-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I agree, she is frustrated, and I would also like to know why.
It is true that she has made a change, after 10+ years of struggle, and my almost leaving several times. I am pretty scarred after the whole thing, and I keep finding myself wanting to avoid sex just because my feelings are stilll hurt. It bothers me that all of a sudden, she decides to do the right thing "she won't reject me", and I should sing hallelujah and be perfectly satisfied with whatever bone I am thrown.
The facts are still the same. She doesn't find me attractive. I know this is true because when she does (after a few drinks too many), and this is very rare, she is all over me, inhibitions thrown to the wind.
I don't expect her to be that way all the time, but it is hard to hide if you are really attracted to someone. It is equally difficult to fake interest where there is none.
If she is operating from fear, it would have to be from my intensity. I have never harmed her physically in any way, or even threatened. Maybe she thinks I will blow from her explanation of her feelings. Hell, maybe she had an affair and it has been haunting her. If the issue with her is fear, I have no earthly idea what it could be to cause miscommunication of these proportions and duration.
Also, her grievances with me, as defined for the "decade of the desert" were minor, or she didn't communicate whatever great harm I could have done to justify the extremeness of her disaffection toward me.
Essentially, we have made little progress, although we have crossed what many here consider the 'milestone' of a SSM in a return to sexual activity, we still have many days journey ahead of us.
I have no idea where her "safety zone" is. I didn't think we were operating with boundries on what we could discuss, that is until the plate throwing event. Last night, I tried to discuss the latest book she has read - the one on the plate by the way, and she responded that she didn't want to discuss it since she hadn't read the counterpart book (what women want men to know). She said she was still processing it. I read both books. I have no idea just what there is to process. Both discuss well known issues between women and men. Both books are mostly accurate in both scope and approach toward a resolution. All I can figure is that she doesn't want to face the facts. Maybe she saw too many familiar points in the list of "turn offs". If she didn't see them, then I doubt we will ever get this resolved.
I am very weary of trying. I have a lot of other ongoing projects. Most include her. It is hard to try and build a really good life that encompasses both spouse's passions, hobbies and comfort. It is nearly impossible to do that if one spouse is not willing, or makes less than a wholehearted effort. Maybe she is struggling to find a place to love me with abandon. That would mean that she is lying to me about where we are now. Maybe that is okay with her in the same way she lied about her orgasms 20+ years ago. I don't know why whe wouldn't tell me about that or why it was an issue. All she had to do is tell me and my reaction would have been the same, only years earlier. That reaction was to work with her until she could routinely reach orgasm. I may of been young and stupid, but I have always tried to be a good lover. I obviously have some trust issues. If she would hide something as important as an orgasm from me for years, then why not other things.
Maybe she thinks I stink, or I am ugly or have bad breath. Maybe my feet are too big or I am an egotist with extreme levels of self deception. Whatever it is, I wish she would stop "sparing my feelings" and get the issues out in the open. I have certainly been open about mine. I thought ladies wanted men who were open and honest...
If she has trust issues with me, I have no idea what they could be. What you see is what you get. I stopped playing mind games and being the "international man of mystery" long, long ago. That was fun when I was young, and I had lots of female friends, but I have never played sex games, even back then except for one time. I played mind and sex games with a girl friend who was 17 years old. I learned that It is entirely too easy to destroy someone by simply having no reagrd whatsoever for their feelings. I manipulated her, took her virginity and dumped her when I was through playing. I still hate what I did to her, and she still hates me. The point is that my wife should know that I am being upfront with her. I have a history of being upfront, possibly even brutal with the truth sometimes. Why she would have trust issues with me, I dont' know.
I have done everthing I know to do. Taken advice from books. I am very aware of a womans needs. I have studied just about everthing I can find regarding how to treat her. I am still as lost as to any signs of causal effects, even casual ones, from application of the 'rules' as set forth in many treatises on the proper treatment of a woman, as I was 10 years ago. Maybe I am too nice. Maybe I need to get mean and treat her like dirt. Maybe I need to just give up and treat her to the greatest of insults, total disregard of her as a person.
Having said all that. I still don't want to hurt her. I wish that I could just accept things as they are and be happy. It won't happen. I know myself better than that. The real kicker is finding someone else that I could care about as much, or respect as much. That challenge keeps me searching for ways to fix what I have now...
Other than passion, inhibition and desire as they relate to sex, we get along just great.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: Other than passion, inhibition and desire as they relate to sex, we get along just great.
See, I have a real problem with this statement. I don't think this can be true or accurate. Maybe YOU think you get along great; but if you were getting along as great as you think you are, you wouldn't be having any problems with sex.
I don't know that your wife finds you unattractive, and I sure wouldn't look to the drinking thing as your proof. I used to drink to get 'in the mood' because I knew that was what my H wanted. Didn't have anything to do with whether I found him attractive or not. He's a great looking guy.
The kind of sex he wanted to have I found degrading and humiliating, but because I 'loved' him, I obliterated my mind so I could try to be for him what I thought he wanted me to be. I look back on that now and find it all very sad.
Your wife, it sounds to me, is doing all she can to try and be the woman you want her to be, AND be the woman she is comfortable being. The two are conflicting in a major way. She, in essence, is serving two masters, and it is causing her endless drama, heartache and sorrow.
