Anyway....I do want to let you know that I DO understand what you were looking for ... and that her answer struck you as wishy-washy and was therefore unsatisfying (hurtful? disappointing?). I just thought you should cut you BOTH some slack...
As for the idea of renewing vows...I think it's an awesome idea for the future but I'm feeling as though it may be too soon? I also think (and this is just my own warped sense) that it's the BS that should initiate something like that...not the LBS (wouldn't that be the ultimate in pursuit?). I guess optimally you guys get to the point where having a discussion about it feels natural.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Your thread seems to have locked up while I was preparing the following post. I hope you somehow stumble upon this.
Quote: I should add to all this how things are going today....
h has called several times... h volunteered to return a damaged pool vacuum and pick up some more supplies. h volunteered to pick up some new computer software. h admitted to doing these things because he 1. wanted to get it done 2. because I've got enough to do and it isn't easy going from store to store with the kids. in running these errands h has called at least 5 times. when I offered to get the software his response was...no this way when I get home we can all stay home. h even offered to finish vacuuming the pool when he gets home.
but still no mention of yesterday's conversation.
LL
If I didn't know better, I'd say you were listing a few positives about your H there. Nah, couldn't be.
LL, I've had some of the same thoughts regarding nice things that my W does that she also did during her A, and therefore discounting their value. For example, there were occasions in which my W wanted to go out with "the girls" (OG, naturally), and would approach me in the nicest, sweetest way to get my concurrence. I gave in every time, even though it meant never going out myself, and babysitting after a long week of work. Now, when my W asks for my concurrence on something, I would almost rather she be rude and demanding - the nice, sweet way reminds a lot of the old A days. But really, it's not fair to mentally penalize her whether she's sweet or rude, is it? I can't have it both ways. In your case, you're penalizing your H whether he calls in the morning or not, whether he kisses you goodbye or not. That's not fair, is it?
I also think you're being a little unfair about the flowers. My youngest boy likes giving my W flowers. On a few occasions I've picked up some flowers and let him give them to her. I figured it made him happy, and since she obviously knew who actually bought them, I would receive "credit" for giving them, even if I never said anything further.
I guess my point is that you are currently looking for reasons to minimize everything he does, rather than looking to "catch him" doing nice things. Yes, the little things he's doing may not seem like much, and he could be doing them as a cover, or without thought, but maybe you should consider the alternative - that these things are his little ways of showing love. He probably doesn't remember that he did those things during the A, doesn't realize the hypocrisy, so cut him a little slack. I'm sure my W has absolutely no idea that her sweet kisses and warm goodbyes can sometimes send shivers up my spine.
Back to sex (for me, it's always back to sex!). You said that your H read a part of DR, but that you'd given up with that since he didn't get very far with it. Hey, at least he was open to it a little. I still haven't gotten my W to read page 1 of "After the Affair" or DR. The book of Michele's I was referring to was "The Sex Starved Marriage". Wouldn't it be worth at least seeing if you could get him to read it? No harm in asking, right? Maybe you could get him to read chapter 1, and continue if he found it interesting.
I agree with others here. Your H sounds like a basically nice guy who is mostly (and and maybe willingly) blind to your unhappiness, but who wants your M to work and wants you to be happy. Don't give up just yet.
Just got caught up on your thread and buddy I have to say I've been there myself. You'll probably never get your W to say what you want to hear by probing like that. I know, I've tried and failed. For me it was definitely a cheeseless tunnel, but it took a long time to realize and even longer still to stop probing and parsing. If you keep up your DB efforts, your W will eventually find her own ways to express her committment. She's still there, she's not seeing or talking to the OM anymore, so don't get too impatient. It's been just over a year since last physical contact between my W and OM, and about 6 months since last electronic contact, and just in the past 2 months I've seen major positive changes in how my W talks about our R and future. You know what changed? I stopped probing for the answers I wanted to hear. Of course, YMMV, but you might consider trying another tunnel.
dcr
BTW, I'll be posting a new thread sometime today or Monday in Piecing and your input would be great.
Decided to journal a little here, since we had some bad moments two days ago and then patched things up a little last night.
Tuesday evening was date night. We went out with W's B and SIL. Had a good time, but both of us drank a little too much and just wanted to go to sleep. Wednesday morning, I initiated, but she thought it was too early and rejected me in a mean and nasty tone. An hour later, she felt bad, we discussed it, and we sort of got past it. We ended up having a quickie, which was OK, but it didn't feel much like love.
