Corri, Your post made me think about the difference between my cat and my dog. They both have decided I belong to them. The cat is independent and likes to cuddle. She shows up periodically during the day to touch base with me. If I don't pet her, she just goes on about her business and comes back later.
The dog follows me around constantly, looks to me for approval, and anytime she catches my eye she rolls on her back to be petted. If she doesn't get my attention she droops and looks at me most reproachfully. Even when she gets petted, she goes back to following me around, looking at me reproachfully, etc.
The cat and I get along great. The dog drives me crazy. I think the cat actually gets petted more even though the dog is working harder at getting petted.
Thanks for helping me figure out my reactions to my pets!
AM, I didn't see anything in Corri's post that told you to be an [censored]. You can be sensitive toward your partner and independent too.
I'll be rereading your post a lot in the next few days. Sure, it came across as a bit harsh, but that's okay - I think it was exactly what I needed to hear. As much as I'd like to hear that I've come up with some great idea to solve all of the problems between myself and my wife, I'd much rather hear what I'm doing wrong and how I can fix it. That's the reason I'm here and that's exactly what you've done. I greatly appreciate the thought that you put into my situation.
A little background for you on the weekend trip issue. Whenever my wife and I have gone anywhere without the kids in the past couple of years I've always hoped for something to happen between us. Halfway through the trip when it hasn't, I get utterly depressed, say something to her, and all hell breaks loose. I really don't blame her for not wanting to go anywhere with me because that's what she expects to happen every time. So I thought that by proposing the "non-romantic getaway" I could convince her that an argument was not going to happen, thereby easing her mind and allowing her to just have fun without any relationship worries. Nonetheless, after reading your post I agree that I probably went about things the wrong way. Of course you're right that I don't really want to go away for a weekend alone with my wife without any chance of romance. But I would have certainly made the best of it if I thought it might eventually do some good.
You also have some really good points relative to "the list". My thinking on that one was that her list could include whatever I could do to show her that I love her - which very well could be helping with or taking over various tasks, but also could be something less task-oriented, such as calling her for no specific reason, sending flowers, etc. But I agree that the way I had intended to go about it could give her the impression that I'm wanting to "hang a banner on the wall saying see all the things that I do for you...". Based on your input, I'm scrapping that idea.
With regard to your recommendation to put myself and my own happiness first, I feel like that's a big part of what got me into this mess. I thought that trying to put her first might be the best way to make some progress. However it obviously hasn't worked. And although I have been trying to put her first, I doubt that she'd see it that way. I think she sees me as being completely selfish in this whole pursuit.
AchingMan was right by the way when he said that guys like he and I have something of a "hey I'm a sweet sensitive guy so why don't you want to give me some lovin?" complex". I know exactly how you feel AM.
MPT, I take it that your post was a subtle way of telling me that I'm acting like your dog when I'd probably have a lot more success if I could learn to act like your cat. I agree with you. I'm actually trying to become more cat-like, but I'm having a hard time doing so obviously. Anyway, as always I value your comments - even when they're creatively disguised as being revelations about your pets. In the spirit of becoming more catlike, I am trying to develop some outside interests/hobbies. I started running this week - hadn't really done any exercise to speak of since college and I decided at 34 I might need to start doing something to stay in shape. So I'm planning to go for a run three times a week after getting the girls to sleep. That will keep me from following my wife around like a dog - at least on the nights that I run. Also, I'm trying to learn how to play golf. When my wife was about to take the girls upstairs to get them to bed tonight (it was her turn) I told her that I was going out to hit a bucket of balls. How things like that will ultimately affect my situation with her remains to be seen.
Sooner, It was actually a combination. Only you know if you've been behaving like my dog. But she nailed my dog's behavior. The jingling keys she mentioned in another post started me thinking along these lines. Reminded me so much of the jingling of dog tags, which causes me to cringe.
I think Corri is going to be able to help you out a lot. I think she has had a similar experience with what your situation may be like. She'll be able to recognize dog behavior very quickly. My H is decidedly a cat. I don't think she's going to pull any punches with you either, so be very careful about "yes, but-itis." You might get hurt.