I know you want her to be truthful and honest with you, but understand how difficult it is to be honest with others if we cannot even be honest with ourselves. It is an extraordinarily hard thing to do. She has not drawn boundaries with you or herself, and you sit there scratching your head when she explodes at you because you didn't see the line, or even know one was there.
I think your wife, for most of your married life, has lived to please you and when she found out she could not do that, felt as though she had failed. I don't think that she understands that she cannot please you, she must please herself, and she has never taken the time nor the necessary steps to discover what in fact pleases her, who she is, and what she wants to be, and then have the courage to OWN that. How can she honestly communicate anything to you if she doesn't even know this herself?
It isn't anything to be ashamed of... it all sounds very easy, but it is SO very hard, scarey and sometimes painful to do. But the work is worth the effort because once you do it, there is no more damn GUILT, SHAME and DRAMA.
I think this could be where your wife is stuck. Have you done this work yourself? Are you sure?
You have said this before, that the women needs to dicover herself, to find what she wants. I think this impacts my wife a little. She has told me many times that she really does not care if she ever has sex again and appears to be happy with that. She tells me she will have sex to meet my needs. And what really baffles me is that she REALLY enjoys INTENSE orgasms when we actually do it. So if the wife has now FOUND herself, and really just does not want to be intimate or sexual, what is the guy supposed to do? It always seems to come back to divorce, does it not? It seems to me that when 2 people get married, they can not operate as if they are individuals, but rather they must find a way to make the UNION of the 2 people actually work. So rather then work to make ourselves happy, shouls we not seek to find those things that can make us BOTH happy? I am getting more confused here!!
Yes, CeMar, it would be nice in a marriage if you could do the things that make you both happy. That doesn't always happen. You are stuck in what 'should' be, rather than what is. If you accept your wife exactly as she is and stop trying to fix her or run her half of the relationship, where does that leave you?
It leaves you with decisions to make. It seems to me it is much easier for you to try and change your wife than it is to make a decision you don't want to make.
Your wife is not apologizing for who or what she is. She has told you time and time again. You just refuse to hear her. Now you can either accept what she has said and learn to live with it, or you can start making decisions that are best for you (you don't hear her apologizing for making decisions that are best for HER do you?) It doesn't necessarily lead to divorce, it doesn't necessarily NOT lead to divorce, but regardless, you can't control that outcome.
But again, if you don't start living your life because you love, honor and respect yourself, no one else, including God, is going to do it for you.
----Corri said:---- See, I have a real problem with this statement. I don't think this can be true or accurate. Maybe YOU think you get along great; but if you were getting along as great as you think you are, you wouldn't be having any problems with sex. -----
Well, I think it is as true as possible. If I have to do more than I am in order for her to gain some desire, then I would have to question the cost of doing it. We are already beyond the point of diminishing returns here.
----Corri said:---- I don't know that your wife finds you unattractive, and I sure wouldn't look to the drinking thing as proof. I used to drink to get in the mood' because I knew that was what my H wanted. Didn't have anything to do with whether I found him attractive or not. He's a great looking guy. --------
I don't look to drinking and the resulting amorous behavior as proof of anything other than she is capable of the behavior.
----Corri said:---- The kind of sex he wanted to have I found degrading and humiliating, but because I 'loved' him, I obliterated my mind so I could try to be for him what I thought he wanted me to be. I look back on that now and find it all very sad. ---------
I am sad for you. Those of us who have few inhibitions find sex very fun and comfortable. That is what I wish my wife could enjoy too. I wish that for you as well.
----Corri said:---- Your wife, it sounds to me, is doing all she can to try and be the woman you want her to be, AND be the woman she is comfortable being. The two are conflicting in a major way. She, in essence, is serving two masters, and it is causing her endless drama, heartache and sorrow. ------
Probably so, and what a dilemma that must be for her. I never maintained any knowledge as to how she might make a transition, rather that she must.
In a perfect world, that transition, while possibly painful, would do no long term damage. I don't believe that is possible for us. I didn't when I started this process, I don't now. I think that, as I mentioned months ago, I can either lower my expectations and accept what we have now, or blow it up and have nothing to show for it. My dilemma is the same as it has been - how to live with less - and like it.
----Corri said:---- I think your wife, for most of your married life, has lived to please you and when she found out she could not do that, felt as though she had failed. I don't think that she understands that she cannot please you, she must please herself, and she has never taken the time nor the necessary steps to discover what in fact pleases her, who she is, and what she wants to be, and then have the courage to OWN that. How can she honestly communicate anything to you if she doesn't even know this herself? --------
Oh, I agree that she is stuck in catch22 land, but I think that in reality - not the one that she perceives, but the one that exists around her, she actually has a drive, and desire and passion. They just remain unacknowledged. Maybe they are just too frightening for her.
------ Corri said:------- I think this could be where your wife is stuck. Have you done this work yourself? Are you sure? ------
It is basically where she is stuck. I have done the work on me, and I am sure.
I am also learning to expect little to nothing from anyone but myself. It is true that makes one jaded, but it sure saves a lot of disappointment. At least that way, you can be pleasantly suprised if after all your hard work, something actually does grow in your garden.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
