Quote: Yeah, OK, that was unfair of me. I guess I thought the situation was like your H's phone hang-up a few days ago actually very different, I deal with h's exuse of it being too hot or needing to strech out for not "cuddling" with me or sitting on the same couch, but the "phone call issue" was a big one becuase it was more than the fact that he hung up on me, it was the fact that I needed someone to come with me to doc apt to watch the kids or to just watch the kids and he who took off from work one day to take ow to an apointment (mind you no kids needed sitting there) and that was how he "got caught" I was frustrated with the fact that he didn't even offer and when he "sensed" my frustration and I admitted to the "direct" cause of it...he handled the situation by getting pissy with me and eventually just saying "I gotta go" and hanging up...and not bothering to address it directly at a point later that day or the next until I brought it up and actually foolishly all I brought up was the fact that he hung up (can ya sense I'm not really done with that "issue" yet? - that this was not something I should have to bring up. in this case I think you did need to let her know that you were interperting her actions a certain way for clarification. She oughta just know that an apology was needed. If it weren't for the fact that I'm gone in the morning before she wakes up, it would have been addressed then. In retrospect, it all seems a little silly and childish of me kinda, sorta, but not really.
Quote: Regarding the cuddling, I know I shouldn't take her rejection of it so personally. It's just that the situation used to be somewhat reversed, where I was the one who didn't like it and she did. Don't know really how that changed over the years. things just change over the years, I wouldn't worry too much about it as long as you have open communication about it. wich it seems you do.
Quote: some of the best solutions are the silly ones
Have some bad news. I found out last Friday (the 22nd) that my W was once again in contact with the OG. I checked the computer keylogger file, which I hadn't done in a few weeks, and found a "call me" text message to the OG's phone number from our computer that had been made on the 14th. As far as I knew, except for one call in early July, she hadn't had any contact with him since late June.
I also discovered a new secret email account that my W recently started. She hasn't used it to email him or any other guy, and actually has one of our son's names as the password (which we also use for our main email account) but it's just more of a pattern of secrecy that just eats at me and worries me.
I haven't posted about all this until now because I've been very depressed about it, and I've been trying to wrap my mind around these latest developments. Also, I feel like a DBing fraud and failure. After I tell you about it, you may think that the outcome wasn't that bad and that I should be able to handle it better. But it's very depressing and confusing to me. It seems like I'm on a tightrope right now, between real improvements in our R and utter failure (divorce!). It could go either way.
To keep this to a reasonable length, I'll limit this post to the confrontation and the immediate aftermath, and post later on our R since then.
The Latest Confrontation
I'd have labelled this as Confrontation #x but I've lost track of what "x" is. How many times have I discovered continued contact with the OG since the 1st discovery in early May? 4? 5? 6? Anyway, soon after my W got home from work, I sat her down and told her that I was thinking about initiating a D (no lie there) and told her that she should use this opportunity to come clean and tell me anything she wanted to before I did. She admitted that he had called her shortly after our vacation (the end of July), that they had been talking 4 or 5 times a week on the phone since then, and that she had gone out to see him "3 or 4 times" since then during the day at his job sites (he's got a small landscaping business).
She insisted that she has not had sex with him and insisted that she hadn't even kissed him or held hands with him. She said it had been a little awkward being with him since she had established these boundaries, but that she still enjoyed being around him. She said that she had thought about sleeping with him, but that that would open a new can of worms that she didn't want, so she hadn't done that. She couldn't or wouldn't say exactly why she started doing this again, other than she had been a little depressed after our vacation ended and she had enjoyed talking to him when he called. I asked a lot of questions about why she was doing this, about us, and about what the attraction to the OG was all about. I didn't get many straight answers, at least ones that satisfied me. She said that he wasn't better, just newer and different than me. I guess I should be gratified that she sees this, but in some ways it just hurts all the more that she can intellectualize that the A is stupid but carries on with it anyway.
When I asked her what her plans had been regarding the OG, she said that she didn't have any, that she had just been living in the moment and not thinking about the future.
I asked her what she wanted to do now. She said all the right stuff. That she would immediately end it with the OG, that she wants to be with me, that she wants to grow old with me, that she loves me, that she's sorry she hurt me again. She has said most of this stuff before, though, so it's nothing I can take to the bank.
I gave her a final ultimatum. That if I ever find out that there has been any contact between them whatsoever (and gave fair warning that I would definitely be checking), that I would file for D immediately, with no turning back. I think I'm finally at that point. I said it quietly, but if she didn't hear the anger, disappointment, and resolve in my voice, then she wasn't listening.
