anything"? Much less a "thrill"! I had always been to "proper" to be naughty or to feel a thrill!

So, after a while, I went farther into things and I found an adult site--and the rest is history. My H found out....due to my stupidy and thinking he did not know anything about computers and couldn't trace what I had been doing. He confronted me and demanded that I delete everyone from my IM list. He laid a very heavy guilt trip on me and made me feel lower than dirt. So, like a good little girl obeying her daddy, I went and did what he said. And then I cried all night long b/c I did know what I had to look forward to anymore. Then a couple of nights later when on the computer.....one of the men that I had deleted, somehow was able to reach me. I suppose he saw when I came on line.....I don't know....but I grabbed hold of him and didn't let go. So, then we begin to get better aquainted and it was leading to some very sexual language. Guess what? My H discovered that too. He spied on me, snooped through my things, tried to lay traps for me (I felt like anyway) and would come and stand behind me while I was on the computer. It would make me furious. I almost felt hatred for him! So finally, it all hit the fan and he said he would never give me a divorce. He was screaming at me and I saw a side of him I had never seen before and I hated it. I left to go to my mother's and he called her before I got there to tell her to make sure I told her "all of the story"! Can you imagine how I felt when she told me that? Do you think he won any brownie points with me? Do you have any idea how I felt telling my elderly mother about me having an EA with another man on-line? I had been the "good" daughter! I will never forget the shock and hurt in her face when I told her. Did I ever consider all of that while I was in the mist of my "thing" with OM on-line? Of course not. You are insane at the time......one doesn't think of rational things.

Then, as I was crying, she told me that I would always be her baby (at 59....lol) and that she knew how things had been between my H and I and she did not approve of what I had done, but she understood how I was reaching out to somebody to fulfill the emotional needs that my H had never done since the first day we were married. My mother and I had always been close, so I had talked to her many times over the years about my stitich.

Well, I went back home that very night, but it wasn't b/c I wanted to. I really debated about whether to stay or leave. I was miserable. Talk about being in limbo! He did not make things easier b/c he was so angry and bitter and acted so "self-righteous" and even told me that he had never done anything wrong! I had cheated. I had had an affair. I never had a PA.....never even met the man in person, but as far as my H was concerned, I had committed adultry.

I have already taken up too much time tonight, so I will tell you more later. But, I remember how terrible and miserable I felt day in and day out. I would get up with the intentions of making my M work and by noon be having doubts and by the end of the work day....would be trying to figure how I could support myself if I moved out. I never left, but I can tell you it has not been easy. I stayed....not b/c I wanted to, but b/c I had to. There were other circumstances that influenced my decision, but to say that it was out of love for my H would not be the truth. Mainly b/c I didn't even know if I did love him or if I had ever loved him. Sound familiar? That is how a WAW starts to think and that is why she starts to rewrite her history with her H. She doubts the feelings that she ever had for him. The thought of starting over in a brand new R with OM seemed a lot easier than to remain in this awful old R with this H that I didn't even know if I loved anymore. That is where you will find most WAW's.....right there.....in tha state of limbo. It is horrible and I never want to experience it again. I saw the OM as my knight in shinning armour. That is how a lot of WAW's see their OM. They are in a "fog" and it takes longer than any three months, or whatever some people will tell you, to get over it.....if you truly were in emotionally deep with that person.

Well, I will talk to you more later.....and try to get into your stitch, but wanted to tell you a little about mine.

Take care,
Sandi

Hey Sandi2,

I'm most grateful to you for taking the time to post on my thread, and for sharing your R and M history.
It really does sound like you've been through the mill, and I can absolutely understand how you reacted and your search for a place to find some attention and love in your life.
I don't think that you could be in any way blamed for looking for escape in an online experience, particularly in light of your H's behaviour toward you. I don't really blame my W either for entering into an affair with her ex, although it hurts more than I can describe. Sometimes I wish that it was just an online thing, and not someone who lives a mile away and is so involved with my children.

I think there are really 3 parts to my personal sitch, and all seem to be interconnected.

1. I have worked away from home for 10 years in an industry that is uncertain and insecure with all it's associated money worries, although my W has always made it clear that money or material things were not important to her.