The day went generally pretty well. I gave her a backrub before we went to sleep. I had to get up early the next day, so I went to sleep cuddling her back while she laid on her side and watched TV for awhile. When I woke up, the TV was off and she was turning over toward me. Still almost asleep, I thought that she was giving me a goodnight hug, so I reached out to hug her. She angrily pushed my arm away and said something like, "just move over and let me sleep". I said "what's wrong, why are you being like this?" She said that she didn't have any room (I was on her side of the bed) and that she was "grumpy" (as if being grumpy is its own excuse).
I tried to let it go, but it nagged at me all of yesterday. This happens, sometimes, that she rejects my attempts at hugs, kisses, cuddling, or sex, in a mean and nasty way. Not often, just sometimes, but it's not something I can predict (and therefore avoid). Just for the record, even before the A, I have NEVER rejected her in the same sort of way (although to be sure, for years I rarely initiated hugs, kisses, and cuddling).
I didn't call her from work yesterday, and when she finally called me, it was an on-the-run call while she was driving around with the kids. Which only made me angrier - she should have known that I was angry and that we needed to talk and straighten this out.
For months now I've been trying to take the lead in straightening things out after an argument - letting things slide, saying I'm sorry first, or giving her the benefit of the doubt. This was born out of my thinking that I need to focus on the big picture (eyes on the prize), that winning her back was more important than winning an argument, or getting my way, or getting her to be sorry about something. I think that my being able to gracefully approach my W after arguments did help. Sometimes, though, my doing that feels like doormat or pursuing behavior. What I mean is, I'm not sure that she should respect me if I suck up when she is clearly the one who should be apologizing. Anyway, I just didn't feel like being the one to make the first move yesterday.
She did finally call back later, and I found out that the previous night she had fallen asleep herself while watching TV and had woken with her arm asleep because of the cuddling postion we were in. Feeling smothered, she turned over to get more comfortable. When I then reached out for her, she felt like I was being inconsiderate of her need for a little space so that she could sleep, and that was why she had yelled at me. So, as it turned out, we had both misinterpreted what the other was thinking. I had thought that she was trying to give me a hug; she had thought that I was intent on sleeping practically on top of her. She did manage an apology for the way she had spoken.
So, when I got home, she gave me a big overly dramatic hug and a slightly sarcastic, "honey I'm SOOO glad you're home". It was obvious that she was trying to suck up and make it all better. We both laughed.
Later, we had a discussion about how she had been feeling like she "couldn't" reject me (guess that's why I've gotten lucky so often lately), because she knows that my feelings are fragile these days and she didn't want to hurt them. That includes sex, but also cuddling (she can't get used to sleeping with my arm around her, the weight of it makes her uncomfortable after awhile; or she doesn't feel like she can change positions without waking up). Funny, I never used to like to cuddle, but now I actually sleep better and somehow more relaxed when I can feel her there in some way. I like it and wish she did too.
We also discussed frequency of sex, how there are natural peaks and valleys over time. We've been on a peak lately; my W would like to be able to reduce the frequency somewhat without making me angry or hurting my feelings. We discussed what would be the ideal amount for each of us, on average. For me, 4 or 5 times a week, for her 1 or 2 times a week. We settled on 2 or 3 times as sort of a general goal, but agreed that we wouldn't keep score from week to week.
On the one hand, it seems a little weird to have this discussion 8 years into our M. I mean, I don't think what we told each other came as any big surprise. We've always known that I have the higher drive. And I don't want sex to be a scheduled, non-spontaneous event. On the other hand, I think it's good for both of us to know what the other considers to be reasonable and desirable. I shared with her how it makes me feel when we aren't intimate often enough, and she shared how having it too often makes it harder and take longer for her to "get into it", and that she sometimes just doesn't have the energy for it. We've talked about some of these things before, but somehow last night it seemed like we both understood the other better. We also talked about how I am pretty much always the one to initiate stuff (sex, hugs, kissing, cuddling), and how I would really like it if she would do more of it. She said that I did so much, she never had a chance. Not true from my perspective (I see plenty of opportunity for her to initiate all of these things), but I know that I really need to give her the space to initiate on her own, and do my best not to get my feelings hurt if it doesn't happen according to my schedule.
She's also been feeling stressed out because of the kids, and she is really happy that the summer is ending so that they will be in school. I guess they've been bored and in her face a lot lately. I told her that I do want her to have free time, but that I struggle with that, since she might get bored (and therefore feel unhappy), and that the time would enable her to easily restart the A, if she were so inclined. She said she understood, but didn't know what she could tell me that she hasn't already told me to make me feel better about it. I said, "well, I know that you've said this before, but you could tell me again that the A is over forever". She looked at me and said, "the A is over forever". It felt GOOD, and I told her that I wouldn't mind if she told it to me again, every once in awhile. She said, "OK", but I don't think she understands even now my need for her to do this.