Gentle tact has probably never been one of my strong points. Blunt-as-a-butter-knife is more my norm...I try to be gentle, I do, then WHAM! I lower the boom...with good intention, mind you, but that doesn't mean it feels too good to the recipient. My apologies for my bluntness and if I trod a bit too heavily upon your feelings.
HOWEVER....in your post you said:
Quote: With regard to your recommendation to put myself and my own happiness first, I feel like that's a big part of what got me into this mess. I thought that trying to put her first might be the best way to make some progress.
Ahhh...now the light is beginning to flicker on.
Having a 'need' fulfilled (sex), and having fulfilling happiness are two completely different things. You may experience happiness, or feelings of wonderful contentment when your needs are fulfilled, (I personally am wonderfully happy and enormously content after a good italian meal) but personal needs and personal happiness in and of themselves are two seperate....things (for lack of a better word).
Let me ask you. What is the most attractive quality a person can have? Now before you go spouting off 36-24-36...think carefully.
Have you ever met a person who just radiated happiness? Those people seem to always be wearing a smile, their eyes contain a certain light, they just enjoy the hell out of whatever they are doing, no matter what it is, their positive attitude seems to know no limits...they laugh easily, they cry easily, they're out there living life, rolling with the punches, having a little party of one every day of their existence. Know anyone like that?
Don't you just love being around people like that? Have you ever noticed that people like that always seem to have other people around them, drawn like moths to a flame...regardless of their shape, size, coloring or looks...they may not have the 'most' in life (they usually don't), they may not be the 'best' at anything (they usually aren't)...and they don't care one whit if they are the best or if they have the most because they are just too happy to give a second thought to it...
Ever heard that saying:
The richest people are not those who have the most. The richest people are those who need the least.
Those Happy People, the ones we all are so drawn to...understand very well the difference between needs and happiness.
I'm not saying that your need is unimportant, because it is supremely important (really). But I do think it is important to make the distinction between the two. I truly believe that when one pursues and fulfills that which makes them happy, having their needs fulfilled takes care of itself.
Think again about that person you know who radiates happiness. And then think of an instance when some hardship befell that person...everyone and their brother who knows that person would probably immediatly drop whatever it was they were doing to somehow rush to that person's aid in whatever way they could. Well, isn't it true? None of us who knows such a person is willing for one minute to risk the dimming of such a light so rare....seriously, the Happy People need for nothing because we who know them won't allow it!
Every single one of us is capable of that kind of happiness. But most of us are so consumed with defining and fulfilling our 'needs' that we never take the time to define and fulfill our happiness.
See where this is going?
Now, if you want to see it, I have this 'chart' I made up for myself when I was pondering and thinking about all of this for myself. It's pretty simple, really. But I'll share it with you if you'd like...for me, it helped me understand the difference between what a 'need' is and what 'happiness' is.
My point in all of this is, when you discover and pursue that which makes you happy, your wife is going to be just sooooo defenseless....
But you must put yourself first in order to discover this. This sounds very ego centered, but it isn't. It's one of those great big stupid-ass paradoxes the universe throws at us for a cosmic giggle, I guess.
You're running. YES!!! If you enjoy it and it makes you happy, keep doing it. You're starting to play golf. YES!!!! If you continue to enjoy it and it makes you happy, keep doing it.
If you want to make a list every weekend with your wife because it makes you happy to talk with her and help her, hey, keep doing it.
If it makes you happy to ride bikes with your girls, or read them stories, or help them with their homework, keep doing it...
If you want to take your wife on a weekend trip because it makes you happy, then GO DO IT.
See how you must put yourself first in order to pursue your own happiness?
Now...if you were doing these things in hopes of making another person(s) happy, can you now see where this can run off course almost immediately in all sorts of ways? How all parties concerned can end up on the losing side? How this strategy is a big crap shoot?