2. I have not always given her the support that she has desired, not met her emotional needs, and have not been the father that I should have been.

3. I have had issues with sex and pornography which have lead her to withdraw further from me, and lead me to an online affair which was overtly sexual in nature.

I should say that I have never stopped desiring or being in love with her, as I have always found her incredibly attractive and beautiful. I have always loved her for the person she is, and I think she is very special. I know this doesn't make much sense if I engaged in that pursuit of "digital adultery".

I have never been physically unfaithful to her, and my escalated viewing of pornography and the online affair were as a result of our lack of a sexual relationship. There is an old addage about men needing to have sex to feel loved, and women needing to feel loved to have sex. It's the old chicken and egg thing again.

I know now as a result of therapy, study, and participation in a 12 step programme in SAA, that I do have problems with intimacy, though I am still learning about what that really means, and where I have got it so wrong in the past.
Both my W and I dislike confrontation, and I know also that has played a part in our inability to really discuss and get to the bottom of the problems in our R.

It seems strange talking about all this, because I can still remember our happy times when we felt really connected. I really believed that we'd be together for life. I think she did also. But the circumstances have conspired to pull us further apart, and I take a huge chunk of the responsibilty for that. I know it's not helpful to blame myself entirely for all this, and I can see that she has also had a part to play.
But she has been so selfless, undemanding and understanding in our M for so many years, I think now she has ( like you did ), got to the point where she is just reviewed everything about her life........... where she's been, where she's going etc. and I think with also this OP back in her life again, it has been a source of attention and validation for her, and it has in some way, helped to meet the emotional needs that I have failed to provide for her.

It's complex and multi-layered as you well know.

It would be wonderful if you could at some time take a read of my thread, as it ma give you further insight.

Just yesterday, we had a really lovely conversation on the phone, and it almost felt "normal" and like the person I know and love. I think this is because we are both really trying to make strenuous efforts toward re-establishing a friendship, for both our children and for ourselves. I am hoping that is something that will continue to improve, and I know I must work tirelessly and selflessly to carry on that path. It's the only way forward. That, and a real commitment from me, to deal with my issues, and to make life changes across the board.

I'm so grateful to you for taking the time to post, as I know it is time consuming, and does take you away from living your life. Many thanks. G

Hi grant, how are you making it today? I know it seems awful at times, but like one man said....he did not want to wait...he wanted it to happen right now! Well, that isn't the way it works. I think most women have more patient than men....maybe we had to since we were the ones to have the babies, etc. At any rate, that is one trait that must be learned is patient. Men do not seem to realize how long most women kept their pain and unhappiness locked up and then when they could not take it anymore, they had to get away from all of it......the man just falls apart and expects the woman to change back over-night simply b/c he has made a few 180's.....well, sorry charlie, but that just doesn't happen. I am glad that you have seen that it will take a slow and consistant process of being determined to be the better man and outshine the OM. I think in your case, that is exactly what you need to do.

The thing that you have going for you is that you still are in love with your wife and want to fight to save your M. That is a wonderful and great gift! It is when you don't feel anything at all, and yet b/c of your religious beliefs, or whatever, that you need to stay in the M, it is so horrible. That is very, very hard to do. When I read about how you could look at your wife and see how beautiful she was and you still desired her.....I thought how much I wished I could do the same thing toward my H. It would be so much easier if I had the "want to" and the desire to fight to have a great MR. But, when you feel dead inside, it is difficult--to say the least.

