Quote: hmmm...well, first off, sounds like asking your w. for reassurances right now is a cheeseless tunnel (so try to stay out of it). Secondly, wasn't your timing off? She had said somethings that sounded insulting, you were likely peeved...maybe not the best time to get reassurances? (I know, I know, it was the time when you probably MOST needed them....) If you MUST ask for reassurances, how about doing it when you two are feeling good about each other?
Picking the right time for any R talk is very tough. Don't want to spoil things when things are going well, and don't feel the need to find out what she's thinking. When things are not going well, that's the time when my need to know is the greatest, but obviously that's not the best time for a heart to heart. Maybe I should try infrequent, time-limited, but planned-in-advance R talks. The time-limited aspect is important too - while I'd prefer to hash things out until they're fully hashed, my W grows more and more annoyed the longer the talks go on.
Quote: eskb << In response to a specific question, she said that she is committed to trying to make our M work. Notice the "trying to". That's not the same as "committed to making our M work", is it? In fact, "trying to" changes the whole meaning. It's not really a commitment at all. >>
My 2 cents (uncensored) is that you're reading WAY TOO MUCH into this. Your w. CAN'T MAKE your m. work. She can TRY to but do you really think that she can MAKE it work? Honestly, I think I would have answered the question in the exact same way she did...and I don't think one can doubt my commitment to my m
OK, maybe I'm parsing her language too closely here. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. I shouldn't get in a tizzy over every misspoken syllable. But do you see what I mean about how the words "trying to" changes a seeming commitment into a weak "maybe"? Would you give someone a loan if they said, "I agree to try to pay it back"? Yes, on the one hand, trying is all you can do, but commitment is all about performance, not effort. I know that I'm pushing too hard for language being a perfect translation of thought, but still...
Quote: You also know that you can't MAKE her sorry...and trying to control it may make her very, very resistant to coming upon her regret by herself. Also, don't forget that she may be protecting herself...from feeling the unbelievable pain of what she's done...
I suspect that the more you push this, the more she'll push back....
Yes, you are absolutely right. I can't push on this, gotta let it happen (or not happen) at its own pace. Somehow, I've got to let it drop. I just keep thinking that if we could just get past this last major hurdle...
Quoting KAW:I, too, believe it stems from the fact that she is not remorseful either about having an A with this particular OM. She feels she is giving up "true love" by not being with him. She is still grieving for herself and for what she feels she is giving up. As long as she is focused her own grieving, she is not likely to comprehend the depth of the hurt she has caused me or the damage she has done to our R. Not until if or when we reach the stage where she is totally content and happy in our M, will she fully understand to the extent of what she did ... came so close to jeopardizing what she has.
Sorry, I don't have much to offer as I seem to be wondering around in the same forest...
I think perhaps, as much as it sucks, that my W may still be grieving a little for what she is giving up. I continue to hope that someday she will fully understand the full extent of what she did, but I fear that someday will never come. Anyway, great to hear from you, KAW.
Quoting eskb: OK, maybe I'm parsing her language too closely here. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. I shouldn't get in a tizzy over every misspoken syllable. But do you see what I mean about how the words "trying to" changes a seeming commitment into a weak "maybe"? Would you give someone a loan if they said, "I agree to try to pay it back"? Yes, on the one hand, trying is all you can do, but commitment is all about performance, not effort. I know that I'm pushing too hard for language being a perfect translation of thought, but still...
Brian -- Honestly? I see what you mean and I still disagree
The difference between your loan example and the conversation with your w. about your m. is that the LOAN is entirely within one persons control to pay back or not pay back. Your w. CAN'T make the m. work on her own. She really can't. I don't know....I may completely wrong about her intent, too, but I don't think it's weak or ineffective or whatever for her to have used the word "try". I'm "trying" to make MY m. work...I'm NOT making it work. Really.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Sage, Please go to our friend JPsDevotedWife's thread: "R has taken a nose dive" in the Newcombers forum. I'm to inept to help her...and she REALLY needs some good and wise advice today. Thank you. T2
Quoting Sage:Brian -- Honestly? I see what you mean and I still disagree
The difference between your loan example and the conversation with your w. about your m. is that the LOAN is entirely within one persons control to pay back or not pay back. Your w. CAN'T make the m. work on her own. She really can't. I don't know....I may completely wrong about her intent, too, but I don't think it's weak or ineffective or whatever for her to have used the word "try". I'm "trying" to make MY m. work...I'm NOT making it work. Really.
Before conceeding that you make a strong argument, let me take one more crack here. When getting married, we make vows, of faithfulness, love, trust, "for richer, for poorer, in sickness, and in health...so long as we both shall live". It's not a commitment to TRY (i.e., a commitment of attitude), it's a commitment to DOING (i.e., a commitment of action, a commitment of being). No, my W can't make the M work on her own (although, come to think of it, from my perspective, she holds a tremendous amount of power in making it happen), but if her attitude is one of simply "trying", that carries with it an escape clause ("hey, I tried").
Have you ever known someone who got married thinking of it as a trial marriage? I have. Their thinking is, we'll try it out, and if it doesn't work, we'll get a D. It's a strange and uncommitted "commitment", isn't it?
All of that said, you make good points, and I certainly shouldn't be overanalyzing every damn word (like I just did).
On a separate but related topic, I've been feeling like I'd really like to ask my W if we could renew our vows. I want to do that for several reasons. First, in an effort to re-establish them and give them meaning again. The vows as they stand currently (broken) don't really mean anything now. If I break them, well, I'm just paying her back. If she breaks them, well, that's just continuing what's already happened. It's almost like I feel D'd already. In a legal (or perhaps religious) sense, the contract, once broken, is null and void. I feel the need to re-establish the contract. Second, I want to somehow try to regain a sense of the specialness (for lack of a better word) of our M that was completely wiped away by the A. Maybe "specialness" is a lost cause, and can never be had again. I don't know. Have you (or anybody else) had your vows renewed, or thought about it?
In any case, I don't think I would bring up the subject yet. We're probably not ready for it. But it's been on my mind a lot lately and I'd like to get your opinion.
During our talks over the weekend, I said to my husband that after we begin to live together, if things didn't work out, we could STILL get divorced knowing we'd tried everything.
My purpose was to show that it was a win-win situation.
He responded, "No, we WILL make it work."
I guess in his mind, once he takes the leap to living with me again, there's no doubt that we will do whatever we have to. He won't accept failure.
Which is nice...but still a bit scary...I feel lots of pressure. Scared I'll screw up.
I am SUCH a fence sitter, I love seeing two divergent points of view and being able to agree with both!
A few folks have mentioned the vow renewal thing.
I think it's a great idea...not sure if it would ever happen in my sitch, it would certainly have to be CJ's idea and proposal but to be honest, right now??? I'm not so sure I'd agree!!!
I'm not so sure I wouldn't feel like a phony doing that when I still harbour doubts and resentments. But, perhaps, some day in the future....
Quoting Sage: I went back and reread your first post on this topic...you said "in response to a specific question", w answered....
If you care to share, what was the specific question?
I wish I could remember exactly, but I don't. As best I can recall, I think I asked her how she felt about our M, and her answer (whatever it was) seemed unsatisfactorily vague to me, so I then asked her if she was committed to me, to which she said, "yes". Realizing that I really hadn't asked the question in a way that would provide more information (i.e., being "committed to me" could have meant anything from a weak, "committed to not leaving", to the more ideal "committed to making this the best M ever!"), I then said, "what are you committed to?", to which I got the "trying to make our M work".