I tried to call the OG in front of her. She didn't want me to do this, but didn't try to stop me. He didn't answer. I called the next morning, however, while she was at work. I told him I knew that there was stuff going on (I wanted to hear what he had to say about it), he claimed that they had only talked on the phone. When confronted with my W's story, he said that her version was correct. So he lied, not too surprising. He said that he would back off, that he didn't want to cause any trouble, and that he would have no contact with her any more. I told him about the ultimatum (if he's evil, he'll realize that he's close to finally winning, i.e., getting us to D, and might continue to try to continue the A. I know this, but at this point, it's all up to her to do right, or not.). I also tried to explain that the lives of 2 little boys will forever be damaged if they continue down this path, knowing full well that an appeal to character is probably a cheeseless tunnel.
The main reason that I called him, other than to hear his version of what had been going on the last few weeks (he lied anyway, so that was useless), was mainly to send a message to my W. I hadn't previously contacted the OG, had never gone that far. I want to leave no doubt that I'm dead serious about this, that we're only a single "innocent" phone call, email, or text message away from disaster.
When she came home from work on Saturday, she came in to our bedroom where I was watching TV. She laid down with me and we fell asleep in each other's arms, sleeping for several hours like that. It felt real, and I know that she feels bad about what she did.
After we woke up Sunday morning, she initiated, and we were intimate. Afterwards, she whispered, "I love you, I really do".
So, it's not all bad, but I'm feeling very confused, and that my M is hanging my a thread with my W holding the scissors. More shortly...
Brian
P.S. No lectures regarding snooping, please. Actually, I think I'll start a thread on that subject soon. Sage, get your guns ready for that. Talitsa, dcr, you guys too.
Out of curiosity....did you start checking things again because you felt something different coming from your w? Or just because?
Quoting eskb: I haven't posted about all this until now because I've been very depressed about it, and I've been trying to wrap my mind around these latest developments. Also, I feel like a DBing fraud and failure.
Well, I can totally relate to the depression. Don't think this is trite but your w's behavior has NOTHING to do with you and your DB success. It has everything to do with her. There is NOTHING in your post to indicate "fraud" or "failure".
Quote: P.S. No lectures regarding snooping, please. Actually, I think I'll start a thread on that subject soon. Sage, get your guns ready for that. Talitsa, dcr, you guys too.
No lectures forthcoming. You're doing what feels right to you and that's AOK.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I wouldn't dream of giving you the 2x4 for "snooping". The unhappiness you must feel in discovering your W's continuing contact with OM is pain enough.
I think each and every situation has it's own dynamics and what applies well for most of us here on the bb, does not necessarily fit everyone all of the time. You made a judgement call and I believe that you are truly ready to "burn that bridge" should you discover any further infractions.
I am very slow to endorse ultimatums, however, I trust your intelligence and resolve in having issued one. Sadly, it may be the one thing that will finally awake your W; illustrate the seriousness of her foolish activities; and make clearer for her the risk she runs in gambling with the future of her family.
I'm having a very hard time bouncing back from this latest setback. I had thought that we had been having sort of a honeymoon-like period throughout July, that things were progressing very well. I had noticed a little distance in recent weeks, but thought it was just the natural progression of things. To have this happen when things seemed to be going so well is devastating. How many times have I said it, that I just can't trust how she acts toward me as a true indication of how things are for her? Things can seem to be going great, but she'll still lie to me and continue an EA (if not a PA) all along. I don't know if I can live like this, not being able to trust in anything.
I'm more depressed now than hurt. It hurts to know that this has been going on, but I mostly believe her that she has not been sleeping with him, so the pain is a little less than it would have been. Also, she has said the right stuff. She says that she loves me, does not love him, wants to be with me, etc. Somehow, even now, knowing full well that she could be lying through her teeth again, it helps soothe my feelings a little.
I can't escape a feeling of doom though. That it's only a matter of time before she does something again, be it a few days, a few weeks, or a few months from now. That nothing I do will ever be enough. That I cannot be enough for her. That perhaps there is something so wrong with her (mentally) that she will not be able to live up to what she has promised (there's a little history here: my W turns 40 in December. Her mother had a nervous breakdown when she was 40, and has had some mental problems which have only grown worse over the years since).
In some ways nothing has changed. I still go home after work, we have dinner and talk, there's still some affectionate touching, etc. But now, more than ever, I don't trust that it means anything. I don't know that I will ever feel a reasonable modicum of safety in this R, and I don't know that I can handle the stress of living without that, longterm.
Tuesday was my birthday, and we went out to a movie and out to a restaurant for drinks afterward. Had a very nice time, and it was the most relaxed I've been since our latest problems. My W shared some gossip about some neighbors who are having a hard time in their M due to possible infidelity on his part. She seemed to be fully able to understand how wrong and painful it is when it happens to somebody else. And she brought it up in a way that showed that she was being sensitive to my feelings. Maybe she was trying to demonstrate some understanding without being direct about it. Hard to say. Anyway, we came home and had sex and it was great.