How other people choose to respond to your happiness is something beyond your control. But their actions and reactions do not have to have power over your happiness unless you allow it.
Okay. Done rambling. Let me know if you want to see the chart.
Quote: Is it possible that the sensitive guy myth is not really an attraction for some women?
No. Women like guys who are sensitive because it is genuine, not because they are trying to 'get' something in return for their concern.
Women do not like assholes. Women end up with assholes because they got the misguided notion that they can somehow 'change' him. A 'my love will conquer all' type fantasy. Then one morning they wake up to find they are in bed with an [censored].
It's all about giving vs. bartering....
You give because it makes you happy.
You barter because you want something in return.
So start exploring what makes you happy. See post to Sooner.
I've got to tell you - you are my new hero! Okay, maybe that's a little strong, but I find your posts to be filled with wisdom. I would definitely like to see your "chart", if nothing else just out of curiousity.
For most of my life, I have probably been one of those people that radiates happiness. I was always the class clown, always happy and easy to get along with, and people have generally enjoyed being around me. Although I'm a fairly good-looking guy, I've never been so good looking that the women flocked to me just because of my looks. But I've often been able to attract women with my personality - as long as I could get a few minutes to talk to them and just be myself. I'm fairly certain that was the reason that my wife fell in love with me.
But, around her anyway, I haven't radiated a lot of happiness lately. The lack of intimacy in our marriage has for the first time in my life caused me to be depressed - and I know that she can see that, even when I don't say a word about our relationship problems. I'm not walking around in a depressed funk all the time by any means, but she probably never knows when I'll go from being happy and fun to grumpy and pouty. I can understand how that would prevent her from wanting to get closer to me.
Before your post today, I actually realized that being unhappy could do nothing to help my situation. People aren't attracted to unhappy people. But since the source of my unhappiness was the lack of intimacy with my wife, I felt like I could find some magic solution to get her to change, then I'd be happy again and there would be a snowball effect. But it obviously doesn't work like that. I need to do whatever it takes to make myself back into the always happy, always fun guy that I used to be. And if I do that, I'll bet you're right that my wife will want to become closer to me.
Unfortunately, I can't just flip a switch and be "Joe Happy" again. But I can sure try, especially now that I realize how much it might help. The running and golf may be a good start. It's not as if I enjoy running so much (especially after the first week of it), but I need to be getting some cardiovascular exercise and I've known that for a long time. I do enjoy it when I'm done though - stopping is nice! And I'm just learning to golf, being about as far from a natural at it as one could be, but I'm enjoying trying to learn. In fact, I'll probably buy a set of clubs this weekend as I've been using my Dad's old set and they're in pretty rough shape. I'll have to see what else I can come up with. I think that if I can do some things for myself while continuing to do my part around the house and with the girls, my situation could really start to improve.
I had one small (okay, very small) success this morning. My wife doesn't work on Fridays, and this morning she was still laying in bed when I was about to leave for work. The girls were in the bedroom watching cartoons and pestering her. I said goodbye to the girls and gave them kisses and hugs, then leaned over to give my wife the traditional unromantic goodbye kiss, and she pulled me on top of herself and kind of squeezed me as if she was actually interested. I gave her a few kisses on her neck and shoulder and she seemed to enjoy it. Then I got up and left for work, terribly horny of course. I realize that's not much to most people, but it's a lot more friskiness than I've gotten from her in quite a while.
Corri, thanks so much. You've been a great help and I really appreciate it. I look forward to more advice from you in the future.
Thank you for your kind words...but really, the stuff I'm spouting to you here is stuff I learned from my shrink and many, many books...more than likely I'm plagerising the hell out of them all...If you find serious flaws in my logic...there's probably serious flaws in my logic. So my disclaimer here is I'm not spouting gospel, I have not spent years of my life researching any of this, it is just my opinion. But it is stuff that has worked for me. If it helps you on your own road, great. If not, well, at least it may be entertaining to read.
Okay, guy, pull out your hip boots...it's getting deep here.
