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Good Morning Julia.

I was up until 0300 this morning thinking and reading and thinking and I drove past her house at 0130 and she wasn't there and I see that she stopped at the liquor store earlier in the day and that tells a story different from the I'm so tired voice mail that she left. So, I went home and did some more thinking. I know a lot about what my W has been up to for the last year and when I add that to what other information I have, it tells a story.

I posted earlier that I'm in a struggle between the new me and the old me and it's true. However, that statement has larger ramifications.

It's like my one friend said about growing up with ADD. He told me it felt to him like the rest of the world got the instruction book for life and he missed out and this led him and I can related completely to not knowing what normal behavior in a given situation looks like. I've got that problem too. I've never known where to draw appropriate boundaries and the old me needed her so badly that I was willing to accept almost any behavior to avoid losing her. The old man interpreted every interaction and piece of information in a light that didn't threaten. So, when I found out about her first new male friend, I said to myself, it's platonic and just like the male friends she had when we met and when she would stay out partying until 0600 Wednesday morning, I swallowed it down because I was so afraid of being alone and of losing her. When I found out about her making out with the young guy she met at the bar just days before moving out, I was more nervous than angry or hurt. I was more probably in shock. That was the old me.

As I kept working on myself, a new me started to emerge and the first real glimmer of the new me came a couple of months ago when after our MC session and a night out drinking and dancing, W told me that she was worried about her drinking, that she had blacked out and couldn't remember parts of an evening. She didn't say that it was only one time. I sent her an e-mail and thanked her for trusting me and she replied that she was just waiting to have it thrown back in her face. A couple of weeks later, I talked to her on Saturday night and I cautioned her about not drinking and driving and she told me that she wasn't, she had already driven where she was going. Then, on Sunday when she called to talk to the kids, it sounded like she had been drinking all day and as I think back now, it's pretty obvious that she spent the night somewhere besides her house. I again cautioned her on her drinking and driving and she got very upset and I reminded her of her passing out and she got more upset and hung up on me. I felt the urge pretty strongly to start apologizing right away. However, that feeling was counterbalanced with the thought that I didn't do anything wrong and I wasn't going to apologize for nothing. I never apologized and she never mentioned it again.

That was really the first evidence of the new man. Since then, I've moved more fully into valuing myself and seeing in the mirror what other people see.

I started this DB journey because I was afraid of losing her. Along the way, I realized that I didn't want the kids to have to go through the pain and hurt and I'd be fine. Now, I'm realizing that my kids are already experiencing plenty of pain and hurt from the Mom being gone, but, also from my inability to do it all.

When I've put the evidence in front me it tells a story. Evidence like searches for information about pregnancy tests and the morning after pill and the note in her purse about how much it was going to cost in cash or certified funds, later I found a note of the day and time and to be sure and eat breakfast and abstain from alcohol, and this is the damning part, to bring inhaler. W has asthma and carries a rescue inhaler. Then since I work for the company that provides our health insurance, I checked the procedure and diagnostic codes for her last 2 OBGYN visits. One was her annual and the other to try and figure out why she bleeds so much and so irregularly. On both visits, our insurance was billed for a pregnancy test. I had a vasectomy almost 2 years ago. The second visit included a complete VD screen. I'm disease free. I suppose it's possible that was part of trying to figure out her bleeding. The old me was still twisting this and a bunch of other data like the text messages planning a weekend in the mountains and she certainly didn't pay for it into a story that didn't threaten the old me. No, W said that all the pregnancy stuff was helping out a girlfriend. Now, I might fool myself into buying that except for one small minor detail. There are no calls or text messages to her cell phone to or from a number that is a girlfriend. When I look through her call logs, it tells an interesting picture. There are basically only calls and texts from me and the kids, from Matt T, Matt C, Rick T, and Rick D. There are occasional calls here and there, but, no pattern of calls that would in any way indicate that she has a girlfriend. When I snooped last, I listened to a voicemail of a man calling her honey and sweetheart and saying "I love you so much, I just need to see you one more day." I copied all the text messages in her phone from the inbox and the sent items. Last week, I finally faced those messages and I put them into threaded order. The story I read there is that she has been intimate with almost certainly two of the men she is in regular contact with and probably all four. In my heart, there is really no doubt that she is being unfaithful.