So, things are back on an even keel now, although it would seem that the frequency of sex, which for the last 6 weeks or so has been somewhere around my ideal of 4 or 5 times a week, is likely to diminish to about half that. I can be happy with that, especially if she starts initiated more (touching generally, but sex specifically). It was a good discussion and I feel better today.
Sorry about the length of this monster post. I just want to be able to remember some of these details in later days.
Hey, great to see you here again. I'll be looking for your thread; sounds like you've made a lot of progress and I'd love to hear about it.
I'm sure you're right about the not probing thing. I'm just so damn impatient, and I sometimes think it's just not in her to express what I really want to hear.
Quote: she should have known that I was angry and that we needed to talk and straighten this out.
I'm of course guilty of this as you well know but c'mon brian.... she should have known really now...she should just know when you are angry or bothered and don't say anything? well then perhaps you should have known that she was feeling smothered and was turning around to get a bit of breathing room.
ok that was put a bit harsh but the "should have known" just screamed at me.
another thing...concerning her not being able to sleep all night with your arm on her...though I love when my h initiates a cuddle in bed or a "spoon" as he likes to call it..after a while the weight of his arm on me is no longer a comfort but almost annoying and yes I at times do feel trapped as if any move I make will cause him to move and disrupt him. we've each gotten so ridiculous about it now that when either of us has to move either becuase it's too hot to cuddle or an arms asleep or whatever a statement of clarification is made "don't take this to mean anything, my arm is just falling asleep" etc. h also makes this note when sitting on the couches...if he happens to stay on the loveseat while I'm on the big couch he'll note to me that it's nothing personal he just needs to strech. I think he started pointing it out when I made a few comments about these things and how they sometimes make me think he's avoiding me.
Quote: For months now I've been trying to take the lead in straightening things out after an argument - letting things slide, saying I'm sorry first, or giving her the benefit of the doubt. This was born out of my thinking that I need to focus on the big picture (eyes on the prize), that winning her back was more important than winning an argument, or getting my way, or getting her to be sorry about something. I think that my being able to gracefully approach my W after arguments did help. Sometimes, though, my doing that feels like doormat or pursuing behavior. if it was working then why not continue it? What I mean is, I'm not sure that she should respect me if I suck up when she is clearly the one who should be apologizing. well let's see. there are clear times when one is wrong and one is right but does that really serve any purpose? for instance the other day with my h and the phone call..sure he was wrong to hang up on me, was wrong to push my feelings aside...but was I not also wrong for letting my thoughts and fears and insecurities start the "argument" in the first place? when such things occur (the typical missunderstanding or missinterpertations that lead to ill feeligs) being the one to "appologize" or "suck up" isn't always being a doormat, it simply means that you are recognizing your role in that particular "argument"
Quote: We settled on 2 or 3 times as sort of a general goal, but agreed that we wouldn't keep score from week to week
I'd be doing a dance for 2 or 3 times a week never mind settling for it. but I guess that's for you.
No Kidding LL...of all people YOU AND I had to read this first!!!
Jealous!!!
No, seriously, good communicating there Jethro! And for what it's worth, I HAVE to sleep with NO PART of my body touching another person. Now that's how I have to fall asleep, morning cuddles are another thing entirely!
Quoting LL: I'm of course guilty of this as you well know but c'mon brian.... she should have known really now...she should just know when you are angry or bothered and don't say anything? well then perhaps you should have known that she was feeling smothered and was turning around to get a bit of breathing room.
Yeah, OK, that was unfair of me. I guess I thought the situation was like your H's phone hang-up a few days ago - that this was not something I should have to bring up. She oughta just know that an apology was needed. If it weren't for the fact that I'm gone in the morning before she wakes up, it would have been addressed then. In retrospect, it all seems a little silly and childish of me.
Regarding the cuddling, I know I shouldn't take her rejection of it so personally. It's just that the situation used to be somewhat reversed, where I was the one who didn't like it and she did. Don't know really how that changed over the years. But, another idea I had the other night during our discussion (I didn't mention this in the previous post in order to keep it short. LOL!) was that we would meet in the middle of the bed and fall asleep there, rather than starting on her side. Then, when either of us tires of the cuddling we'll have the room to disengage and move over. She liked that idea. The only complication is that she always arranges her pillows just so (like the princess and the pea, a running joke in our house). So now she'll have to figure out how to arrange them to accomodate starting from the middle of the bed and then moving over (she'll need to go out and buy a few more pillows, I'm sure). Ah, all of these machinations seem so silly, and yet...
I'd be doing a dance for 2 or 3 times a week never mind settling for it. but I guess that's 
for you.