I have not given up.....I don't want you to think that. But, I'm just talking about our stitch and our feelings, etc. When I made the choice to stay in my M b/c I knew that was the "right" thing to do and that I could not support myself.....and that the OM had never said he would marry me......oh......BTW, he did say he would come get me.....and he did say he would take care of me.....but you know, at my age you have to think about things like insurance and what happens when I have to drop mine and if he didn't marry me then what would happen when he got tired of me or if things didn't work out all rosey like? I promise, when you get older and start to have a "fling", it is different than when you are young and can just walk out and not have to think about these things. I could have messed myself up very badly where health, doctors, insuranace, etc. was concerned. That will kind of knock the romance right out of things, but it is a fact of life and a woman needs to think about these matters. It's not like I can go get a job just anywhere or that the insurance co. would carry me. Oh the OM talked a very good talk......I mean, he had me convinced that he meant every word he said, but now that I have had time to think about it with my head out of the fog......I think he would have said anything to get in my panties. But the "m" word never came out of his mouth, which I couldn't really blame him until we had been together, we didn't know how we really would be toward each other, so it just makes sense to wait until you meet in person. But still, I would have been stepping out on very blind faith to have left my home, family, job, benefits, etc. to go to a man that could have thrown me out of his house in a couple of days and told me I was on my own. Still and all, I grieved for him when I broke it off. As I've said, it was the fantasy that I was really grieving for. It gave me new life and took a lot of boredom away for me......but on the other hand.... I will never forget my blood pressure shooting out the top of my head when I would nearly get caught on the computer talking to him. So, one has to ask themselves if it is worth it.

I know a lot of wives have problems with their H's and porn. It is different with men and women. I honestly think most men can look at porn and even MB while watching.....and yet desire their w's very much. But it is an addiction, just like the OM became my addiction, and I think it can consume your life. I don't think it would bother me to talk to my H about it......and I have a little bit lately, and he hasn't denied it. I have suspected it for some time, but when the GS was living with us (who, BTW, is grown now, and not M) I thought it was him doing the "looking". When GS moved and I saw these adult sites still showing up in the "history" on the computer then I confronted H about it. I know he doesn't feel any emotional attachment.....it's just sex to a man. They can separate the sex and emotion and love.....where females don't seem to do that so easily. But, what I do have a problem with is that my H acted so "self-righteous" to me about my behavior when all the time, he was having his own issues. But, I don't think he sees them as a "problem". He is just "looking". What is sad is the fact that when I was younger, I probably would have been very upset and jealous that he was "looking"......but now I don't feel anything other than the fact of his self-righteous attitude he had taken with me (I find that rather ironic!) but, he sees it differently. I really wished he would agree for us to talk to a professional, but he would die before consenting to do that. He would tell you that he doesn't have a problem.....and maybe he doesn't....but it is a temtation that he is giving place to, and that's not good. To think how guilty he made me feel and then to find this out!

Anyway, you are doing the right steps. Yo ure dealing with your issues and trying to get yourself straighten out and you are working at being a friend to your W. You will be suprised at how well that can work in your favor if you don't become a door mat. That is very important! I have to go for now, but I will talk more about your stitch next time....I promise...lol.

Take care,
Sandi

Sandi,

What a wonderful post! Thankyou.

You managed to make me laugh too, something I've been doing far too little of late.

Much of what you say I have come to understand over the past few months. Your description of how you reached the point of feeling "dead" inside and not wanting to continue in your M, is I think, pretty much how my wife feels right now.

I get the patience thing, although I think I've been playing catch up for a while now.
I guess it's natural to wish that my W would someday consider working on our M, but I realise too as you said, that she has obviously lived with these feelings of unfufillment and growing resentment for a long time, and it's absolutely unrealistic for me to expect any speedy process toward mending things.

I love the way you tell it like it is, but rest assured, I'm under no illusions about where she is right now. She has made, and continues to make that abundantly clear.
Part of my problem is that I feel that I am so much to blame for the breakdown on our M, and since our separation, I have never denied my responsibility, possibly too much. Although I did feel that I had to let her know that I accepted her reasons and was willing to work on myself and the issues.

I have tried not to be confrontational about the OM, but accept at times, that I could have handled it better. She had always denied that she was having an affair with this man (though I always new in my heart that she was), until I discovered her cell phone bill with hundreds of texts and calls to him. She then accepted that she was having an EA. I know it's very much "script" for people to deny, lie, and lie some more, right up until the point that it's out in the open. Her sense of guilt must have been difficult to live with, although, as you say, the OP does become a kind of addiction in it's own right.I think for me, even though I knew it was happening, there was still a bit of a release in knowing that I wasn't paranoid or completely mad.
My W says that she has to do this for herself, and can't consider anymore, staying in an unhappy M for our boys, her Mum, or for me. She's done with the selfless part now, and I empathise with how she feels. It must have been so difficult for her to live with this for so long. It's very very strange though, to see her so withdrawn, cold, and bitter because that's so opposite to her character. I accept that is really only directed toward me, although she does seem to have become more fiery, verbal and slightly aggressive. I think she is just showing how strong and independent she has become. I don't think that's a bad thing, and I am genuinely happy for her that she is rediscovering herself and feels "alive" again.