My goal heading into my last MC session was to get W to agree to come to MC again and to wait on filing for D for 6 months. I felt that if I made the deep identity level change in how I relate to the children, then she couldn't look at me and say that I haven't changed. She agreed to those things. I felt encouraged. The old me was still part of the conversation.

Last Friday, I was snooping again and read an e-mail to Rick D who she has been dodging for a while, not returning his calls or texts until days later. She told him that she was busy and needed to step things up as she discovered that the kids haven't been well cared for, without boundaries or guidance and that the house is a disaster. I can only imagine that her concept of stepping things up is how she got the kids registered for school, got their physicals, and how she takes them to school. I hardly call that stepping things up. The house is still a wreck and in fact is worse now than it was then and yes, I'm failing at the standard I desire to set for myself as a Dad.

Since Friday, since facing this information again, having the new me look at the story it tells, after spending a bunch of time reading over in infidelity, after a quick run past her house in the wee hours that basically confirmed it for me, I'm feeling fine. I'm a wee bit unsettled, but, otherwise, I'm OK. Does this mean that I'm over my W? No. No, we've been together for 18 years and I've never been in another relationship. I have baggage. What I don't have is an irrational need to try and keep this R. I love my W. She has given me 18 years of a semblance of life, three great kids, good sex, a certain amount of support and encouragement. She's an attractive woman that I would love to grow old with. She is also a lying and untrustworthy person that seems to not notice the pain she is causing to those around her. I love her, but, I can't continue forward with that person. Like I said at the top. If she were being faithful, I wouldn't even consider quitting.

I respect myself now. I love myself now. There is a self to respect and to love now that there wasn't before.

Julia, the need to have evidence is driven by her unwillingness to admit what she is doing. I do have to show her that I'm not the clingy needy co-dependent man that she has been with these last 18 years. I do need to show her that I'm a great Dad and that she is missing out.

The trouble is that she is approaching this problem from two different reference points. One persona if you will looks at my performance as a Dad and finds fault. The other persona looks at my performance as a Husband and finds fault. I can't compete with a man who has no kids and has plenty of disposable income to lavish on her. I can't compete with the man who is already divorced and has his one child only occasionally. I have the kids all the time, the extra money is going to pay the lawyer to deal with her DUI, to pay for the medical bills from her broken collar bone that she broke while out walking someone's dog while drunk at 0300 one morning. The extra money goes to pay for her to be out of the house and to pay for other people to care for the children since she isn't. I can't compete with them and until now, she has always been able to count on my love and support. It's time that she felt the weight of the consequences of her decision.

The 180 will be when the kids are happy as clams to have Dad in the house for a week and when we switch off, the house is clean and neat and the kids have stories to tell of their adventures, and Dad has stories to tell of his adventures during the off weeks and yes, it will be to rub her face in it. There was quite a little bit of jealous behavior on her part after my night out getting molested by drunken bar chicks. She doesn't value me and she can't see that other people specifically other women do. My friend has been divorced 2 years and the times his ex-wife was sweetest and when things seemed like that the possibility existed that they could get back together were when he was seeing someone and getting on just fine without her and their daughter was happy to go spend time with Daddy.

I guess that I kind of feel like Redsawks. I'm not going to go out next week and start screwing around. I still haven't decided whether to hire an investigator to get more concrete evidence of her infidelity. I will probably talk to a lawyer. I have a DB counseling session next Wednesday. I've always avoided mentioning this in the past, but, our MC is one of the counselors working out of MWD's office in Boulder, CO. Our MC is also going to be my DB coach or at least an IC that I can trust who knows a lot of our situation. To tell how screwy this is, I was so afraid of losing her, I never brought up in counseling that she was making out with the bus driver back in April and how much it pissed me off that she still texted and talked to him daily for another month and a later e-mail that leaves far too many questions. I didn't bring it up in MC because I didn't want to piss off W. I was afraid that she would leave. That is so sad.

So, I'm not quite sure where I'm going from here. I'm not hurting today, I don't feel numb. I feel settled. I feel the way I often do after I've been wrestling with a decision for a while and then finally there is a resolution. That's how I feel, like I've reached a decision and found a resolution and for me, I think that the resolution is going to be to file for D from my W and continue working on me and continue to be open to a new R with her, but, probably not until I've had a chance to be without her.