Since I don't know how to attach graphics to this thinga-ma-bob, I'm going to have to describe this chart for you so you can draw it for yourself.
On a piece of paper, draw a circle that takes up about 2/3 of the center. Inside the circle, draw a square so that each corner of the square is touching the line of the circle.
Next, draw a vertical line down through the center of the circle and square, extending the line beyond the limits of the circle.
Now draw a horizontal line through the center of the circle and square, extending the line beyond the limits of the circle.
What you should now have is a circle with a square in the middle of it, divided into four equal quadrants.
On the outside left of the circle, write down Physical Well-Being. On the outside right of the circle, write down Mental Well-Being.
Inside of the circle, but outside of the square, write down Sense of Security (you can do this in each of the four portions of the circle not filled by the square). Got it?
Okay. Now for filling in the square.
Starting on the left side, fill in the top left square with the following:
Physical Stimulation: - exercise - touching - being touched
Now for the right side. In the upper right square, fill in the following:
Inner Stimulation: - exploration of self (things like thinking, reflection, prayer, meditation, fantasy, dreaming, creative visualization, etc.)
In the lower right square, fill in the following:
Outer Stimulation: - exploration of environment (things like conversations with others, education, you name it...whatever it is with which you engage outside of yourself to stimulate your mental activity).
Now, you are probably thinking to yourself, this is a direct rip-off of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (or whatever the hell his name was.) But I don't see these needs as being a 'hierarchy' or as a pyramid...needing to fulfill one quadrant to get to the next...I see these things as all being equally important to bring about the balance and sense of security of a person. We can argue the point, but that’s not the purpose here.
Each of us needs to determine for ourselves ‘how much’ and ‘what specific pursuit(s) we enjoy’ that brings about the fulfillment of each need we have. I believe we are happy when we are balanced.
This whole chart represents to me the basic 'needs' of a human (or me) to feel a sense of security with themselves and the world. Each quadrant must be fulfilled in order for the whole to be 'balanced.' So for example, if one is receiving over or under stimulation from the exploration of their environment, this circle is going to start tipping, thus throwing off the balance of the other quadrants.
If any of these quadrants are threatened in any way, the entire focus of your being will turn to getting that need fulfilled to the exclusion of all else. For example, if you don't have enough to eat, no place to sleep...your purpose in life at that time is do whatever you must do to find food and shelter to the exclusion of all else. You will probably give a hoot less about 'inner stimulation' until you are secure in the fact that you have enough to eat and a place to sleep. But in the pursuit of finding food and shelter, you are still way off balance.
I personally feel that going for prolonged periods without having each of these quadrants fulfilled can cause serious mental and physical illnesses...but I'm digressing here.
Okay, so my physical and mental well being are wrapped in my personal sense of security and trust. What ‘my happiness’ interacts with on a daily basis is external stimuli. This external stimuli is broken down into two kinds:
Stimuli I can control Stimuli I can’t control
Everyday, there is a two-way exchange of energy between me and the stimuli. (Action and Reaction).
My experience of the stimuli is colored by my emotional make-up, which include but is certainly not limited to:
Attitude Physical or mental dependencies/desires Need to control myself or others Avoidance of mental or physical pain/unpleasantness Pursuit of pleasure Anger/resentment/fear Exceeding my physical or emotional limits Unresolved issues
The indication that the balance of my happiness is being threatened is stress. A way for me to immediately deal with a stress is how I choose to act or react to the stress. If I can control the stress, I can choose to stop it (I’m running too fast and I can’t breath; I slow down or stop). If I cannot control the stress, I can control the way I choose to react to the stress (my husband is sending me zingers; I either personalize the zingers and become angry, I or don’t).
Depending on the balance of my happiness when these stresses occur will largely determine how well I act or react. For example, I know if I have been mentally overloaded, I’m tired, I’m late, and the kids are being demanding or uncooperative, I don’t control my actions or reactions with the kids or husband very well. I’m too low on physical and mental energy, and I’m out of balance. I must take the time I need to rebalance or I continue to be a crazed mad woman.