I appreciate how horrendous it must have been to feel "trapped" and unable to escape your situation, and to have to stay only because your financial situation demanded it. I think it's a shame that your H decided not to accept any culpability for the unhappiness in your life. It was probably easier for him to focus the blame toward you and your indiscretion. I can perhaps understand that, but knowing what I do now, it is absolutely not the way to go. Even though I know this, it still hurts like hell that she's involved with him, but I must accept that I cannot control or affect that, other than by being the best man that I can be.

Being separated, it's very very difficult to find opportunities to "outshine" OM, particularly when I know how much they talk to one another. That's the reason that I am trying so hard to work toward friendship with her, to show her that I am strong, and that I can live with things. I do have worries about appearing "doormat" like, esp when my self esteem is so low. But I know she gets so worried and stressed about me coming home sometimes, I think it's vital that we can get to the point where we can be friends again, and not have this constant "see-saw" thing, where one week it's really nice, and then the next, it's more upset. I am dealing with it better though.
It helps now that she's not talking about OM so much, and although I don't get to know how their relationship is progressing anymore, I figure it's better that way as I don't feel quite so emotionally destroyed when we interact. It does help me get through my visits home.

It is very painful to go back home and to see her, and to live with this new reality. Especially as I am still so very much in love with her. I've loved her for 20 years, and it's very difficult to detatch, and imagine the prospect of life without her as my partner after so long.

I do think it's a good thing too that I still love her and I am willing to fight on, although part of me wishes that I really didn't. Nobody said love and M was easy.
Reckon I've had it easy for too long, and I feel sure that she's felt taken for granted.
In truth, I don't think I have taken her for granted, but for sure, I haven't done enough in the past to sustain our love and R.

I appreciate your understanding about looking at porn and still desiring my wife. It's something that many woman, my wife included, do not understand. I think what's important though, is that it doesn't matter what my perceptions were of it. What's important is, that she felt deeply disrespected, not capable of fulfilling my needs sexually, and ultimately, betrayed. I have spent so long denying that I had a problem with sex, as I've always been a sexual person, but I am taking this opportunity to confront the real issues behind my behaviour, and to rewire my thinking about the damage it has done to me and my family.

Actually it matters little whether it's an online thing, a PA, or porn. The sense of betrayal for the spouse is sometimes just as great I think.

At the moment, I'm a little worried about the "doormat" thing, as I realise the importance of earning her respect again, and I'm not always sure how to do that and what lines to draw up. I'm just trying to make the very best of all the interactions that we have now, and to make our time together less strained and easy.

I'd love to hear more about your feelings on what I might or might not be doing re the doormat business.
BTW, I laughed out loud when I read the bit about the OM trying to get into your panties!! Fantastic.

It's truly wonderful that you've taken the time to give me a unique personal insight into the mind of a woman in this situation, even though I am making strenuous efforts to learn about how this is for a W from books, the forum etc.

You might have realised that TwinDad had been helping with my sitch so much, and that he has had to stop posting here. He was really fantastic to me, and it's amazing that I can now interact with you here too.
I can't tell you how grateful I am Sandi.

I really hope that you do find true happiness and contentment in your life, regardless of how it might come about.

Take care,
G.

Hi grant, I had a little time today to try to post so thought I would drop in and see how things are going. I bet that long distant working would be quite a test for a lot of M. Some women just aren't cut out for it and actually do need more attention than they need the materialistic things. However, many jobs do require the man to be gone from home serveral days and it does make if hard on the kids and the R with their dad. It places many H's/dads in a bad place b/c they have to make a living for their families.......so what to do.