For all of you that get here, I love you all dearly. You are all a great help during this time, especially you (((((Julia))))).

Dan

Good Morning to you too (((Lola)))

Well, I haven't asked, I've accused, not quite the same thing. At our last MC session when talking about my snooping, W said "I don't have to defend myself." In the past she has said that all I needed to do was ask her. I pointed out in MC that I was asking her and she wasn't telling me anything which is why I was snooping.

I honestly don't believe that she can admit what she is doing. I remember someone over in Infidelity posting that their H refused to admit that there was an affair even with the pictures of him kissing the OW in front of him.

I'm not sure that it's necessary. I'm not looking to burn her around town, though I have thought that I should get all the men together and ask them if she told them that she has the gift that keeps on giving. I don't have it, for whatever reason, I'm immune to getting it from her. Seriously, this is a tough question for me. On the one hand I think that they deserve to know and at the same time I kind of feel like it is their just punishment for screwing a married woman. I'll think on that one for a while.

Let's say that I haven't completely decided, but, I've mostly decided.

Dan

Hi Dan, Just stopping by. Congrats on the progress you've made! Keep in the positive mode. Have you read any of the threads on detaching?? The 8/22 detaching thread by sgctxok is really good. I thought I was detached until reading Bills post & the detaching poem. Very good - I printed it out - to help remind me this is where I want to go.....

Oh, this one is gonna hurt. It's scary, REAL scary. Gotta do it. In death ground fight. I've got to kill off that other guy. I wish he would just hurry up and expire.

Dambit all to you know what anyway. I started reading 5LL a few minutes ago. I'm not at all over her. That isn't the point. The point is that even though it hurts, I'm to the place now where staying hurts worse than going. Why wasn't she strong enough. Why couldn't I grow 10 years ago. WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!?

Why can't I be an idiot for whom there was never any success? Then I would be used to stuff not working out. NO, I've got to be the smart guy who can do anything with persistence. College is just a pain in the arse, not a pain in the heart.

It's going to be a great week, <SOB>

Dan

Hiya Dan

I read your posts last night but wanted to think a little before responding. So, this post may be a little frank but you know I mean it with the best intentions

So, to me it sounds like you know that your wife has been up to some stuff lately that she shouldn't have. You've established that, do you really need to know anymore? It sounds to me like snooping is doing you more harm than good? It really doesn't help your focus.

Saying that I wanted to ask you a little more about what your focus is at this point, as it seems a little unclear from your post. Focus is as important as without that we flounder. Focus can change, it doesn't have to be fixed and, as you have said, you have gone through a transformation process too. If the thought of your wife's (potential) activities are too much for you to bear and you feel that you can't carry on with trying to save your marriage then of course we will all support you. However, if you still want to carry on down the path you have chosen then you are going to have to put these concerns aside for a little while, and believe me I know how hard it is! This is kind of what you said to me the other day

It sounds to me like your wife has lived within a lot of restrictions in her life. You said you were both part of quite a controlling church and maybe she is having her second teenage rebellion years. One Day mentioned on her thread that her DBing coach had mentioned this as a form of midlife crisis. Here is the advice her coach gave her in case you find it helpful.



You said to me


What would it achieve if she were to admit what she was doing? What would you expect to happen from your point of view if this happened? Do you think it would ease your mind anymore? Do you think it would stop you snooping? What resolution would you get from this information? And I think you are already doing a pretty amazing job of showing her how strong and independent you are and what a great dad you are. I am sure she is fully aware of what she is missing out on and how shallow her choice of path is at the moment. She is just not ready to accept it yet. It is something that is very hard to do.

You need to make it safe for her to return instead of acting like a disapproving parent. She reacted that way to you when you said about the drink driving. I know you said it because you care and I don't underestimate your concern, you just have to show it as her peer, not as her parent. It sounds to me as if she has some things she needs to get out of her system. I'm not saying they are right, or even responsible but she is a grown woman.


You don't need to compete. You have her children, you have her family and that is far stronger than any superficial fling, or whatever. There is no competition really and what you view as baggage she sees as her family.


This to me would be a haven to her. When you have this, maybe you could invite her round for a DVD with you and the kids. After all, she reached out to you and included you in her family day.


Really? Is this the new you? Sounds like a pretty bitter, revengeful you to me. Not the strong, independent man who doesn't need to prove anything to anyone because he is a great man and a great father...