But, I woke up yesterday again depressed. She got up and made coffee and took a long time coming back to bed (I had arranged to take yesterday off from work, and we had been planning to spend it together). I tried not to take it personally, but I guess I did, and we had an argument. We made up, but it was a little ugly for awhile. We later took the boys to an arcade, napped a little on the couch, and went into the spa in the evening. I tried not be be depressed, but I just couldn't snap out of it. Later, when we turned out the light to go to sleep, I told her that I was sorry that I was being so depressed, that I wasn't doing it to make her feel guilty (something she had alluded to in the morning's argument). She said that she knew, that it was OK to be depressed, that she doesn't expect me to get over all this that easily, but she just didn't know how to help. Since I don't know either at this point, I didn't pursue any discussion about that. We just said goodnight and went to sleep.
Today, I still have that feeling of doom, but I'm functioning. I guess there's nothing to do but take it day by day. I haven't given up all hope. I suppose there's still a chance for us. I won't change back into the bad habits I had before February. But I don't know that there's anything more I can do, but hope that she demonstrates some character and lives up to her promises. Wish I had a little more faith in that.
I don't know if I can live like this, not being able to trust in anything.
I can relate to this Brian.
I'm more depressed now than hurt.
Completely understandable. Allow yourself some time, allow her some time. There seems to be some positives moving beneath the rubble of the past.
My W shared some gossip about some neighbors who are having a hard time in their M due to possible infidelity on his part. She seemed to be fully able to understand how wrong and painful it is when it happens to somebody else. And she brought it up in a way that showed that she was being sensitive to my feelings. Maybe she was trying to demonstrate some understanding without being direct about it.
It would seem to me that that was her way (albeit diluted) of showing sensitivity, demonstrating some understanding, and possibly even apologizing for her own misdeeds.
Thanks for your words, and for sparing me the 2x4. Unfortunately, the snooping will intensify, and I may even resort to more extensive technologies such as automatic telephone call recorders or GPS tracking devices. Haven't decided on that yet.
The ultimatum was difficult to give, and it would be excruciating to follow through on. I can easily imagine a scenario where I catch her in contact with him again, and her begging me not to D her. It would be nearly impossible for me to make the final decision to break up the family. But the alternative would be to condone the A implicitly. Insisting that she ends all contact with him loses any meaning if all I ever do is cry about it for a few days and then return to status quo. And I just can't not snoop and continue DBing. Life can't just go on this way indefinitely. She's had time and chances to get over him and to decide what her real priorities in life are. If she can't stay away from him now, well, I'm not going to fight it any longer.
Quoting sage:Out of curiosity....did you start checking things again because you felt something different coming from your w? Or just because?
Mostly, just because. Despite what I thought was a lot of progress in our R since June, I've still felt a little paranoia about the OG once in awhile, and it's been a little worse lately because school for the kids is starting up again next week and she'll have plenty of time and opportunity to carry on an A, if that's what she chooses to do.
Quote: Well, I can totally relate to the depression. Don't think this is trite but your w's behavior has NOTHING to do with you and your DB success. It has everything to do with her. There is NOTHING in your post to indicate "fraud" or "failure".
I guess I now question how I've posted and had suggestions for others that I THOUGHT had been things that worked for me. Turns out maybe these things have not, in fact, actually worked. So maybe I don't have anything worthy to say to anybody about their situations. Worse, maybe I've given bad advice, with the arrogance of someone who thinks he knows it all. Nonetheless, Sage, thanks for your kind words.
That's the depression talking, Brian. You've given LOTS of great advice and insights. I've read them, I know. And so what if some of those things weren't "really" working in your sitch...doesn't mean they wouldn't help in another, right?
Brian, I'm just so heavy-hearted for you right now. If I were to discover CJ back in touch with OW at this point...well I just don't know.
I rather feel like you do...that it would be the last straw! We are finally REALLY piecing, continued deception would make and utter and complete fool of me!
I've actually had the same thoughts as you...at what point do you start enabling them to continue behaving this way? Where are the consequences?
I guess I just don't get where you wife's head is at. All I do know is that while things were starting to improve in our M, CJ was still (secretly) in an EA with OW too.
So I guess I CAN tell you that for me, over time, I'm gaining back trust in CJ that I thought would never come. It's taken time, reassurances, and NO FURTHER EVIDENCE of contact with OW.
You alluded to W's mom having breakdown at 40, what kind of disorders run in your W's family, Brian? Might have some insight there.