I agree with that statement you made back on one of your posts. She probably was lonely and did need the attention and the validation. You know, I vowed that I would not become a certain type of married woman or that I would not allow my H and I to become this certain type of couple and have the type of M's I had seen in others......and yet.....here we are. It is so very difficult for it not to happen. It takes so much work and it is like if you let down for any length of time, there is a great deal of damage done in a short period. But, I think of the word "habit" more than anything else. I believe "habits" fall into place and at first we may not even particularly like the habit, but after a while, we just accept it and then we actually become comfortable with it. Just like with my H not sleeping in the bed with me. Now, I am comfortable with it and would probably be uncomfortable having somebody sleeping in the bed with me. But, I did miss it a lot in the beginning and I did not like it. Soon the intimacy became less and less until there wasn't any. Now, we are like an old pair of slippers. We are comfortable.

In looking at your ages, I also wonder if your W may be having some MLC issues. Now, I thought I was! Really, even though I was considered too old to be having mid-life crises......I had all the signs. My age had never bothered me until I realize I was about to turn 60 and then it was like the bottom feel out. I needed to be flattered, whereas before, I may have appreciated it but I didn't "need" it to build my ego up. However, at that point in time......I needed to be reasurred about my sexuality and looks and just being "female". I think that is why having the attention from other men.....especially a lot younger men than myself, was big ego food for me. It didn't matter that it was probably all lies.....I ate it up never-the-less! And, it began to show up on me, so the ego food worked! Stange as it seems to me now, my H could tell me the same thing, but it did not have the affect the it did coming from complete strangers. Do you know what I mean by that? I think you do.

You said something that I thought was so.....understanding and kind of ...I don't know...sweet. When you said that you did not really blame your wife for her affair with OM. And then you named the reasons you felt that you had failed in the break down of the M. Not many men do that. Mine didn't. He still blames me for my failures in the M, the EA, all of it. I have not heard him change his tune about any of it. I have learned from reading the post from other men here on the board how terribly painful it is for their W's to have an affair, even if it is just an EA. It is the fact that that trust was broken. That is one thing my H and I had in each other.....trust. He trusted me so much....and that is why I got away with what I did for as long as I did. But, he probably will never trust me again.....not like he once did. I have to live with that.

I did read something that I did not see where anyone responded to it. You mentioned that you wanted to try to get your W to read the DR book. I hope you know by now that it is not for her. The DR/DB principles are strickly for you.....not her. They are your tools and your game plan and she doesn't need to see it. Besides, trying to get her to look at any type of marriage improvement stuff is not going to work. I am fully shocked if she goes to a C. But, some WAW's will do that to justify their reasons for leaving such a sorry H that they paint them out to be to the C. In today's world, most C will tell the client to leave their spouse and go find happiness. It is hard finding a pro-marriage C.



I am sure it is very difficult on you, but try to look at it this way.....it gives you more time to "practice" all you self-improved changes for the next time she will see you. You will get so good at your practicing, that it will become second nature to you so that it will not appear to be fake at all. Then she will really believe it.

We need to talk about the "doormat" thing. First, even friendships require boundries lines. Right? Don't you know if you cross the line with one of your friends? I think the first thing she needs to learn is that you will have to draw the line with her talking about the OM to you. You want to be her friend, but not a "girl friend" that she can talk about her love affairs with. So, if she begins to bring up the subject of the OM, just put your hand up in a stop signal, or else softly place your finger over her lips to "hush" her. Then softly, but firmly, tell her that it feels very inappropriate for her to talk about the OM to you and that you feel it is a sign of disrespect and therefore you do not want her to do that any longer. You want to be her friend, but that you have to draw the line at listening to her love affairs with OM. If she tries to argue about this.....just don't do it. Shake your head at her and just say, "No, I'm not going to talk about that any longer. That's my stand on it." Or whatever sounds more like you, but do not argue about it.....period. If she is the type to really get pissed off and starts causing a scene....leave. Never stay around her when she starts a battle. I would have been the type to have big fight scenes with my H but he was the kind to walk out and leave me with my anger. I would be so mad that I wanted to throw something. I didn't, but I felt like it...lol. That was his way of not fighting. Although, I believe couples should try to talk their problems out, in this particular case, and any other lines you draw, if she starts to try to "fight" about it.....do not fall into that trap....walk away. If she crosses the boundry and starts to talk about OM to you again, remind her that you have asked her not to do that, so since she won't honor it you will have to leave. If she says she is sorry that she forgot and asks you to stay.....you can give her another chance the first time.....but not the second. Believe me, she won't forget the second time....she will only be testing you.