Why does filing for divorce have to feature in this? Sounds pretty much like that old revenge need is rearing his ugly head. Is that truly what you want? And don't you think it will stir things up and exacerbate a situation that just needs to cool for a while? It's up to you my friend, just my thoughts.

(((Dan)))

(((((Dan))))))

I wanted to stop by and say hi. I just read Julia's post to you and she makes some extremely valid points. Listen to her and really digest what she has said. She is wise beyond her years!!!!!!!!

The old me doesn't want to let go and has trouble accepting what she is up to based on the evidence I have. No, it doesn't necessarily help my focus. I suppose there is part of me that hopes with conclusive evidence, W would be honest and we could have an honest talk with one another.


I hurt so much, I'm sobbing all the dammed time. My focus is surviving, just surviving and not ruining my life. It isn't that any new evidence substantially changes what I've known for a while. What has changed is me. I'm having my MLC too. Like I've said, W is the only woman I've ever anything. She's the only one I ever dated, my only girlfriend, my only lover. For multiple reasons, I made peace as best I could with having only this relationship and all that goes along with that. That peace isn't surviving her behavior. Or to put it another way, when she was here with me, we had a pretty miserable R, but, I got something out of it and I could look at the little on my plate and be thankful for it. Now, my plate is empty and my burden has increased and it's at that point when the revolution comes.

I have the affliction of the intelligent, I seem to believe that more information is always good and that given enough information and effort, anything can be accomplished. I suppose that I hope that if she were to be honest and we could have an honest conversation, then I could better decide if there is any possibility of us having a R again and if not, it would make deciding to move on easier.


I appreciate the cudos, I don't think I'm doing an amazing job. I think I'm doing a piss poor job because the job is bigger than me. I could do this if she was being faithful. Seriously, if I wasn't diverting a huge part of my energy to dealing with her ripping my heart out of my chest, I would have the energy to be a great Dad and manage things around the house etc.


That's some pretty good advice there. Trouble is, I don't know if I can do that right now.


I don't know about that. She sees her family as baggage. W went out with a friend a year or so ago, and our friend Liz told me before that the way W spoke about the kids, it was as if she woke up one day and had a husband and 3 kids and feels like she's missed out on life. Perhaps it is just part of the MLC. I've had more than one person say to me that if W thinks that I'm such a bad Dad, how is it that she can abandon them and leave them in my care. In fact, other mothers can't comprehend at all how she can do what she has and just walk away from the kids. I think that she has moments of missing the kids and most of the time, she is more happy with the single life she is leading.


See, that's it. I don't have the strength and energy to build this kind of life for the kids and me right now. I'm bleeding too much of me into the situation with W.


OK, I can see the bitterness in this and you are probably right and it flows out of my desire for her and the irrational hope that if she saw me valued and wanted, she would cast aside the mental image she carries of me and would want me again.


NO! I DO NOT WANT A DIVORCE. I WANT MY WIFE TO STOP BEHAVING BADLY AND WORK ON THIS MARRIAGE.
If she were faithful, I would find a way to continue under this burden. Hope would sustain me.

Julia, I'm not strong enough to hold the pain inside anymore.

Look, I write stuff that sounds right and then 5 minutes later doesn't. I'm worn out and tired and angry and lonely and feeling unloved and I feel like I'm powerless, caught between my honor and my responsibilities; like I'm a shadow's width away from being a dirty faced war refuge with the thousand mile stare.

I know it was only a few weeks ago that I was gungho on DBing and hopeful that things could work out. Now, I don't know, I just don't know how much I can take. I'll see my counselor on Wednesday and maybe that will help.

Dan

I cried and I sobbed a lot this morning while replying to Julia and contemplating the future and again in the shower and again while talking to my FIL's second and now ex-wife.

BUT

BUT

MAYBE I'm a little stronger than I think that I am and MAYBE I CAN continue my DBing efforts in the face of multiple affairs. MAYBE I can handle the pain and hurt.

I don't know of course, but, I'm feeling a lot stronger now than I did earlier.

Pray for me and for our afternoon together.