Notice I have been talking about 'needs,' not 'wants.' This chart for me represents basic needs. How much one needs for each 'need' is the variable, and changes with age and stages of life.
For example, I need eight hours of sleep each night to feel rested. If I go for too many consecutive nights without my eight hours, I start to become unbalanced. When I was younger, I needed more sleep. As I grow older, I may need less.
(I didn't put 'procreation' in my chart either, and that's because it seems to be a very specific need that shows up around puberty. For a woman, she can only procreate for a certain period of time in her life: from puberty to menopause. However, regardless of my age or stage of life, I will always need to touch and be touched. My experience of sex as an enjoyable, pleasurable act will continue my pursuit of it beyond my ability to procreate. Those who do not enjoy sex or experience pain from sex will avoid it. But they will still have a basic physical need to touch and be touched. I was trying to keep adjectives out of my chart, and sex to me is an adjective of a certain type of touching and communication…but if you want to add it, hey, have at it.)
Like I said before, fulfilling needs can be a pleasurable experience. When I have a certain type of meal, I experience great feelings of contentment and what I call 'happiness.' Because I like these 'feelings' when I am fulfilling a need, I can begin to give too much importance or weight to a need.
I need to eat [basic need]. I feel pleasure and great contentment and happiness when I eat certain types of foods. However, my desire to relive this pleasurable experience can cause me to overeat, and therefore become fat. Once fat, that will cause the entire 'self' to become unbalanced...being fat will threaten my overall physical and mental well being.
I'm not fat...but I do love to eat. How much and how often I want to eat is different than how much and how often I need to eat. And because of the pleasure of this experience for me, I have to keep a very tight rein on this desire, or I will get fat.
Many of us confuse the desire to relive a pleasurable experience as the source of our happiness, and the withholding of that pleasurable experience as the source of our unhappiness.
A want or a desire is the pursuit of fulfilling a specific need. Happiness is the ability to balance the fulfillment of all our needs. When one pursues happiness, one has already done the work necessary to know the ‘what and the how much’ for each need we have.
When the pursuit of fulfilling one need eclipses all others, we have become ‘need’ dependent, and all else falls out of balance. Eventually, the pleasure we receive in fulfilling this one desire becomes less and less, so we repeat or ‘need’ the action more and more to fill us up. And we need to be filled up with this one ‘desire’ because the definition and fulfillment of all of our other needs has been ignored.
Just for clarity sake, I do not think that need dependency is the same thing as addiction (though I don’t really believe in addiction…but that’s another argument).
This chart is far from complete because I haven’t really thought about it for a while. And your chart would probably look a bit different than mine…but the point is, happiness takes a great deal of thought, a great deal of effort, and a tremendous positive attitude. The more we practice it, the better we get at it, and the more automatic it becomes.
Happiness is a choice, an attitude, a way of life. When we know what it takes to make us happy, there are many things we purse to fill up ourselves. I think when you leave this one need you have alone for awhile, and turn your attention inward and onto the other things you need to make you happy, the ‘how much’ you think you have for your need is going to change…if nothing else, you will be looking at it with new eyes.
I can’t guarantee it. But it is a place to start.
Yes, I have thought about all of this. Now you see why I get mentally overloaded.
Thank you for going to so much trouble to describe your chart. The way that you've broken down the basic needs of a human being makes a lot of sense to me, as does the concept of needing to be "balanced" in order to be happy. I've got to admit though that while I'm probably a lot like you with regard to organizing my life through making "to do lists", the chart concept probably doesn't work as well for me. I think that I must handle information a bit differently, and putting my thoughts, needs, etc. down in a chart form as you've done doesn't really help me to see things any more clearly. However, the premise of your chart makes a lot of sense and I plan to spend some more time thinking about the things that you've listed and how each of them affects my state of well being.
Just because the chart concept didn't really click with me, please don't think that your efforts were in vain. You've definitely given me some things to think about and you do a wonderful job of helping me to see things from my wife's point of view. Thank you for caring enough to help me.