I think that is the way to draw up your boundries. Anytime you feel that she is not respecting you.....tell her that you cannot tollerate that treatment or behavior and as long as she chooses to continue to do that, you won't come around her. You want to be her friend, but that is being disrespectful.

The thing is this, Grant, if she is not going to disrespect you and if she makes you feel like a doormat......are you really sure that is who you want for a wife? I know that right now in your pain that you are in a type of "fog" yourself and it is hard to see beyond that, but I don't think a man wants a woman that doesn't respect him. The reason I believe that is b/c every single book I have ever read and ever magazine I have read, ever article about what men desire the most from women is admiration.....which is just another word for respect. That is why so many men will have an affair with a woman they don't even love or she may be ugly as a pig, but if she makes him feel like a king, then he will keep going back to her. That admiration is that important to him. Therefore, since your ego has had a hard kick in the seat of your pants, I think you need to make a list of things that you intend to draw up some boundries about. Then stick to them and you will begin to feel stronger and more like the man you use to feel like. Reading the newsletters from making her happy will help you in this area also. It can be found on the Internet. In the long run, you will earn her respect by making her respect you. She may act like she doesn't like it, but as I told one of my kids once......you don't have to love me if you don't want to, but by God you will respect me!

Well, as usual, I have written a very long post. Sorry about that. I can't seem to stop once I get started. I will check on you later and see how you are coming with those boundries. BTW, where do you stay when you go back home from being at work?

I didn't understand why you were picking up your kids at OM's wife's house. Could you explain that? You said she did not know about the affair. Which only tells me that OM doesn't want her to know......and that means he does not want to leave her or he's afraid she'll take him to the cleaners at court. Anyway, it will only be a matter of time that your W's fantasy man and dream will fade and she will begin to come out of the fog. But you want to be the better man when she does.

Take care,
Sandi

Hi Sandi,
Thanks so much for the post, and please don't apologise for it's length. I'm just enormously grateful that you would put so much time and effort to help.

Just to get current........ Had a really positive weekend at home. She slept at home ( as opposed to going to her sister's), and I think I made the most of all the interactions that we had. I was positive, upbeat and strong in her presence, and there wasn't any negativity or sniping, showing my hurt or devastation. I acted "as if", and mostly as a close friend, and right from the off, till the moment I left her, it was friendly, without pressure, and really even quite warm at times.

There was no mention of OM from her at all. She is very much aware that talking about him and her feelings for him, is no longer acceptable to me, and more than that, I think she realises that it will be easier for all of us if we can avoid those "triggers" which in the past few months have kept us on that rollercoaster.

I admire her for trying to respect my feelings on it, and for responding to my efforts to try to work towards establishing a more stable friendship. I know without her trying too, it would be almost impossible.

I must say, I do find it hard on one level to understand that she might need to feel that she was attractive to other men. Throughout our marriage, I have always looked at her, found her to be beautiful, and told her so. But I do realise, that her take on my looking at other women in images of pornography, went a huge way to invalidating my words to her. Particularly after she had ramped up our sexual relationship. I know that it's a huge thing for her.

I have wondered also whether she is having a sort of MLC. She has said in the past, that she is not, although I believe that some of her behaviours, thoughts and actions do have some parallels.

Did I really say that I wanted her to read the DR book? I don't recall saying that exactly. Although, to be fair, I am completely mad at the moment, so I wouldn't be surprised!! lol I did learn prettly early on that the DB principals are strictly for 1 person to put in operation, in my sort of situation at least. Perhaps what I meant was that I wished she might be open to the message of reconciliation in the book.
But I can quite understand that to do that would NOT be a good thing. But thanks so much for pointing that critical issue out.

The most difficult thing for me at the weekend, was dealing with her going out for the evening and not returning till 4 in the morning. I was almost insane, thinking about all the possible scenarios about where she might be, who she was with, what she was doing. I knew where she said she was, and though I did believe her, I was still racked with pain and insecurity when she returned home so late.