Thanks,
Dan

((((((((((Julia)))))))))) Kisses too, but, only on the cheek and the forehead

Dan

Just briefly, have a great time this afternoon. Remember no relationships talks, just fun family time. Shut all those feelings up in a little box and put it on the shelf (metaphorically speaking) just for the afternoon. I find it quite helpful to visualise that sometimes.

You CAN do this. Have fun. Sending positive vibes...

Well, here is the next installment of As Dan's Mood Turns

OK. I'm going to try starting over with a beginners mind as it says in DB. I'm going to try and throw away all of my preconceived notions. I'm going to try and turn off my fear and my imagination and my judgment.

W told me about her most recent visit to the OBGYN. She has been bleeding for 4 weeks. The OBGYN did a vaginal ultrasound and a biopsy and both came back negative for anything wrong. She said that she was tested for everything and she doesn't have AIDS or anything else except the one that she's had for years. She told me that they ran the pregnancy tests each time even though she told them she couldn't be pregnant both to rule it out as a cause and to be covered for liability reasons. Then, to help normalize her hormones, she has been prescribed, you guessed it, birth control pills. I just have to laugh at all this. It is almost as if God or someone is toying with me.

W had a new camelback type of backpack and she told me about it how it was a birthday present from her girlfriend and how she bought her two packs and let W choose which one she wanted and took the other one back. And, she told me how her one friend is going to teach her Photoshop. I asked if it was her friend that does video and she talked just a little about him.

I've always thought that I have at least some ability to read people and either my W has learned to be an amazingly good liar and she is a complete sociopath, or I'm wrong and she is fairly innocent and I've been reading the "evidence" to tell a bad story because I'm afraid and there was no bad story to tell. I'm sure that we've all had things happen to us where afterward we thought "No one will ever believe what just happened." Perhaps that is what is happening here. I just don't know.

Here is what I do know. Having made the decision to divorce my wife, and getting a good cry on this morning, I came out the other side feeling much stronger and like that perhaps I have more in me to spend on trying to save this marriage. It is like I gave myself permission to hurt and cry and continue trying.

On to our day.

I rushed around with my face to the grindstone getting as much done as I could before W showed up because I didn't want her to see how badly I had let things slide and because it needed doing. She showed up and we got sunscreen on the kids and filled the water bottles and the bladder on her pack, we stopped at the store and then drove into downtown. The kids were just a handful, but, I never hollered or yelled at them. We ate, and I got a BBQ sandwich for W and she asked if I was going to share it with her and I did. I also got S8 a hotdog and myself a cheese steak sandwich which I shared with W. We had a great time sitting in the shade eating and the kids asked and I took pictures of them in the tree with my cell phone camera. Then the kids and I rode on some rides and then we went and got ice cream and sat in the shade to eat it, and then we looked at the flowers and the crafts for sale, got some smoothies to drink. The total bill for the day $120 and worth every penny. Oh I forgot at the very end, we sat and watch the ventriloquist and the kids loved it.

I saw that my W had her work schedule for the next 2 weeks and I saw that she is off on the 12th and 13th. My birthday is on Monday the 15th, and early this morning I was hoping to get some time away with her where we could have an honest conversation where I was going to tell her to cut the BS, that I know that she has been fooling around. I'm ever so glad that I didn't say anything about that. Instead I asked if she had any plans for Friday night and Saturday and that I was hoping that we could go out together Friday night and then spend the day together on Saturday. She seemed open to the idea. I will need to actually make plans, but, it is just possible that my W and I can go on a date together except that I will be like we are on our first date and just make it a fun evening and day.

When we got home, we washed the windows in her car and then she came in and we took care of some things. I got a couple of hugs which I initiated and a kiss. One hug was her thanking me for a wonderful afternoon. I looked for the kiss and didn't make it weird. It's possible that she was a little hesitant to give me a kiss, but, I didn't take advantage of it and she relaxed during the kiss. I'm ambivalent about whether I shouldn't have gone for the kiss, but, I enjoyed it and it's too late to do anything about it now.

That was our day.

Maybe I'm stronger than I think and maybe if I start with a beginner's mind and forget all the things that I "know" then it might be possible to resurrect the romance and love that once existed between us.

(((Julia))),
It's funny, there were no feelings needing put into a box while we were out today.

I'm not really sure where things go from here and I'm certainly not sure where my W and I are relationship wise, but, I think that if I can master my emotions and feelings, then things could be possible.

Dan