But I didn't question her, or let her see that I couldn't sleep until she came home. Instead, I just made her coffee in the morning, and she told me all about her evening, and what had happened. I was so glad that I hadn't pursued, or used any of the "more of the same" stuff, because I know that she was telling the truth. If I had acted like the victim, I know it would have spiralled into negativity again. That was good, and I achieved one of my solution based goals..... to get through a weekend without any of that. It's a baby step, and I am trying to see this as another forward move.

I appreciate your thoughts on the boundaries/doormat thing. It's a difficult one to weigh up sometimes. Right now, she has lost her trust in me, and with it, her respect. I know that I need to try to earn that again, and appreciate that my ego and emotions are going to take a big old bashing! I am prepared to be in this for the long haul, but I think I will know when I have done all that I can. If it is to no avail, then at least I will know that I've done my very best, and I don't see how anything bad could come of that. Of course I'm trying not to think about that now, and I'm really working on positive visualisation, and generally putting out good vibes to attract good things to me. I believe in that, I really do. But I have lost sight of that in the last few years.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, that of course I don't want to be with someone who doesn't respect me, but I've got to re-instate my self-respect first before I can hope to gain hers again. I think there may be love there, although she says it's gone. But it is behind a very very big wall, and buried deep somewhere.

Patience, courage and faith, are the things that I pray for. I will check out the "making her happy" newsletters. Thanks for that.

Just to help clarify the OM house situation.......

My sons are best friends with OM's sons. They both sleep over there sometimes, and I had gone to pick them up in the car. At this time, the OM had moved out for a few weeks. This guy apparently talks with lots of old women "friends", apparently on a purely platonic level. I think that he DOES want to leave his wife, but moved back in for the sake of his kids. That's my understanding of it, although right now, because W and I no longer talk about him, I cannot be sure of his or her status.

I can't directly affect it anyhow. I have to let it run it's course, and at the same time try to be the best man I can be, try to "outshine" him as you said. Ouch. lol.

Thanks again so much for all that you've written, and particularly like that hopeful bit at the end about OM fading, fog clearing, and me having become the "better man".

You're and angel S. Thanks.

Hi Grant, sorry, it's not you going crazy....it's me! I went back to check and it was the OM's wife you were referring to about suggesting reading the DR book.

Sounds like you handled the weekend very well. You did not sit up waiting for her to come in, did you? It didn't sound as though you did. That is good b/c it would have given the wrong signals to her. Just one tiny word of caution, and I know you will think, "Well, I just can't get it right", and that is not it at all, okay? You did great! But, just be careful and don't over-kill being "upbeat and happy acting" when she is at your house b/c she may get the idea that she is giving you false hope and that is the reason for you acting so "happy". We know that is not it at all. We know you are applying DB rules. But just don't over do.

I think she could be having some MLC issues, but of course, she will not admit to that. And, it's like I said about myself, my own H had given me compliments before, but there was just a need for reasurrance from some other man that was not my H. I could weigh 200 pounds and my H would still think I was beautiful b/c he loves me. See what I mean? I wanted to know if I was still attractive and sexy to men that did not know me. When they would respond in a positive way, that made me feel good, so I went back for more. I did not have any desire to have an EA or PA with any of them b/c it was just all a "game" for me, but when my H "forced" me to delete everything and he started acting like a watch dog, that is when I started the EA with the OM. The ironic thing about it all is that this OM who was on my "friends list" was one of the least that I even felt attracted to b/c he was older than the rest. All the others were much younger than me. That was why it was just an ego game for me.....it was my ego booster shot every day. But, then when everything hit the fan, I hung on to that last man and of course he stepped up and knew all the right things to say to me and it went into an EA.

Your W's self esteem probably took a beating from finding out about your on-line EA--added with your porn addiction. Also, we women have our ways of "payback" that may be even subconcious to her right now. She may not be as "in love" with this OM and she wants to be in love with.....just somebody. The idea of being in love with "in-love". I think that was my problem. I wanted to have the "in-love" feelings so despartely and was so unhappy and so empty that I wanted to feel in love with this OM. Does that make sense? That is why I believe that in a matter of time, her feelings....or his....will fade. So, one way of looking at them being together is the fact that the more time they are together.....the sooner the "fling" will be over. Keep that in mind, okay?

I know she is younger than me, but I think that staying out till 4:00 a.m. will eventually catch up with her. The party life style is not something a person in their forties can keep up with like they did twenty years ago. That too, will begin to loose its luster. The entire "thing" that she is going through with the life style....OM...everything will one day not be near as exciting as it was at the beginning. It is a sign of MLC b/c she feels she wants to "replay" something she lost. If she discovers that the OM has women friends on the side.....other than herself....she may not handle that very well.

I think if the OM went home for the sake of his kids, that exposing the A may not work to your advantage. I don't know anymore. Puppy Dog Tails is a full believer in exposing all affairs! But, it could go either way in that case. It could just push your W and OM into a M if he thinks he has lost his kids anyway b/c his wife has kicked him out. Whereas, if he stays home b/c of his kids, your W will eventually get tired of playing second fiddle to them b/c he will want to be with them on all the special occasions instead of with your W.

Well, I'll talk to you later. Got to get to work. Hope you have a great day.

Sandi

Thanks Sandi. Some really great stuff there.

I didn't actually wait up for her. Went to be, but of course couldn't sleep. But she didn't know I was awake, and as far as she was concerned, I'd gone to bed.

I don't think I'm overdoing the upbeat, happy thing too much. I wanted so much to get through the weekend on a positive note, and it was really important to me to display independence and strength. I could see how over time, it might lead her to think about the false hope thing, but she has said soo many times over the past 5 months that she is so clear about NOT wanting to give me false hope at all. She may start to believe that I'm accepting the situation, that I'm happy with just a friendship...... I don't know. I can't look that far ahead at the moment. I'm just concentrating on making all our interactions as positive as I can.

You're absolutely right about my W's self esteem taking a huge blow after exposure of my on-line affair, AND in discovering that I was still using porn. In truth, I think she is still not over it, although in ending our marriage, she's certainly saying that she is done with that part of her life.

She did say many months ago when she knew that I was getting therapy for my issues, that she didn't want to give me false hope about getting back together.
Though it's so difficult what to believe when it was all so very raw back then, and especially when we're taught to believe nothing that they say, and half of what they do. It's all very confusing when you try to analyse too much.

We both made a huge mistake in not confronting all the difficult issues that were behind my affair. But God, it felt wonderful in that time when we seemed to have such love and passion for one another. I realise now, that we swept those issues under the carpet, though it seemed that we were both so happy to move on from it.

I appreciate now very much, that I should have reassured her more, promised monogamy, and really helped to build her self esteem and trust. I didn't work hard enough at that. It's not that I didn't want to, I just didn't realise how vital that work was. Hindsight is a great thing.

She has said that she didn't want to be with anyone at the moment, and justifies her EA by saying that it's NOT an affair, that they just talk. But I would have to be a complete ass not to know that she has strong feelings for him.

I am hoping that it will fade, and the addiction to her R with him will become less. That's why I'm so desperate not to do anything negative that will push her further toward him, and I so appreciate you're saying that it might fade. They have a history though, and that's also not helping.

Just to let you know, it's not that she stays out late very often. Although she has certainly been out and about more than at any time in our M.
I did laugh though when you mentioned about it catching up with her, because that's exactly what she said to me the next morning. lol.
She is certainly doing a lot of "replaying". All the music from High school with this guy, memories etc. But it was her that told me that he talked to lots of other women. I do feel though, that was to try to underplay the depth of their R, and thinking about it now, that was before I discovered all the calls and text messages.

I am definitely of the mind, that there is little to be gained in exposing the affair to OM's W. I don't want to inadvertently sabotage their marriage too. I don't want to give her any further reasons to escalate her R with this man and to push her into his arms.

I have learned that I can have some affect on her. Whether I can regain her respect, trust and love again, I just don't know yet. But I will work the programme, and listen to all that I can. That's why I'm so grateful for your perspective. I think I'm blessed and very lucky that you're here. Thankyou.

Grant